Ona
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Portamento midi control
I understand Portamento is CC#5 -- I'm not sure if I'm having a blonde moment or what, but in a quick midi track trial (output to LiveSynthPro, not that it matters), I cannot seem to find such an animal. Pitch bend I can find, portamento I cannot.
Is it there & I just need to go find it? Is it NOT there & is something that needs to be somehow created? Feel like I should know this, but... anyway...
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Phrauge
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/05 19:53:15
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Open the Piano Roll View for the MIDI track. Look in the bottom left -hand corner under the piano keys. Click the drop down that says Velocity and choose Control. Go to the next drop down, that usually defaults to "0", and you should see it listed. (65)
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ghijkmnop
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/05 19:56:45
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CC5, I have discovered since I guessed while talking with you this afternoon, is actually Portamento TIME, so as Phrauge says--try 65.
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/05 20:23:52
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Well, I looked for both, but apparently it DID matter where I output the midi track -- neither one of them are options when I output to the LSP audio track. If I change my output to the keyboard, all kinds of controls appear (including both 5 and 65). Drawing all sorts of controller envelopes to see what does what for both #5 and #65. So far, no effect on what I hear. :/
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Phrauge
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/05 20:40:12
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I see what you mean. I just loaded a Rhodes sound font into LiveSynth and I only get 9 options, none of them Portamento.
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/05 20:51:24
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I'm not even getting any effect when I output to the keyboard. I know this is user error, just not sure what that error is.
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woodshedstudio
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 07:18:39
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It definitely will work - you may need to check that the synth/patch/program will "react" to the commands. Check the MIDI implementation for the synth to make sure that portamento is rcognized. At times it may need to be turned on for a particular program. I know that seems rather basic, but sometimes that is the problem...
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 09:06:03
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For #65, the only states are on or off. For my sound module, 0-63 = off and 64-127 = on. ORIGINAL: Ona
Well, I looked for both, but apparently it DID matter where I output the midi track -- neither one of them are options when I output to the LSP audio track. If I change my output to the keyboard, all kinds of controls appear (including both 5 and 65). Drawing all sorts of controller envelopes to see what does what for both #5 and #65. So far, no effect on what I hear. :/
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jim y
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 09:47:06
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Normally, you can only have Portamento with a generative synth type. Think of a basic analog monosynth - the oscillator pitch is proportional to a control voltage normally tapped off by a keyboard switch; all you need to have is a "slew" circuit (a capacitor and a resistor) to make the control voltage slowly change between notes.
Now, try that with a sample. Either the current sample is gradually sped up or slowed down to reach the new note or you have to be really clever and cross fade to the next notes sample somewhere between the pitch "slide". Neither of these options is particularly easy if the instrument is polyphonic. Is the new note meant to slide from the last one or is it entirely independant? No way to tell!
Not surpising that many sample based synths don't respond to portamento. It is implemented in Yamaha XG and I suppose it's the simple method of pitch bending the current sample. You can always use the pitch bend control anyway to simulate portamento.
If you are using an analog or FM synth sample, it would be far more realistic instead to use a soft synth version, these should handle portamento in the same way that the hardware versions did without the artifacts of a repitched sample.
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 10:00:51
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I thought Portamento was for legato, which is different than pitch bending.
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 10:09:21
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Another thing is that portamento requires more than one note. You are sliding from one note to the next. ORIGINAL: Ona
Well, I looked for both, but apparently it DID matter where I output the midi track -- neither one of them are options when I output to the LSP audio track. If I change my output to the keyboard, all kinds of controls appear (including both 5 and 65). Drawing all sorts of controller envelopes to see what does what for both #5 and #65. So far, no effect on what I hear. :/
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 10:20:55
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I'm new to this, but it's hard to believe that you can't slide using samples. Wouldn't that make sampling with brass instruments fairly useless? ORIGINAL: jim y
Normally, you can only have Portamento with a generative synth type. Think of a basic analog monosynth - the oscillator pitch is proportional to a control voltage normally tapped off by a keyboard switch; all you need to have is a "slew" circuit (a capacitor and a resistor) to make the control voltage slowly change between notes.
Now, try that with a sample. Either the current sample is gradually sped up or slowed down to reach the new note or you have to be really clever and cross fade to the next notes sample somewhere between the pitch "slide". Neither of these options is particularly easy if the instrument is polyphonic. Is the new note meant to slide from the last one or is it entirely independant? No way to tell!
Not surpising that many sample based synths don't respond to portamento. It is implemented in Yamaha XG and I suppose it's the simple method of pitch bending the current sample. You can always use the pitch bend control anyway to simulate portamento.
If you are using an analog or FM synth sample, it would be far more realistic instead to use a soft synth version, these should handle portamento in the same way that the hardware versions did without the artifacts of a repitched sample.
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 11:07:49
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ORIGINAL: woodshedstudio
It definitely will work - you may need to check that the synth/patch/program will "react" to the commands. Check the MIDI implementation for the synth to make sure that portamento is rcognized. At times it may need to be turned on for a particular program. I know that seems rather basic, but sometimes that is the problem...
I don't know of a way to make that happen with LiveSynth Pro. Any ideas?
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 11:09:22
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I got that -- put down a 2-bar C-D-Eb-D-C-D-Eb-D pattern when I was trying to make this work.
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 11:10:29
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Jim,
I reread your post and now I understand your point. It doesn't matter whether you are bending a note or sliding between two notes.
I still think there must be a way to accomplish this though. If there isn't, I feel like I might as well abort my plans to do sequencing.
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 11:16:36
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ORIGINAL: sync
I'm new to this, but it's hard to believe that you can't slide using samples. Wouldn't that make sampling with brass instruments fairly useless?
ORIGINAL: jim y
Normally, you can only have Portamento with a generative synth type. Think of a basic analog monosynth - the oscillator pitch is proportional to a control voltage normally tapped off by a keyboard switch; all you need to have is a "slew" circuit (a capacitor and a resistor) to make the control voltage slowly change between notes.
Now, try that with a sample. Either the current sample is gradually sped up or slowed down to reach the new note or you have to be really clever and cross fade to the next notes sample somewhere between the pitch "slide". Neither of these options is particularly easy if the instrument is polyphonic. Is the new note meant to slide from the last one or is it entirely independant? No way to tell!
Not surpising that many sample based synths don't respond to portamento. It is implemented in Yamaha XG and I suppose it's the simple method of pitch bending the current sample. You can always use the pitch bend control anyway to simulate portamento.
If you are using an analog or FM synth sample, it would be far more realistic instead to use a soft synth version, these should handle portamento in the same way that the hardware versions did without the artifacts of a repitched sample.
Some of that is over my head, but I think I get the idea. I take it this is why Reason synths play nice (generative in nature), and SF2s in LiveSynth Pro don't (sample-based)?? Based on this logic, would Triangle II respond to portamento? .....and Edirol Orchestral probably would not.... nor would Atmosphere, because it is sample-based as well, correct?
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 11:18:06
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ORIGINAL: sync
Jim,
I reread your post and now I understand your point. It doesn't matter whether you are bending a note or sliding between two notes.
I still think there must be a way to accomplish this though. If there isn't, I feel like I might as well abort my plans to do sequencing.
It is frustrating, when you're talking about strings, brass, percussive bass, etc. What a pain in the a$$.
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 11:19:50
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How do you check if a patch will react to a controller message? ORIGINAL: woodshedstudio
It definitely will work - you may need to check that the synth/patch/program will "react" to the commands. Check the MIDI implementation for the synth to make sure that portamento is rcognized. At times it may need to be turned on for a particular program. I know that seems rather basic, but sometimes that is the problem...
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 11:42:13
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 12:45:24
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How about Style Enhancer?
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losguy
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 12:51:35
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ORIGINAL: Ona
ORIGINAL: sync
Normally, you can only have Portamento with a generative synth type. Think of a basic analog monosynth - the oscillator pitch is proportional to a control voltage normally tapped off by a keyboard switch; all you need to have is a "slew" circuit (a capacitor and a resistor) to make the control voltage slowly change between notes.
Now, try that with a sample. Either the current sample is gradually sped up or slowed down to reach the new note or you have to be really clever and cross fade to the next notes sample somewhere between the pitch "slide". Neither of these options is particularly easy if the instrument is polyphonic. Is the new note meant to slide from the last one or is it entirely independant? No way to tell!
Not surpising that many sample based synths don't respond to portamento. It is implemented in Yamaha XG and I suppose it's the simple method of pitch bending the current sample. You can always use the pitch bend control anyway to simulate portamento.
Some of that is over my head, but I think I get the idea. I take it this is why Reason synths play nice (generative in nature), and SF2s in LiveSynth Pro don't (sample-based)?? Based on this logic, would Triangle II respond to portamento? .....and Edirol Orchestral probably would not.... nor would Atmosphere, because it is sample-based as well, correct?
Correct. And some synths reserve portamento only for Monophonic mode (no immediate examples for you, just recollection). This, I believe is because poly port, the way it has been generally implemented on synths, is not useful (unless you're just playing a monophonic run in poly mode). So you could check the synth (DXi, hardware, or whatever) to see if they imposed this restriction on you. Portamento in Polyphonic Mode, done right, has been a bit of a Holy Grail for me ever since poly synths came out. By "done right", I mean that they have an algorithm to analyze the position-order of the notes in the chord, so that when you change to a new chord, the middle note (say, of a three-note chord) stays in the middle and the end notes stay on the ends. The way it's always been done (please prove me wrong with a synth example, please) is to assign the new notes at pseudo-random. This causes a cacophonous slide of notes, sliding all over each other. I call the proper algorithm a Holy Grail because it's not easy, for instance, what happens on the transition from a three note chord to a four-note chord. Also, in real play, no one hits all the notes at the exact same time, so you have to involve a gating time for the chord. Anyway, it's difficult, but not impossible.
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losguy
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 12:57:34
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ORIGINAL: sync
How do you check if a patch will react to a controller message?
ORIGINAL: woodshedstudio
It definitely will work - you may need to check that the synth/patch/program will "react" to the commands. Check the MIDI implementation for the synth to make sure that portamento is rcognized. At times it may need to be turned on for a particular program. I know that seems rather basic, but sometimes that is the problem...
Short answer: woodshed already told you. Now, don't get woodshed mad, or he'll live out his name on you!! I don't know of a simple way to check, other than looking at the MIDI implementation for that synth (yeah, read the manual). A way to verify if your controller is at least sending the CC information is to look at the MIDI event list, or pull up a MIDI utility like MIDI-OX and check the MIDI event stream. MIDI-OX is useful because it's real-time and outside of SONAR with all the blinders/event filters off.
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Ona
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 12:59:24
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ORIGINAL: losguy
This causes a cacophonous slide of notes, sliding all over each other. LOL -- I'll bet -- which would be hilarious for all of about 30 seconds, and only the first time. I'd probably end up splitting the three/four parts into separate midi tracks to avoid that kind of headache though.
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sync
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 13:05:08
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My manual shows that the module is capable of receiving a portamento mesage. But the patch list doesn't say which contollers each patch responds to. So I still don't know how to do figure that out apart from testing every controller on every patch. ORIGINAL: losguy
ORIGINAL: sync
How do you check if a patch will react to a controller message?
ORIGINAL: woodshedstudio
It definitely will work - you may need to check that the synth/patch/program will "react" to the commands. Check the MIDI implementation for the synth to make sure that portamento is rcognized. At times it may need to be turned on for a particular program. I know that seems rather basic, but sometimes that is the problem...
Short answer: woodshed already told you. Now, don't get woodshed mad, or he'll live out his name on you!!
I don't know of a simple way to check, other than looking at the MIDI implementation for that synth (yeah, read the manual). A way to verify if your controller is at least sending the CC information is to look at the MIDI event list, or pull up a MIDI utility like MIDI-OX and check the MIDI event stream. MIDI-OX is useful because it's real-time and outside of SONAR with all the blinders/event filters off.
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losguy
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 13:35:43
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ORIGINAL: Ona
LOL -- I'll bet -- which would be hilarious for all of about 30 seconds, and only the first time. I'd probably end up splitting the three/four parts into separate midi tracks to avoid that kind of headache though.
That's the best way to do it reliably, and SONAR is the perfrct tool to do it with. I'm just pining away for the live algorithm so that I can use the effect, well, live.
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losguy
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 13:41:10
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ORIGINAL: sync
My manual shows that the module is capable of receiving a portamento mesage. But the patch list doesn't say which contollers each patch responds to. So I still don't know how to do figure that out apart from testing every controller on every patch.
Yeah, that can get pretty cryptic, though I would expect "factory" patches to be set up with the standard set of controllers, if at all (pick from list of usual suspects): pitch/mod wheel, sustain, aftertouch, port, expression, breath controller (!), etc. I could be wrong, though, with your particular module. A graphical patch/performance preset editor comes in really handy for this kind of stuff.
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jim y
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 15:04:58
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Well, my first midi synth was a Korg X5 and that didn't implement porta'. The thing to do was to set the pitchbend wheel range for the maximum span you want to slide. I developed a technique of bending off the wheel and then fingering legato to the next true note, sort of like climbing a ladder? Not too difficult with practice (I'm no Liberace). ;)
Samples of course, sound odd when bent past a third or a fifth, but it's ok if you don't sustain too long at the end of the bend. You need to think about which way you're going - if you bend to a sustain then start with the end note bent to the start note so that when you reach the sustain, the sample is on it's natural pitch.
Thing with pitchbend is you can slide a chord.
Have found pitchbend needed anyway for brass lines, when you want a sleazy-loose feel; always start a little flat.
I think it's actually easier to record in with the bends and fine tune later in edit. I wouldn't want to play in straight and then put in the Bend CC's.
Pitch bend ought to work with any sample based synth - software or hardware.
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losguy
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 15:26:31
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Good advice regarding pitch inflections, but nothng can replace a hint of portamento on a searing analog lead synth patch. Variable portamento is even more fun.
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rageangel
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 19:16:59
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If I was a pretty girl would my questions get answere as well?
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ghijkmnop
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RE: Portamento midi control
2004/05/06 19:19:14
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If I was a pretty girl would my questions get answere as well? Of course. But that's not a prerequisite. <g>
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