Helpful ReplyPreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary?

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AdamGrossmanLG
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2016/01/12 11:40:05 (permalink)

PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary?

Hello All,
 
I am just starting to record vocals for my project.  I have never recorded vocals before and was wondering if I need a tube preamp to sit between the mic and the audio interface.
 
I have this right now, but I am unhappy with the way the "S" and "T" sounds through it, they aren't as crisp.  http://www.amazon.com/Presonus-TubePre-v2-Tube-Preamplifier/dp/B0072JBCTK/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1452616461&sr=8-1&keywords=presonus+v2
 
I replaced the tube with this one:  http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005Q1XR8U?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00
 
I do like the overall tone better using the preamp, but the "S" and "T" sounds are not crisp enough, I can't imagine anyone would like the way the "S" and "T"s sound... I have an example posted here:

https://www.dropbox.com/s...7ldelsz7/test.wav?dl=0
 
I split the two vocal takes with a short piano note.

before the piano is: mic -> audio interface
 
after the piano note is:   mic->preamp>audio interface
 
 
so, the question is, can I record professional sounding vocals without using a tube preamp?  

I should mention my audio interface is the Steinberg UR22
 
Thank You!
 
 
 
post edited by SilverBlueMedallion - 2016/01/12 11:52:47
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tlw
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/12 13:33:11 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/01/12 14:22:40
The short answer is that a valve pre-amp isn't necessary for recording anything. Not after the transistor became cheaply available in the 1960s anyway.

Most commercially recorded vocals have almost certainly been done through a solid-state mixing desk. Valves (or 'tubes' in USA English) pre-amps can add a bit of colouration that is almost impossible to get with a solid state transistor circuit and only emulated digitally to a certain point. But unless you want more valve-created saturation and over-drive than is usually used on vocals many plugins do a decent job of emulating the "valve sound".

Most of the time the mic pres built into interfaces range from usable to very good and if you can't get an acceptable result from them then changing to an inexpensive valve pre isn't likely to suddenly make things great.

Replacing valves can make quite a difference in guitar amplifiers, less in preamps where the audible effects of the valve are much less marked, apart from some valves are less electrically noisy than others. In both cases the circuitry surrounding the valve also plays a big part in the sound, and even if you know the characteristics of different makes of valve it's still a trial and error process finding the ones that you prefer.

My personal preference for a valve pre-amp, assuming it uses a 12AX7, would lean towards a New Old Stock General Electric 7025 or Sylvania or US Phillips equivalents. A current production small-plate JJ Tesla might also work well as they are very much like the old Mullards. But it's very much a matter of taste...

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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/12 14:10:47 (permalink)
thank you very much for this - I appreciate it.
 
So maybe I should go right from the mic into my audio interface and then use plugins.  hmmm...  
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/12 15:54:21 (permalink)
I should have also mentioned that the microphone used can make a huge difference to recordings as can a singer's mic technique (or lack of it :-) )

And sometimes the high-end mics aren't necessarily the best for the job. The SM57 is an industry standard for all kinds of things, and Michael Jackson apparently always used an SM58 from "Thriller" onwards because he liked how he could creatively use the 58's characteristic tendency to boost low frequencies.

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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/12 16:14:10 (permalink)
well for this sample i used the same mic.... i just feel the preamp is doing something to the "S" sound that sounds terrible IMO
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/12 16:17:53 (permalink)
That replacement tube is a very good quality with low noise and good gain. IF you want a brighter sounding tube I would suggest a Chinese 12AX7, which is probably the stock tube.

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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/12 16:24:02 (permalink)
ampfixer
That replacement tube is a very good quality with low noise and good gain. IF you want a brighter sounding tube I would suggest a Chinese 12AX7, which is probably the stock tube.




yes that was the stock tube.  I took it right out just because i was told it was crap.   
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tlw
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/13 03:08:49 (permalink)
Chinese valves tend to be noisy, gritty, very bright, harsh and distort quickly, some guitarists like them in higher gain Marshalls but I wouldn't regard them as pre-amp friendly.

The Tung Sol you say you're using is almost certainly better than the cheap Chinese things. I've a Tung Sol 12AT7 in my Fender reverb unit and it sounds pretty good there.

Out of the new-old-stock stuff you might find a GE or Sylvania 7025 is worth trying, they were in most US produced audio equipment for decades and do clean, crisp and bright very well. Phillips JAN can also be good but tend to be noisier. For modern production valves the Tesla 12AX7 is very good, as are JJs and Harma. Some modern valve production at least seems to have finally caught up with the old days.

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AdamGrossmanLG
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/13 09:15:12 (permalink)
yea but what it is doing to my "S" sounds really is undesirable.  I think I am going to return the preamp and tube.
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/13 11:32:19 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby SilverBlueMedallion 2016/01/13 11:59:24
It's not your imagination. Harmonic distortion does exacerbate "S"s and hard consonants. But it's so imprinted on our collective memory from decades of tube-processed recordings that we've come to expect it. That's why they still make tube preamps.
 
However, where vintage gear designs went out of their way to minimize distortion, modern designs tend to exaggerate it by boosting gain, "improper" biasing and setting plate voltages below the tubes' design specs. In deciding to emphasize those characteristics of tubes that were once considered drawbacks, they often go overboard with it.
 
Personally, I like to keep things as clean as possible going in, and then subsequently add controlled distortion as needed. That leaves you with the most mixing options. 


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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/13 11:47:27 (permalink)
Hi Bitflipper - thanks for the explanation!  So would you recommend plugging the mic right into the audio interface?
post edited by SilverBlueMedallion - 2016/01/13 12:00:04
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mettelus
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/13 16:57:24 (permalink)
bitflipper
 
Personally, I like to keep things as clean as possible going in, and then subsequently add controlled distortion as needed. That leaves you with the most mixing options. 




+1 to this, once you "bake" an effect into a signal, it is nearly impossible to remove it. If you ever get into that "hmmm, I would rather it have this effect instead," you have pretty much bought a re-tracking scenario. As a general rule, I will also record dry signals for the same reason Bit mentioned.

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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/13 20:40:01 (permalink)
mettelus
bitflipper
 
Personally, I like to keep things as clean as possible going in, and then subsequently add controlled distortion as needed. That leaves you with the most mixing options. 




+1 to this, once you "bake" an effect into a signal, it is nearly impossible to remove it. If you ever get into that "hmmm, I would rather it have this effect instead," you have pretty much bought a re-tracking scenario. As a general rule, I will also record dry signals for the same reason Bit mentioned.




see i was told at the store that you always want a pre-amp because it sounds better than the preamps in the interface.   

Are you recommending plugging the mic right into the audio interface?
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/14 01:29:19 (permalink)
Ultimately this is up to you and what you prefer. As long as a signal is clean, you can do just about anything you want with it "in the box." Definitely try the interface on its own.

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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/14 13:11:02 (permalink)
Better preamps can be better, and although I've never used the presonus,  most of the better preamps cost a lot of more money than either unit you are using (could good tube hardware costs even more).  A mid-priced tube or built-in transformer can cost more than an entire entry-level interface.  I'm sure your salesperson would love for you to buy a Warm or Neve, which would give you a better preamp and more commission for them.
 
However, the enhancement of a really nice preamp is a subtle thing which takes a certain monitoring quality to hear and some experience too.  More expensive designs and high-quality (cost) components don't just jump out at a person.  What isn't so subtle is the higher output so you can use a mic farther away from the subject which can even out the sound, like a compressor, as well as find a better spot as far as room and tone is concerned.  Another thing is they are less easily overdriven - instead of immediate distortion you get a thickening saturation that adds little hairs like cilia to your recorded sound and opens up other techniques.  It is not so much a problem solver as a better problem solver.
 
So for most of us a good transformerless preamp design (the kind found in most interfaces and many mixers) works most of the time with most sounds and usually the cost starts at several hundred dollars to get a better pre.  The presonus most likely has pretty much the same preamp (with a starved-plate tube-effect tied in) as your interface.  No need for it, unless you like the tube effect, which you don't on your voice.  Don't use the extra preamp.  A preamp simply steps up a mic-level signal to line level.  Plugging a pre into a pre isn't necessary.  If you can't find anything you like the tube effect on, take the item back.

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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/14 16:28:22 (permalink)
thanks for the information.  Someone on gearslutz replied with:
 
"you're not plugging the pre amp into the interface with a mic cable by any chance are you?

Line level input should be a TRS cable. If using an xlr cable you are pre amping the signal twice and could be adding some distortion especially on the plosive parts"
 
 
so thats why i thought that.  thanks for clearing that up.
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/15 14:11:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2016/01/15 16:10:41
Hi Silver,
 
I'll give you my opinion for what it's worth....
 
I'm not a great engineer or anything, but I have had really good "better than average" recordings for most of my recording days. In most of them, I found I got the same results with a pre and without one. For example, I (thankfully) have had a good business going for numerous years and have been financially "safe" with buying gear. I've had so many mic pre's and outboard gear...it was crazy. One day I started getting rid of it because I found other methods that to me, gave me the same results.
 
Now, though this is going to sound stupid....it's really the truth. I've gotten a lot of compliments over the years on stuff that I've done. Rarely have I been asked to speak about my signal chain. One day I made a friend in someone that has about 90 million sales as a producer/engineer. He asked me what I used to get some of the sounds I was getting and he was blown away that I didn't use a dedicated mic pre.
 
I have for years, used a Mackie 32-8 console. I've either recorded direct or mic'd things up. Now granted, there is a mic pre on each channel on that board, but I used so little of it to get between -6 and -10 dB, to me a mic pre was barely used. Other times during my direct recordings, I never touched them ic pre trim knob because the ouput on the device was just loud enough and gave me the signal I needed. So yes, I sort of used a pre but not the way most people use pre's for coloration and all that other garbage. I found that unless I needed a specific color from a pre that absolutely had to be captured, there was really no reason for one.
 
Speaking of my friend with the 90 million sales....I happened to interview him one day just because I wanted to. One of the questions I asked him was "do you really need to use mic pre's?" His answer was No, you absolutely do not!" That engineer/producer is Beau Hill...who was quite famous in the 80's. I need to post the interview up here one of these days. :)
 
In this field, a lot of the sounds and situations you find yourself in will be subjective. Other things will only matter to you or a small amount of people. At the end of the day, you have to use what works for you. I have found that the more people I listen to, the more I go astray and lose my way. Of course there are things I have learned from others that have helped me....but other times, I've been taken on a wild goose chase that has sent me reading for nothing. You have to learn when to stop and read to where you can apply what you learned, and when to move on because something is a big bunch of hype. I've always felt that mic pre's are just that. A big bunch of hype where people feel the need to justify and brag about a pricey piece of gear that may make a 2% difference....and the key word there "difference" meaning *different* not necessarily "better".
 
So though a pre can and will make a difference, the big deciding factor for me has been "what am I going for and how do I need to get there?" In some instances, a dedicated, colorful pre is the answer. Even a tube pre. Other times, the pre in my new Midas M-32 console works perfectly and gets me to -6 dB the way I want....which is all I need.
 
See, I'm all for processing non-destructively. I am in the camp that feels we can process enough with plugins to come close enough to what hardware can give us. Not exact, as there are things that plugs and sims can't do.....but they can get so close, the only one that will notice is you when you solo something up....or some gear snob engineer that doesn't understand that the buying public listens to his $100,000000 recording as an mp3 through $3 earbuds. ;) Don't buy into the hype unless it is completely justified.
 
-Danny
post edited by Danny Danzi - 2016/01/15 14:26:49

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tlw
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Re: PreAmp For Mic Input - Is It Necessary? 2016/01/15 16:08:17 (permalink)
SilverBlueMedallion
 
see i was told at the store that you always want a pre-amp because it sounds better than the preamps in the interface.   

Are you recommending plugging the mic right into the audio interface?



Let's put it this way. I'd rate the four mic pres in my RME UFX as likely to be better than any cheap pre-amp, and most middle-range ones. They're quiet and uncoloured which gives a good platform to build on.
 
An entry-level interface's pres might well be worse than inexpensive stand-alone pres, or not - only your ears can judge that. But entry-level interfaces can also be very good nowadays, once you're out of the rock-bottom level ones, as they go up in price you pay more and more for smaller and smaller improvements. Which is true of pretty much all audio gear.
 
And a better, or just different, mic might make far more difference than adding in a pre-amp... As might de-essing the offending tracks or careful eq. Or backing off from the mic, using a better windshield or a combination of all of that. If the mic or how you're using it is producing the plosives and sibilance all a different pre-amp will do is make them sound slightly different, it won't remove them.

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