Mosvalve
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Power Attenuators for amplifiers
Most of the time It's hard to get the sound I'm after because I have to have the amp too loud. Even though being loud is no problem I rather play at a decent ear saving level. I've been looking at power attenuators and could use any useful info about them. Are any of you using one? There are so many different ones with different features it gets confusing. I just want to preserve my tone and play at a lower volume.
Thanks
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mettelus
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/16 18:26:54
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Never used one, but after seeing a commentary by EVH stumbling upon low voltage supplies letting him run an amp at full settings without blowing his head off, a variac transformer is definitely a consideration. His "solution" was simply drop the voltage into the amp to get it to max gain. On paper that is simpler than what some power attenuators are doing (and less expensive in most cases). I forget offhand what voltage he ran, but was something like 80VAC.
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batsbrew
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/16 18:36:20
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i've used a weber mass lite power attenuator with my 60w mesa boogie markIIb head for almost 10 years now.
works great.
combined with a palmer pdi-09, i can do direct recording in the middle of the night,
with the attenuator maxed out,
but taking the full output off the amp thru the palmer first,
getting the full power output of the amp as if it were not attenuated,
then running the thru of the palmer into the attenuator, for monitoring at any volume i want.
any recordings you've heard from me in the last 10 years has been mostly the palmer.
the weber is just to control monitor volume.
for the purists, buying a low wattage amp for low volume recording is the best,
having a great master volume is second best,
attenuator on large wattage amp for volume control is 3rd.
but you'll never get the sound of big iron, using an attenuator, playing at low volume,
and not moving some air.
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anydmusic
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/16 19:09:50
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I used a Marshall Power Soak for a number of years worked really well enabling me to push the Power Amp section of my Valve Amp and use it at a sensible volume. Basically it acted like a Master Volume.
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Mosvalve
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/16 23:49:47
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batsbrew
i've used a weber mass lite power attenuator with my 60w mesa boogie markIIb head for almost 10 years now.
works great.
combined with a palmer pdi-09, i can do direct recording in the middle of the night,
with the attenuator maxed out,
but taking the full output off the amp thru the palmer first,
getting the full power output of the amp as if it were not attenuated,
then running the thru of the palmer into the attenuator, for monitoring at any volume i want.
any recordings you've heard from me in the last 10 years has been mostly the palmer.
the weber is just to control monitor volume.
for the purists, buying a low wattage amp for low volume recording is the best,
having a great master volume is second best,
attenuator on large wattage amp for volume control is 3rd.
but you'll never get the sound of big iron, using an attenuator, playing at low volume,
and not moving some air.
So I can do this with any DI box and use an attenuator for volume control right?
BobV ASUS Prime Z370-P - Intel Core i7+ 8700K 3.7GHZ 16GB Memory, Intel HD Graphics 630 GPU, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, , Sonar Platinum 64bit, Motu 828MK3 Hybrid, Warm Audio TB12 Pre, Warm Audio WA273 Pre, AEA RPQ 500 Pre, Warm Audio WA76 Compressor, Presonus D8 Pre, Tonelux EQ5P 500 Eq, Kush Electra 500 Eq, Lindell PEX 500 Eq, Yamaha 80M monitors with HS10W Sub, and a bunch of other good stuff. I have a Roland Juno-106 that's looking for a new home. PM me.
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batsbrew
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/17 15:15:45
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no, only a special di box.
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rsinger
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/17 16:51:07
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For the past couple years I've mostly used amp sims, but prior to that I used attenuators. I have Weber Load Dumps on a couple of my amps. For me part of the sound is speaker break up and if you attenuate too much you wont get that. I have a Victoria 508 and even around 4 or 5 it's pretty loud - I attenuate it about 20 percent and I still get speaker break up - going into a 12' Weber speaker, but it's a comfortable playing level.
I also have one on a PRS 20 and I don't really over drive the amp, but I can crank it a little higher so it's a bit fuller. The Weber Load Dump is passive and if you use too much attenuation it seems like you lose dynamics.
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batsbrew
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/17 17:04:28
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yea, load dump is different than the mass lite..
mass lite uses a speaker motor as an active load component...
moving air is the best.
when you can't move air, either DI to a IR loaded with speaker impulses,
or what i do, a specialized DI with a cabinet filter built in, ala palmer, Radial, etc.
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anydmusic
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/17 18:40:46
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rsinger
For me part of the sound is speaker break up and if you attenuate too much you wont get that.
This is a good point, especially as there has been a trend towards using more efficient speakers that "break up" at higher volumes. My suggestion here, assuming that the speaker break up effect matters, is to replace the speaker(s) with less efficient ones remembering to get one that is voiced to your taste. Speakers often play a bigger role in guitar sound that people realise.
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tlw
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/17 21:01:16
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I've been using a Palmer loadbox (which is a reactive rather than just passive load) and a PDI09 speaker sim DI box for a while without problems. I can't easily, if at all, tell the Palmer from a Celestion greenback or V30 in a cab, depending on the PDI09 setting and after adding a small amount of eqing.
Attenuators are different, they do affect speaker response to an extent.
As for running amps at reduced mains voltage it's not a way to extend the life of the valves, transformers or capacitors. It doesn't reduce the volume much if at all either, certainly not enough to run a 100W head wide open in a domestic setting. Instead it runs the valves in a plate-voltage starved condition which affects how they move into compression/distortion. Unless the amp is cathode-biased and so self-biasing, the power stage bias is going to need adjusting to compensate for the reduced plate and bias voltage, and dropping the voltage too far will make the heater coils operate inefficiently.
A better option for low(er) volume and earlier breakup is a smaller amp. Bearing in mind that the same speaker a 5W amp is about half the volume of a 50W one, and that difference isn't as great as you might think. Which is why sub-1W amps using what are normally used as pre-amp valves as the power amp side of the circuit are popular. Those you can crank, and are often pretty impressive.
Or just run a clean amp at low volume and use pedals for dirt.
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Mosvalve
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/18 04:13:53
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All of you have been very helpful. I think I'm going to stay pure and adjust my levels as needed. The amp I wanted to use attenuation on is a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I just ordered the Bugera V22. It's on it's way. I ordered it based on reviews and Youtube video's and is something I never do. I have always tried an amp before buying. I hope I made a good decision. Thanks for all the great info.
BobV ASUS Prime Z370-P - Intel Core i7+ 8700K 3.7GHZ 16GB Memory, Intel HD Graphics 630 GPU, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, , Sonar Platinum 64bit, Motu 828MK3 Hybrid, Warm Audio TB12 Pre, Warm Audio WA273 Pre, AEA RPQ 500 Pre, Warm Audio WA76 Compressor, Presonus D8 Pre, Tonelux EQ5P 500 Eq, Kush Electra 500 Eq, Lindell PEX 500 Eq, Yamaha 80M monitors with HS10W Sub, and a bunch of other good stuff. I have a Roland Juno-106 that's looking for a new home. PM me.
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rsinger
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/18 16:36:08
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batsbrew
yea, load dump is different than the mass lite..
mass lite uses a speaker motor as an active load component...
moving air is the best.
when you can't move air, either DI to a IR loaded with speaker impulses,
or what i do, a specialized DI with a cabinet filter built in, ala palmer, Radial, etc.
I have a Weber Mass, but the box (not the output), rattles and buzzes and I switched to the Load Dump. The Mass that I have has a driver in it, but not the speaker cone so it doesn't seem to be moving air - if it did it wouldn't be silent. It's not an issue for me I have various Marshall and tweed clones set up in my studio getting sounds that I like, but these days I normally use S-Gear.
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batsbrew
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/18 17:21:27
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rsinger
batsbrew
yea, load dump is different than the mass lite..
mass lite uses a speaker motor as an active load component...
moving air is the best.
when you can't move air, either DI to a IR loaded with speaker impulses,
or what i do, a specialized DI with a cabinet filter built in, ala palmer, Radial, etc.
I have a Weber Mass, but the box (not the output), rattles and buzzes and I switched to the Load Dump. The Mass that I have has a driver in it, but not the speaker cone so it doesn't seem to be moving air - if it did it wouldn't be silent. It's not an issue for me I have various Marshall and tweed clones set up in my studio getting sounds that I like, but these days I normally use S-Gear.
YES, as i said, 'speaker motor'. go here to learn more: https://www.tedweber.com/attenuator-faq/ my mass lite is dead quiet. sounds like you have something loose inside the shell.
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BobF
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/18 18:17:09
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Mosvalve
All of you have been very helpful. I think I'm going to stay pure and adjust my levels as needed. The amp I wanted to use attenuation on is a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I just ordered the Bugera V22. It's on it's way. I ordered it based on reviews and Youtube video's and is something I never do. I have always tried an amp before buying. I hope I made a good decision. Thanks for all the great info.
I've had my V22 for a few years. It's a great little amp, IMO.
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Mosvalve
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/20 01:23:22
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BobF
Mosvalve
All of you have been very helpful. I think I'm going to stay pure and adjust my levels as needed. The amp I wanted to use attenuation on is a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe. I just ordered the Bugera V22. It's on it's way. I ordered it based on reviews and Youtube video's and is something I never do. I have always tried an amp before buying. I hope I made a good decision. Thanks for all the great info.
I've had my V22 for a few years. It's a great little amp, IMO.
Bob this amp is a great amp. I can't get a bad sound out of it.(until I play) I don't think I'm going to need an attenuator now. I should be able to accomplish what I need to with this amp. I wasn't expecting this amp to sound so good at lower volumes. I'm glad I chose this amp.
BobV ASUS Prime Z370-P - Intel Core i7+ 8700K 3.7GHZ 16GB Memory, Intel HD Graphics 630 GPU, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, , Sonar Platinum 64bit, Motu 828MK3 Hybrid, Warm Audio TB12 Pre, Warm Audio WA273 Pre, AEA RPQ 500 Pre, Warm Audio WA76 Compressor, Presonus D8 Pre, Tonelux EQ5P 500 Eq, Kush Electra 500 Eq, Lindell PEX 500 Eq, Yamaha 80M monitors with HS10W Sub, and a bunch of other good stuff. I have a Roland Juno-106 that's looking for a new home. PM me.
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RSMCGUITAR
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/22 03:58:25
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Hey, I had a hot rod deluxe and ran a volume nob box in the efx loop. It may not be power tube breakup territory. But I could get more outta the amp at lower volumes using it
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Mosvalve
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Re: Power Attenuators for amplifiers
2017/07/22 13:40:16
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RSMCGUITAR
Hey, I had a hot rod deluxe and ran a volume nob box in the efx loop. It may not be power tube breakup territory. But I could get more outta the amp at lower volumes using it
I did the same thing but used a volume pedal but I wasn't happy with that.
BobV ASUS Prime Z370-P - Intel Core i7+ 8700K 3.7GHZ 16GB Memory, Intel HD Graphics 630 GPU, Windows 10 Pro 64bit, , Sonar Platinum 64bit, Motu 828MK3 Hybrid, Warm Audio TB12 Pre, Warm Audio WA273 Pre, AEA RPQ 500 Pre, Warm Audio WA76 Compressor, Presonus D8 Pre, Tonelux EQ5P 500 Eq, Kush Electra 500 Eq, Lindell PEX 500 Eq, Yamaha 80M monitors with HS10W Sub, and a bunch of other good stuff. I have a Roland Juno-106 that's looking for a new home. PM me.
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