Helpful ReplyPops when turning effects on and off during playback?

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lahatte
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2017/03/19 05:26:17 (permalink)

Pops when turning effects on and off during playback?

Does anyone else have this problem? It would be nice if Sonar would ramp the volume for effects on/off switching.
 
#1
coltpeacemaker
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 06:15:45 (permalink)
Yes i get pops and clicks to when turning off effects sometimes too but when i use a ASIO driver instead off MME its alot less noticable! 
#2
lahatte
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 06:17:19 (permalink)
I am using the ASIO driver from Steinberg, UR44.
 
#3
coltpeacemaker
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 07:58:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ZincTrumpet 2018/05/04 14:07:30
I dont know if this helps.....
 
The term "Dropout" is sometimes used interchangeably to describe a few different behaviors. Technically a dropout is when samples are dropped during playback and/or recording resulting in the transport stopping. Sometimes the term "dropout" is mistakenly used to describe events not sounding audibly despite the transport passing over them, or it is used to describe an audible stutter, click or pop during playback.

There are many very in-depth procedures for tracking down what might be causing performance related dropouts and audible artifacts, however the most common causes of these behaviors are listed below.

Before proceeding, make sure your Cakewalk software is correctly configured for use with your sound card or audio interface. We have recommend settings for many devices in our Audio Hardware Setup Guide. We also recommend updating your sound card or audio interface's drivers to the most recent version available from the manufacturer's website.

Audio Driver Latency/Buffer Size Needs to be increased:

If you are experiencing dropouts in the sense that the audio engine is completely stopping and your Cakewalk software is reporting "DROPOUT" in its Control Bar or Status Bar, then you should try increasing your sound card's latency settings by doing the following:
  1. Go to Edit > Preferences > Audio - Driver Settings (Options > Audio  > General in legacy products)
  2. If you are using WDM/KS or MME(32-bit) drivers, try bringing the Buffer Size slider to the right towards "Safe"
  3. If you are using ASIO drivers, click on the ASIO Panel button. This will launch your sound card's proprietary control panel.

    NOTE: for the majority of dedicated audio interfaces you will want to use ASIO drivers for the best stability. This can be applied by going to Edit > Preferences > Audio - Playback and Recording (Options > Audio  > Advanced in legacy products) and setting the "Driver Mode" to ASIO.
     
  4. Try increasing your buffer settings from the ASIO Panel
  5. If the ASIO Panel button does not launch your device's control panel, try accessing it from the Windows Control Panel or from the Windows Task Bar.
  6. Click Apply and then OK (if available) to apply any changed settings
  7. Re-launch your Cakewalk software and then test performance again
 
Hard Disk Buffer Size Settings Need to be increased:
 
If you are experiencing dropouts in the sense that events that aren't sounding and/or you are hearing pops and clicks at random points in playback, then this behavior may be related to your hard disk buffer size settings. Typically when this is the case, projects containing more tracks and more demanding virtual instruments that load large sample libraries will exhibit more clicks and pops then simpler projects with lower track counts.
 
Try increasing your Cakewalk software's hard disk buffer settings by doing the following:
 
  1. In your Cakewalk software, go to  Edit > Preferences > Audio - Sync and Caching (Options > Audio  > Advanced in legacy products)
  2. Try increasing your Playback I/O Buffer Size and Record I/O Buffer Size. Typically you will want to increase these settings in double increments. For example, settings such as 128, 256, 512, 1024 and 2048 are recommended.

    NOTE:  It is not recommended to select "Enable Read Caching" and "Enable Write Caching". Choosing either of these options lets your software use the Windows disk cache while reading or writing audio data. Your software will usually perform best  with all caching disabled, which is the default setting. If your computer has an older IDE disk controller, or a disk controller that does not use DMA transfers, enabling caching may improve audio performance.
     
  3. Click Apply and then OK (if available) to apply any changed settings
  4. Re-launch your Cakewalk software and then test performance again
Ultimately, the larger the hard disk buffer size the easier it is for your hard disk to stream audio files with stability.
 
If neither of the above help, then you may want to look into more hardware specifics with your computer. There is a free utility called DPC Latency Checker that can test your system for DPC latency spikes. Essentially, if your system is experiencing these spikes, it can be prone to clicks and pops and dropping audio samples. DPC latency spikes can interfere with all real-time audio and video streaming applications on your computer. Try downloading the free utility at http://www.thesycon.de/deu/latency_check.shtml
 
A common cause of DPC Latency Spikes on laptop computers is built-in Wi-Fi adapters. Per the suggestions in the link above, you might consider temporarily disabling your Network adapters from the Windows Device Manager to reduce your overall DPC Latency and reduce the amount of clicks and pops. More detailed information in regards to how to use the utility and suggested measures to take can be found at the link above. 
 
Lastly, you should strongly consider disabling any services that are unnecessary for recording that run on your computer in the background (such as anti-virus, anti-spyware software, gadgets and auto-updates).
 
#4
slartabartfast
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 10:36:57 (permalink)
coltpeacemaker
I dont know if this helps.....
 
The term "Dropout" is sometimes used interchangeably to describe a few different behaviors. Technically a dropout is when samples are dropped during playback and/or recording resulting in the transport stopping. Sometimes the term "dropout" is mistakenly used to describe events not sounding audibly despite the transport passing over them, or it is used to describe an audible stutter, click or pop during playback.




I think you will find that the term dropout in reference to audio in general means a brief/short break in the audio signal stream. The term was in use during the analog tape era where it was commonly caused by defects in the magnetic coating. In the digital age it is rarely due to damage to a hard drive, but more commonly due to a buffer running out of data due to lags in processing. In the latter case, the data may still be available, but it is not being delivered at the necessary minimum rate. That will only result in the SONAR transport stopping if it is significantly long/large. Missing data that is not audible because it is too small/short to register audibly, is still called dropout. Audible stutter, clicks or pops may very well be the result of dropout, although that is not the only cause of clicks or pops. More commonly clicks and pops are due to the sudden change in amplitude from sample to sample, as when a cut is made off the zero crossing, if several missing/effectively zero samples are followed by a return of a strong signal, or or a new signal is suddenly added or the current signal is abruptly modified. They can also happen if a sudden increase in bias occurs with analog equipment as when plugging in a cable or closing a switch, static discharge etc. 
 
I take it that your point is that describing an audible behavior/symptom as "dropout" can be misleading, because the same symptom can have multiple causes. In this we clearly agree, but the phenomenon/diagnosis of dropout is specific, although the same cause can have multiple symptoms. As a general principle of diagnosis it is best to describe the phenomenon being investigated at only the level of highest confidence. If you hear a "pop" then it is just a pop until you have determined its cause. If you can clearly demonstrate missing samples then you can describe it as dropout. 
 
The use of the term dropout to describe "events not sounding audibly despite the transport passing over them" is one that I have never heard, but clearly that would not be dropout. In fact it would cover recorded silence that is playing correctly as a series of zero value samples delivered on time. 
#5
chuckebaby
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 10:55:44 (permalink)
Not happening here.
 
 
post edited by chuckebaby - 2017/03/19 11:19:30

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#6
lahatte
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 18:48:55 (permalink)
Hi. This isn't a transport stopping issue. I get the random pop when turning on or off an insert effect. These are all soft synth tracks in this case, but I also get it with purely audio tracks.
 
My Steinberg ASIO driver set at the largest buffer setting still results in the pops when switching insert effects on and off. And with a long reverb on, it's crazy.
 
#7
lahatte
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 18:51:38 (permalink)
Is it not reasonable for the DAW to quickly ramp up or down the audio feeding the insert effect upon switching it? For example, when switching an effect off, instead of abruptly shutting it off, ramp the output from it down.
 
I know there are some plugins that do this internal to the plugin when its setting are changed. Those that do not ramp the volume can also lead to some pops on switching parts on or off.
 
 
#8
tlw
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 19:36:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby chuckebaby 2017/03/19 20:35:00
lahatte
Is it not reasonable for the DAW to quickly ramp up or down the audio feeding the insert effect upon switching it? For example, when switching an effect off, instead of abruptly shutting it off, ramp the output from it down.


And the DAW should do this over what time period?
What happens when the effect/ instrument in question has it's own attack and release envelope? Should the DAW just add it's own attack/release fade to that or try and second-guess the plugin?

Pops when switching on an effect are frequently caused by sudden gain changes. Some may be caused by the DAW glitching while recalculating what the new audio levels or wave-forms should be, but adequate buffering should (in theory) deal with that.

 
lahatte
I know there are some plugins that do this internal to the plugin when its setting are changed. Those that do not ramp the volume can also lead to some pops on switching parts on or off.


Some MIDI controlled hardware does this as well as software, e.g. by having a hidden attack time which means the shortest possible attack is greater than zero to hide the sudden gain change. Unfortunately it also leads to smeared transients.

If the plugin has a wet/dry balance control then running it set fully dry until it's needed to be 'on' then using automation to set the balance 'wetter' can deal with the problem. As can living with the 'pops' while arranging the splitting the audio and placing that which is to be affected by the effect and the plugin onto a new track on which the pligin is left permanently running.

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#9
chuckebaby
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/19 20:33:36 (permalink)
could also be a sign of your audio card crapping out when switching on high latency plug ins, sometimes not even high latency plug ins. Might help to share some details (soundcard) or we can just fill up a page or 2 and keep guessing.
 
I also agree with a lot of what TLW is saying

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#10
lahatte
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/23 23:41:24 (permalink)
tlw
And the DAW should do this over what time period?


How about 4 samples. :)


This popping is a problem because when trying to make adjustments it is useful to disable a plugin and then enable it (A-B comparisons, etc.). I have never seen online videos demonstrating some plugin or whatever in protools doing this popping.
 
It could be an audio interface issue, I do not currently have any others to try. 
#11
lahatte
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2017/03/23 23:43:08 (permalink)
My current audio interface is the Steinberg UR44. 
 
#12
ZincTrumpet
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2018/05/04 14:09:18 (permalink)
Have you updated your drivers/firmware recently? I have had similar problems in the past with my UR242 which were solved by updating the driver.


Yamaha Steinberg USB drivers (v1.10.0) (December 2017):
https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/downloads_hardware/yamaha_steinberg_usb_driver.html 
 
UR 44 Firmware v2.1.2 (December 2017):
https://www.steinberg.net/en/support/downloads_hardware/downloads_ur44.html 

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#13
msmcleod
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2018/05/04 14:57:59 (permalink)
Could it also maybe due to significant changes in PDC with some plugins?
 
I'm not sure how well CbB will cope with a massive change in plugin delay during playback.
 
For plugins that have a constant latency regardless of whether they're on or off it's probably fine, but for those that reduce latency when they've got nothing to do... maybe CbB has problems coping with this in certain circumstances?
 
M.
#14
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2018/05/04 15:33:00 (permalink)
We handle bypassing PDC plugins so I doubt the clicking is related to that. 
 
This is not related to the audio interface. Which specific plugin do you hear this when bypassing?
Do you hear a click when bypassing or when unbypassing?

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#15
Cactus Music
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2018/05/04 16:37:21 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kamikaze 2018/05/04 23:14:33
Old thread alert. 
 
I actually expect to hear something when playing a song and messing with adding and subtracting plug ins or VST's. 
You'd have the same thing if you suddenly unplugged a cable in the analog world. 

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#16
Kamikaze
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2018/05/04 23:22:56 (permalink)
Cactus, I've seen you mention your midi guide before, but never checked it out. Just had a gander over my morning coffee. Very impressive, you really went for it. I wasn't expecting something so extensive.

 
#17
Cactus Music
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2018/05/06 03:03:19 (permalink)
Thanks, It saves having to explain stuff over and over, Now I just point people at it. I was hoping to carry on with a few more but haven't had the time. I'd like to learn how to make the videos too. Just a hobbie. 

Johnny V  
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#18
stratman70
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Re: Pops when turning effects on and off during playback? 2018/05/06 03:26:54 (permalink)
@Cactus
I have been using midi forever but always just used what I knew.  Your tutorial is excellent my friend. 
Always something to learn in the midi world.
Thanks 
Frank 

 
 
#19
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