Helpful ReplyPresonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly?

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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 20:14:12 (permalink)
Midiboy
I don't use the Pan Knob.  Even though technically, it does Zero out, it just doesn't display it in the scribble properly...

I hit the Pan button and use the sliders instead. 




Does your Pan button collapse? Meaning does it depress when your press it? Mine does not.

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 20:40:44 (permalink)
Audioicon
 

If one have to read a manual to operate the FaderPort, then either you are a total MIDI novice or the FaderPort is extremely complex. I have to say that I have the Yamaha Montage and Korg Kronos and have not read the manual.

The FaderPort did not come with a manual, I think there is a reason, however there is a manual on Presonus website.




Not reading the manual is not something to be proud of.  In fact it is a bit dumb.  Faderport 8/16 are complex devices and unless you read the manual you will never get to know what they can fully do.  Same with Montage.  Without the manual you will be extracting about 10% of its power.  The rest you will never know about.  It is way complex.  (Read the SOS review, it sounds incredibly complex)  If you only want to use a fraction of its ability then that is fine then.  
 
I have a Kurzweil PC3K and the manual is over an inch thick! I think I know it until I open up that book.  It never ceases to blow me away.
 
They say this is the age of the manual! Even when I read the Waves plug-in manuals fully I pickup about half a dozen things I never know they could do.  There are little hidden things here and there.  Click on that tiny little symbol down in the corner and boom, a whole new page opens up with a raft of settings.  You would simply never find it without the manual. 
 
Why are people reluctant? 

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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 21:14:16 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
Audioicon
 

If one have to read a manual to operate the FaderPort, then either you are a total MIDI novice or the FaderPort is extremely complex. I have to say that I have the Yamaha Montage and Korg Kronos and have not read the manual.

The FaderPort did not come with a manual, I think there is a reason, however there is a manual on Presonus website.




Not reading the manual is not something to be proud of.  In fact it is a bit dumb.  Faderport 8/16 are complex devices and unless you read the manual you will never get to know what they can fully do.  Same with Montage.  Without the manual you will be extracting about 10% of its power.  The rest you will never know about.  It is way complex.  (Read the SOS review, it sounds incredibly complex)  If you only want to use a fraction of its ability then that is fine then.  
 
I have a Kurzweil PC3K and the manual is over an inch thick! I think I know it until I open up that book.  It never ceases to blow me away.
 
They say this is the age of the manual! Even when I read the Waves plug-in manuals fully I pickup about half a dozen things I never know they could do.  There are little hidden things here and there.  Click on that tiny little symbol down in the corner and boom, a whole new page opens up with a raft of settings.  You would simply never find it without the manual. 
 
Why are people reluctant? 




I have the FaderPort, not the 8 or the 16 and I already use the Mackie MCU. Regardless, both of these devices barely have manuals.

Maybe I stated this wrong, a great device does not require complex manuals.
Audio devices/MIDI all have straight forward specification and because of these specifications, I do not think manuals are necessary read but mostly optional.

In my opinion it's like driving a car, if I go out and buy a new car, regardless of the brand, I should be able to perform all of it's standard function without reading a manual.

If I have to read the manual of my car to know how to center the car on the road, then I am in serious trouble.
Same for MIDI devices, yes some feature are not apparent but in my opinion that's bad design because I want to be creativity, not spend my time in Manuals.

Manuals for me are not perquisites but rather reference to something I may need to do that is not ordinary but I have never had to read manuals to operate any musical equipment, at least not initially.






Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 21:31:21 (permalink)
Audioicon
In my opinion it's like driving a car, if I go out and buy a new car, regardless of the brand, I should be able to perform all of it's standard function without reading a manual.

If I have to read the manual of my car to know how to center the car on the road, then I am in serious trouble.
Same for MIDI devices, yes some feature are not apparent but in my opinion that's bad design because I want to be creativity, not spend my time in Manuals.

If your new vehicle is of the same type as previous, that statement if valid.
But if you had a bike and you have replaced it with a helicopter, that is different.
 
Each Control Surface producer program different functionality and operations for each device. Physical controls, unlike with cars, have NO fixed meaning for the DAW. When the "steering wheel" can start to control something else after software update, it is better to check the manual before pressing the gas pedal

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#34
Jeff Evans
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 21:36:30 (permalink)
I thought you had Faderport 8/16.  Faderport 1 is much easier I agree.  By the way you can centre it in fact, all you have to do is just turn it and slow down when close to the centre.  The movement is still indented and there is a spot where the 'C' will show up.  In Studio One you can also just Ctrl click on the pan pot in the mixer and it also instantly goes to centre.
 
I know what you are getting at re manuals too.  Yes many things can be used and operated without them of course but on the other side of the coin there is often a ton of stuff you just can't stumble onto or happen to find.  You have to read about it and learn about it first.  (I could not find the second fusebox in my Toyota Corolla until I read the manual. There are two. One is in the engine bay but the other is in a very secret place!!!)
 
I mean with something like a seriously complex synth such as the Kurzweil or Montage you will never what it can do until you look into it a bit deeper.  I mean there are even dual button pushes in my case that access features. You will never find that unless you consult the manual
 
And then there is the situation where the manual is not very good either.  Such as in Studio One.  It is way behind in documentation of all the new features and you have to watch the video tutorials etc in order to learn everything. 
 
 

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#35
Audioicon
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 22:07:22 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
I thought you had Faderport 8/16.  Faderport 1 is much easier I agree.  By the way you can centre it in fact, all you have to do is just turn it and slow down when close to the centre.  The movement is still indented and there is a spot where the 'C' will show up.  In Studio One you can also just Ctrl click on the pan pot in the mixer and it also instantly goes to centre.
 
I know what you are getting at re manuals too.  Yes many things can be used and operated without them of course but on the other side of the coin there is often a ton of stuff you just can't stumble onto or happen to find.  You have to read about it and learn about it first.  (I could not find the second fusebox in my Toyota Corolla until I read the manual. There are two. One is in the engine bay but the other is in a very secret place!!!)
 
I mean with something like a seriously complex synth such as the Kurzweil or Montage you will never what it can do until you look into it a bit deeper.  I mean there are even dual button pushes in my case that access features. You will never find that unless you consult the manual
 
And then there is the situation where the manual is not very good either.  Such as in Studio One.  It is way behind in documentation of all the new features and you have to watch the video tutorials etc in order to learn everything. 
 


I am using Sonar so I will try to mess around with the Pan again but there is no center. It misses it by 1 and I also noticed the the increment and decrements is not +- 1 per indentation as you turn but sometimes 2. I turn the knob very slowly and when it gets to 99 then it jumps to 1. It's off by 1.

Regarding manuals, I do not think we have a disagreement, I have been a MIDI engineer for over 20 years. And I always say, if you have to read a manual to perform basic operation of a device then either the device is too complex or you are a novice to the core concept.

I think for musical equipment, there is a fine line between allowing and inspiring creativity to just standing in the way with overly complex features.

When I got the Roland Integra 7, I just plugged it in and put the manual in storage with the box. I was able to do everything I need right up front. I am sure I will refer back for other super advanced or proprietary feature but for the standard and everyday operation it was extremely simple.



Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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Midiboy
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 22:17:36 (permalink)
Audioicon
Midiboy
Jeff, nice!  I should read the manual!  lol.  What I like about it, I didn't need to get it up and running.  It was pretty self explanatory to me.  That's a good tip though. 



If one have to read a manual to operate the FaderPort, then either you are a total MIDI novice or the FaderPort is extremely complex. I have to say that I have the Yamaha Montage and Korg Kronos and have not read the manual.

The FaderPort did not come with a manual, I think there is a reason, however there is a manual on Presonus website.




I never read any manual, honestly.  Except if I have to put together some stupid press board furniture...then I read the manual, getting angrier and angrier at the blokes that wrote it. 

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 22:19:01 (permalink)
Yes there may be something going on with the way the pan pot works with Sonar for sure.  With Studio One anyway I can always get in the centre.  It is always incrementing by '1' (when turning slowly) and therefore the 'C' is just one of the positions that shows up.
 
There are a couple of fancy features it also does in Studio One.  Its not until you read the manual though you find them out. 
 
I think Faderport 8/16 has some very cool features with Studio One only.  I know Faderport 1 was intended for more than one DAW but it does work rather well in Studio One though.  Funnily enough I use it so well I am not hankering for the FP8/16.
 
What is very cool though is the way the new Presonus Series III studio/live mixing desks work with Studio One. They are like a FP 8/16 on steroids! They switch between normal mixer mode and DAW mode.  Also the CS18Ai is a pretty cool Studio One controller as well.  More expensive options of course.  But they perform a raft of other functions as well. 

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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 22:20:40 (permalink)
And before Mr. Manual rebukes me for not reading the manual, I pretty much have the FaderPort figured out on my own.  Everything is labeled nice, and if there is a question, YouTube has the answer.
 
I never read the manual on my Komplete, my Komplete Kontrol keyboards, (I have 2), Sonar, Studio One, my Korg Karma, Roland Juno G, and I make do pretty well.  Just sayin'.
 
:)

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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/09 23:39:05 (permalink)
Midiboy
Mr. Manual.


Now that's original!

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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 01:00:15 (permalink)
Audioicon
Midiboy
Mr. Manual.


Now that's original!



And a bit juvenile.  It's silly to me that anyone is actually dismissing or ridiculing the value of reading a manual. 
 
Jeff said it well enough:  For many modern devices there are hidden functions that you simply will not know unless you read the manual or spend days going through each controller, trial and error, until you figure out what exactly it does (and even then you likely will not figure it out).
 
Bottom line, we get that there are users who don't like to read the manual.  But let's not pretend that this should be the default position for anyone who wants to make the most of their time/device.  There's a reason that "RTFM" is an acronym we all know....

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#41
Audioicon
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 02:28:14 (permalink)

And a bit juvenile.  It's silly to me that anyone is actually dismissing or ridiculing the value of reading a manual.


And a bit strange that you have no sense of humor. Come on, this is not matters of National Security.

Cheer up.

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JonD
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 03:42:39 (permalink)
Audioicon

And a bit juvenile.  It's silly to me that anyone is actually dismissing or ridiculing the value of reading a manual.


And a bit strange that you have no sense of humor. Come on, this is not matters of National Security.

Cheer up.



What's strange about it?   I didn't find it funny.  Jeff made a very valid point (as he usually does) and it's fine if you disagree with him, but mocking him with a name is, again, just juvenile.
 
Read the manual, don't read the manual, I don't care.  But it's not "strange" that I don't join in mocking a fellow forum member, especially when he's actually trying to help you (Whether you see it or not).

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#43
Jeff Evans
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 04:04:22 (permalink)
People do learn in three primary ways. The visual and manuals are good for these. The auditory, good for listening and the physical experience.  Actually doing the stuff and having someone sitting next to them being shown and then they do it etc.. I have had a few private students that preferred the visual.  Although they had access to all the manuals, they needed to be shown etc.. So I guess the manual readers are only going to fall into one third of everyone which is understandable.  Some can learn with more than one approach as well.
 
I had to do an Avid training course once and that was a physical experience.  We all sat in front of a Pro Tools session and the instructor showed us how to do stuff. Then we had to do it etc... It was good but it was also backed up with written material.  If there ever was something that really uses the manual it is Pro Tools. The manual is huge.
 
But yes, a manual can unlock something indeed. Watching a video though is more a visual as well.  It's good to run a visual, say a video on one machine (laptop or iPad) while using your main machine next to the visual teaching machine e.g. combine visual with physical. You get a double pronged approach.
 
There is so much to learn now.  I could spend a year learning about Yamaha Montage for example or my Kurzweil workstation. 
 
I don't think you can fumble around so much these days though and discover things. In the old days there was much less to discover. Now the amount of stuff something can do is almost limitless.  I don't mind Mr Manual. It's late night reading for me.

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Midiboy
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 04:12:10 (permalink)
Jeff Evans
 
There are a couple of fancy features it also does in Studio One.  Its not until you read the manual though you find them out. 

 
And I still haven't read it, and I use those fancy features in SO3.  It's why I bought the FaderPort.
 
 

And a bit juvenile.  It's silly to me that anyone is actually dismissing or ridiculing the value of reading a manual.

 
Not dismissing or ridiculing.  I just personally don't typically read a manual.  I can usually figure the stuff our on my own.  If someone needs to read one, no problem.  

It may seem juvenile to you, and I'm sorry if you feel that way, but nobody said anything about him saying the following:
 

Not reading the manual is not something to be proud of.  In fact it is a bit dumb.  Faderport 8/16 are complex devices and unless you read the manual you will never get to know what they can fully do.

 
It's not "dumb" and I'm sorry, I feel it is something to be proud of if you can figure a device out withOUT reading a manual.  The 2nd part of the statement is simply not true.  I learned most of what I needed to know about it before I even bought it by watching YouTube videos, which in my opinion, are WAY better than reading a manual.  

I guess that makes me a bit dumb.
 

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Jeff Evans
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 04:44:59 (permalink)
Well watching videos is a visual and audio experience at the same time so its powerful.  I was referring more to those who only work their way around working things out as they go and don't actually take in any other information from any other source and there are those types as well.  You are not dumb, but smart in that it is great you have figured out mostly what it does.  I bet though if I read the manual I could find something you did not know.    And you will find those little things out in time too.  Mainly when you find you need to do something.  Then you might not get the answers in any video, but the answer may be in the manual.  That situation crops up too, so don't write the manual off either.  And as I said this applies to very well written manuals and they are not always as we know.
 
For example I have got a Boss ME 25 effects guitar processor and it is way powerful and all they have supplied is one of those horrible single page cards!  So they have gone from the inch thick Kurzweil manual to the other extreme which is nothing!  It is not all covered on that card I am sure of it!  They are getting a bit sparse these days and it is becoming more common.  A lot of Roland synths are doing it now too.  I know I am going to have to hunt more info on it for sure.  Playing around with it will get mostly there I know, but at some point I will have to find out more. 
 
Learning is pretty exciting and very good for our brains too.  There is almost too much to keep up with.  I  have invested in something like 23 Waves plug-ins for example and some of the manuals are over 100 pages.  

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#46
Audioicon
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 07:40:51 (permalink)
JonD
What's strange about it?   I didn't find it funny.  Jeff made a very valid point (as he usually does) and it's fine if you disagree with him, but mocking him with a name is, again, just juvenile.
 
Read the manual, don't read the manual, I don't care.  But it's not "strange" that I don't join in mocking a fellow forum member, especially when he's actually trying to help you (Whether you see it or not).


Well, maybe I watch too much Family Guy.
I don't take anything too seriously.

Thanks for the contribution.

Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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Midiboy
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 11:09:15 (permalink)

Learning is pretty exciting and very good for our brains too.  There is almost too much to keep up with.  I  have invested in something like 23 Waves plug-ins for example and some of the manuals are over 100 pages.  

 
I have Waves Mercury, so, that includes pretty much all Waves Plugins.  Who has time to read 1000's of pages of manuals.  lol.
 
Learning is good, I agree.  Just be careful you don't insult people that would rather spend time "hands on" or looking online for tips when needed.  

Besides, this whole discussion is rather silly, don't you think?  
 
WHO CARES if people read the manual or not.  IF you need to, by all means, do so.  

I don't need to, and I make my way  just fine. :)

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azslow3
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 11:33:10 (permalink)
Audioicon
Regarding manuals, I do not think we have a disagreement, I have been a MIDI engineer for over 20 years. And I always say, if you have to read a manual to perform basic operation of a device then either the device is too complex or you are a novice to the core concept.

Was you developing MIDI devices or using them?
I mean without (my own) manual, I will never remember what I have implemented in my own preset for FaderPort
BTW if you do not like original plug-in or want to be "an engineer" for it, you can give my preset a try.
NOTE. I have never seen the device other then on pictures...

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#49
Audioicon
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 17:33:08 (permalink)
azslow3

Was you developing MIDI devices or using them?
I mean without (my own) manual, I will never remember what I have implemented in my own preset for FaderPort
BTW if you do not like original plug-in or want to be "an engineer" for it, you can give my preset a try.
NOTE. I have never seen the device other then on pictures...


I am afraid I am not following what you are saying.

Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
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Midiboy
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 20:21:07 (permalink)
Well, to answer the question on the Pan Knob, yes.  It pushes in.  Yes, it centers it.  Just did it.  So yes, I didn't see that on any videos online.  I probably wouldn't have known this had Jeff not mentioned it...since you know...I didn't read the manual.  lol.
 
Thanks for the tip, Jeff.  Great feature. 

----
Gregg
Midiboy Music
www.facebook.com/midiboygregg
 
Win10x64 (Eng), Sonar Platinum x64 (Eng w/ lifetime updates), 32GB DDR4 RAM, Intel i7 5820, nVidia 960, Alesis MultiMix 8 USB2 w/ Alesis MultiMix driver. Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88, Korg NanoControl.
#51
Audioicon
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/10 20:40:24 (permalink)
Midiboy
Well, to answer the question on the Pan Knob, yes.  It pushes in.  Yes, it centers it.  Just did it.  So yes, I didn't see that on any videos online.  I probably wouldn't have known this had Jeff not mentioned it...since you know...I didn't read the manual.  lol.
 
Thanks for the tip, Jeff.  Great feature. 


Just to be clear, are we talking about the same thing?

I am referring to the FaderPort, not the 8 or the 16.

When you push the Pan knob does it have a click feel when it depresses?

Thanks

Checkout my new song: Playing on YouTube: EUPHORIA.
#52
Midiboy
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/03/11 00:36:06 (permalink)
Oh ok.  I have the Faderport 8.  THAT does have the Pan knob as a button.  I don't know about the regular. 

----
Gregg
Midiboy Music
www.facebook.com/midiboygregg
 
Win10x64 (Eng), Sonar Platinum x64 (Eng w/ lifetime updates), 32GB DDR4 RAM, Intel i7 5820, nVidia 960, Alesis MultiMix 8 USB2 w/ Alesis MultiMix driver. Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88, Korg NanoControl.
#53
texasaurus rex
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/04/22 09:26:21 (permalink)
Calling someone dumb for not reading the manual of the FaderPort is DUMB..as in DUMBA$$.  Weak, one step away from trolling, my opinion. 
Regarding using my FaderPort in Cakewalk, the MIDI/Controller settings never stay set.  I just spent enough time being frustrated this time that I lost all that happy vibe of starting a song. Destroying my mood, the original idea for my song ,and workflow...is there a plus in that?  It  doesn't seem smart to use a DAW that keeps "forgetting" settings. It works in Studio One 3.5 and also Samplitude Pro X3 and Reaper. I was planning on going full tilt with Cakewalk by BandLab but the constant war with the controller/midi settings is... DUMB. See, that's where it is appropriate to use that word, not towards people asking for a bit of help from forum community. The analogy of driving a car is a great one, hat's off on that. 
So, if I don't want to continue being DUMB myself, the question is why am I going to continue using Cakewalk by SoundLab if it doesn't even let me use a simple FaderPort, considering the other DAW's I use do? There are MANY things that totally rock with SONAR, er...Cakewalk, but fighting with my controller, resetting MIDI ports and specifying this and that is not one of them!
I am no hardcore ex-Sonar user; I started with a VS-20 and Guitar Tracks 4, have worked my way up with upgrades in SONAR until the Gibson fiasco. I was genuinely excited and hopeful all would be good and I could make it my main DAW. 
Anyone that knows a permanent solution within Cakewalk By BandLab to set up FaderPort, please PM me. I really don't want some beak calling me dumb for participating in this forum
#54
azslow3
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/04/22 19:54:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby iRelevant 2018/05/02 23:05:29
Sonar 2017.x+, so including CbB, has problems when MIDI configuration is changed. Only developers can fix it.
The situation is way better in case there is no "orphan" devices in the Windows Device Manager (there is an option to show them) and the entry for currently connected device is the "first" one for this device (not always the case after cleaning other instances, deleting the device and (auto)reinstalling helps). Such instances are created when another USB port is used for connection since Windows think that is a "new" device but there is no reason to remove "old" one.
 
Off-topic, but update about USB hubs: my 10m long hub does not have problems with USB2 interface (Phonic firefly 808), even when not powered separately (that was a requirement for stable VS-20 operations, since it is USB powered).

Sonar 8LE -> Platinum infinity, REAPER, Windows 10 pro
GA-EP35-DS3L, E7500, 4GB, GTX 1050 Ti, 2x500GB
RME Babyface Pro (M-Audio Audiophile Firewire/410, VS-20), Kawai CN43, TD-11, Roland A500S, Akai MPK Mini, Keystation Pro, etc.
www.azslow.com - Control Surface Integration Platform for SONAR
#55
iRelevant
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Re: Presonus FaderPort: Good, Bad Ugly? 2018/05/02 23:23:10 (permalink)
I've had a Faderport (single) for about 3-4 years now. I was not so happy about it in the beginning ... lot of mess with frequent Firmware updates ... and I found the Presonus web site a bit hard to navigate on the matter. After that I've been fairly happy with it. A bit cheep feel on the buttons, they are a bit hard to push ... and it looks like I have worn out the Stop button after years of use. Need to push it REAL hard for it to work. Faders is working smooth and nice still though. Also whole unit his with a metal front plate and fairly heavy ... sits steady on the desktop.
 
Recently took the time to configure it with use for Sonar and CbB, it was fairly easy with the help from all the good people in here. Before that I was using the VS-100 with Sonar, even-though I think it has nicer push buttons ... the VS-100 is a bit lumpy and take more desktop real estate (which is scares in my case).

OS:Win7x64 SP1 CPU:i5/8GB/SSD DAWs : CbB, FLS, SO2, (Reaper) etc. To much Gear, not enough wires. 
My Music : BandLab  https://www.bandlab.com/irelevant BandCamp : https://irelevant.bandcamp.com
#56
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