Presonus 1818VSL with a Surface

I need to record a vocal quartet and currently I have an audio interface for 2 channels (Audiobox USB).  (The workstation is a big Studiocat PC.)  So I have been looking at upgrade options.  I have mostly settled on the Presonus 1818VSL unless somebody has some good reasons not to use this box.  I would welcome that input, but that isn't the main reason for my post.
 
I recently purchased a Microsoft Surface 3.  Before buying that machine I watched a video where the reviewer has use the Surface 3 and the Surface 3 Pro in a variety of DAW environments and they both worked surprisingly well.  So it occurs to me that the Surface 3 plus the Audiobox1818VSL might actually be a pretty nice and extremely portable solution for recording 8 live tracks.  Unlike the iPad and the earlier Surface generations, the Surface 3 and 3 Pro can run basically all regular Windows apps, not just the stripped down "pad apps".  I expect I could run Sonar on the Surface, but I probably would run the mini version of StudioOne that comes with the Audiobox because I would only be tracking.  I would plan to take those WAV files into Sonar at home to do the heavier stuff.
 
That brings up 2 questions:
 
1) Has anybody done anything similar?  Does it seem like this will be viable, no dropouts, etc?
 
2) What are the chances that I could use TWO of the 1010VSL units, attached to the Surface with a USB hub to track up to 16 channels live?
 
On that second point, I'm worried about pushing USB too far.  The Surface and the 1818VSL are both USB2, not USB3.  The theoretical bitrate of USB 2 is 480 Mbit/sec.  If I recorded 16 channels at 41.1 and 24 bits, this adds up to about 17 Mbit/sec, so it might work.  I am concerned that a USB hub might delay things enough to cause problems.  I could drop to 16 bit recording, considering these would be live shows and medium-quality microphones.
 
Any experiences or educated guesses about this?
 

I use an 1818vsl with an additional 8 I/o via ADAT... It works great...

Between its iPad app which controls almost all of it and neyrink to put sonar on my iPad, I have very comfortable wireless control...

I don't know the surface devices you mention so I can't help there...

As I've run two different Studiolive boards to very old hulk machines and recording the audio to external USB 2 drives... Streaming 16-24 tracks for 8 hours... Yes, they are FireWire, but 16 on my usb2 1818 does the same. I would guess that two 1818's would work fine... Just be careful as they can be finicky such as not working with USB 3...

Keni
Yes, they are FireWire, but 16 on my usb2 1818 does the same. I would guess that two 1818's would work fine...

Thanks.  I was planning to buy the 1818VSL anyway to use with the home studio.  Connecting it (or 2 of them) to the Surface was an afterthought. 
 
We really have an embarrassment of riches when it comes to field recording.  I have avoided field recording to a DAW because of dropout issues, but this might be a simple enough solution to work reliably.
 
For field recordings, I do most of them with a Zoom H6.  This will do an in-board stereo pair, plus 4 outboard mics.  I could buy an adapter that would do 6 outboard mics, but haven't done that.  This is quick, easy, compact, high quality, reliable and can do most shows running on batteries.
 
I also have a Zoom R24 that can do 8 external mics simultaneously.  And that is also very compact and reliable.
 
For more tracks, I have a Presonus StudioLive mixer and I can connect an Allen/Heath ICE16 recorder by plugging two db25 connectors into the mixer.  That will record 16 channels at 44.1 x 24bit.  Again, 100% reliable.  But this is a lot more bulk.  It is perfect if I am already running house sound through that mixer.  But if I can track directly to a DAW reliably with two of these 1818VSL units. that is a lot more flexible and compact.  And I think it is the same preamps that are in the big mixer anyway.   None of these options were available 5 years ago.
 
 

You cannot hook up 2 1818VSL interfaces, or 2 of any other audio interfaces, to the same PC. You would need to add additional i/o via Keni's method.
 
I would purchase the 1818VSL from a vendor that will let you return it if it doesn't work in your system. Keni looks like he's still running Win7. The Surface 3 will come with Win10. I have a 44VSL that I now use as a class-compliant interface to an Android tablet running the Audio Evolution Mobile DAW. Works great.
 
Even through PreSonus claim Win10 compatibility for their VSL drivers, it crashes the SONAR audio engine, yet fails to show up as an ASIO device. Uninstalled. The 1818VSL, in particular, has been troublesome for many users. Hang out on the PreSonus user forum for a bit, search on the 1818VSL. Lots of peeps love it. Lots of other peeps want their money back. Great hardware. Tone-deaf developers w.r.t. responding to DOCUMENTED bugs. They just ignore them. I feel sorry sometimes for the mods on their user forum. They get hung out to dry.
 
I love the fact that Mr. Anderton and the Bakers make MEANINGFUL appearances here. Props!

Keni
Since the OP already has a Studiolive, I wonder why not simply run this? Transportation issues?

Yes.  Plus I already have a solution that works extremely well for the StudioLive.  It is the ICE16.  I plug in 2 DB25 connectors and I am ready to start recording.  Literally takes under a minute and has no risk of complications.  I know whatever comes in over the preamp trim will end up on the ICE16.  It is limited to 44.1 recording if you want to record 16 tracks though.
 
Scook, thanks for the caution about the ASIO limitations.  So I will probably limit my ambition to the Surface plus one 1818VSL for now and hope that Presonus either improves the driver or comes out with a 16-channel interface in a single device.  That may be wishful thinking on my part, but I have seen cases where people are using the 1818VSL as a conventional mixer.  It does most of what a StudioLive can do at less than half the cost, assuming you have a computer available to handle the UI.  A 16-channel product might make sense, but it would cut unto the full mixing board sales a little

Keni
If any of your other converters offer ADAT you can run it via the 1818 to get 16 tracks... That's what I'm doing here right now...

Very interesting.  I have never used ADAT.  But I see that the 1818VSL supports ADAT in and out.  So does that mean if I had two 1818VSL units, I could patch the ADAT out from the secondary one into the ADAT in of the primary one, and then 16 channels would come across the USB interface from the primary 1818VSL?  And the DAW would see 16 independent tracks on the ASIO driver?

Keni
If you want a Presonus rack mount interface larger than the 1818 you might look at the Studiolive RM which comes in two sizes... 32 being the larger. I don't recall if the smaller is 16 or 24..,

Thanks for that reference.  I wasn't aware of the RM series.  For anyone who is interested:
http://www.presonus.com/products/StudioLive-RM-Series/media
 
So that tells me 8 channels is probably as far as they will go with the "audio interface" product line now, as the RM series takes over at 16 and 32 channels.
 
I know this is the direction of the future, but I have a huge fear of things going wrong on a live show.  So I will probably stick with my full SytudioLive console for now and get more experience on the 1818VSL connected to my Surface.
 
In a couple of years, maybe I will have the courage to sell the StudioLive board and ICE16 recorder and run completely from something like the RM32IA. 

Historically Presonus has been very Apple-oriented and had only minimal support for Windows or Android products.  It appears they are starting to take a broader view now (or have more resources now to cover broader platforms.
 
I think the Mackie product you refer to is the DR32R
http://dl32r.mackie.com/
That is iPad only at this stage.  Personally I have had a lot of problems with Mackie products over the years.  I know many people who have been happy with them, but I have had several mixer hardware failures.  For awhile I had a Mackie Onyx 12-channel mixer that I tried to get working with Sonar 7 over Firewire.  I had nothing but problems with that.  I could never get a reliable setup.  It was maddening.  If you didn't plug everything in in exactly the right sequence and say an incantation to the recording gods, it would be all messed up and even when it worked, dropouts were the rule rather than the exception.  I an not saying it was the fault of the Mackie products necessarily.  The Firewire hardware and drivers could have been a factor too.
 
But since everything supports USB pretty well, I think that will be a more reliable way to go.
 
I won't miss running snakes after I do make this move.

Keni
Other than the preamp gain and headphone/main outs, so is the 1818... So you do need an iPad as well as wifi connectivity...

Looks like there is a Windows version of Virtual StudioLive for the 1818VSL:
http://www.presonus.com/support/downloads/AudioBox-1818VSL
 
And I think they supply a Windows version of the starter StudioOne product in the 1818VSL package.
 
It is a good question about WiFi versus USB.  I was assuming that the 1818VSL could plus into the Surface USB port and appear as a set of ASIO devices in the DAW.  ANd I also assumed that I could run the Virtual StudioLive software on the Surface also controlling the 1818VSL via that same USB link.

The driver for the 1818 works fine here with no glitches... The Virtual Studiolive software which is part of the driver is elegant, efficient and well thought out...

I don't know what the surface is... I'm guessing it is a Microsoft tablet? If you can run Sonar on it, the VSL console will give you full control of the 1818... It's almost the same as the Studiolive software....

Yes, they also include Capture and StudioOne Artist... A good entry level version. It works well and has many good ideas, but I prefer Sonar by far (version2version comparison)...

Capture is another story... Just for recording, not editing... Turn it on and all inputs of the available device are mapped 1-1... Click arm and press record and your multitracking... Afterwards simply insert start and end markers for each song and use their command to chop all tracks and export the separated songs for import to your DAW of choice... This is great for live gigs so you can press record for each set and capture as many sets/bands as you need very easily...

The wifi stuff is easy if you have a router... Then you have walk around control via iPad...

USB does just fine for the interface. I have not tried using theme USB line for external drive recording though. I did that while FireWire connected the Studiolive... You might want to use a separate USB line... Most pc's have a number of connectors sharing two actual ports... I don't know how you deal with drives/storage on the Surface...

The Focusrite are fine and I've installed a few of them too... I didn't like their console view as much and all but one are FireWire...

I find the Presonus more of a transparent preamp and the Focusrite a bit colored...nicely colored though much like their analog gear of old. The Presonus FatChannel is excellent though the 1818 compressor doesn't do soft knee...

I forgot to mention... Be certain you have USB 2 for the 1818. It does not do USB3 at all... And I did gave one machine that had a lot of trouble with the 1818 and sounds like what P-Theory mentions... But that was only one of the 5 machines I installed it on... The Studiolive worked well on every machine as long as the FireWire chipset was right...

Keni
Yes, they also include Capture and StudioOne Artist...
Capture is another story... Just for recording, not editing... Turn it on and all inputs of the available device are mapped 1-1... Click arm and press record and your multitracking... Afterwards simply insert start and end markers for each song and use their command to chop all tracks and export the separated songs for import to your DAW of choice... This is great for live gigs so you can press record for each set and capture as many sets/bands as you need very easily...

That's all I would want to do in the field, so it looks like I wouldn't need to install StudioOne at all.  I assume Capture is a lot smaller.  There is no hard drive on the Surface, so you have to be careful about how many apps you install.  You can buy it with different sized internal SSDs as the C drive.  Mine is 128 GB.  There is a Pro model that has 256 GB.

cparmerlee

Keni
USB does just fine for the interface. I have not tried using theme USB line for external drive recording though. I did that while FireWire connected the Studiolive... You might want to use a separate USB line... Most pc's have a number of connectors sharing two actual ports... I don't know how you deal with drives/storage on the Surface...

The documentation for Capture talks only about FireWire.  Ans the release notes list the supported products, which does not include the VSL boxes:
http://www.presonus.com/downloads/products/release_notes/Capture2.1.1ReleaseNotes.pdf
 
The product page for the 1818VSL refers only to StudioOne Artist, and does not mention Capture
http://www.presonus.com/products/AudioBox-1818VSL
 
Capture would be perfect, but it is looking like I would have to use StudioOne Artist.   That may be too big for the Surface, as it comes with a bunch of regular DAW stuff.
 

That's too bad... I haven't done any live gigs with the 1818. I guess I just wanted to believe I could use capture with it...

Why not install a stripped down version of Sonar? Do a manual install and don't include synths, extra plugins (PC should be plenty for quick mixes) or Melodyne... You should have plenty of room for that with 256GB...

The software shouldn't care if you're using FireWire or USB so it must have been referencing the hardware... I'm gonna snoop around a bit and make sure... I would think that once the inputs are reported to windows, any app should be able to see it...

I just thought.... I still have capture on my DAW which is now running the 1818. I'll be powering up in an hour or two and I will try it... Maybe they just don't bundle it for free with it? I seem to remember it being free to begin with thought they now offer both a free and paid version of Capture for iOS...

I'll post later after I've tried...

Good plan!

Keep us abreast of your progress... I'll bet this could become very popular! ;-)