Helpful ReplyPreventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)?

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Tripecac
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2015/11/13 15:22:19 (permalink)

Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)?

Whenever I play back my songs on the home stereo, mp3 player, or car speakers, they sound very bass-heavy, with not much treble.  This is in contrast to when I am mixing them (on headphones), in which case the mix sounds more balanced.
 
So, apparently my mixing headphones are biased towards the high end (treble).
 
I'd therefore like find a way to compensate for this, by somehow making the headphones sound more bass-heavy (and less trebly) during mix, so that they more accurately represent what we'll be hearing on the home stereo, mp3 player, and car speakers.
 
Is there a way in Sonar (X3) to apply a bass-heavy EQ to the monitoring output (to the headphones) without interfering with the actual mix output?

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#1
stickman393
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/13 15:31:55 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jaxman12 2016/09/04 22:09:21
I put an EQ on my master bus, with a preset called "Room Tuning" (in your case it would be "headphone tuning" and I remember to turn it off before I bounce a final mix to WAV file.
 
 
post edited by stickman393 - 2015/11/13 15:42:54
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mesayre
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/13 15:34:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rspagnuolo 2016/09/05 14:36:52
I think what I'd do is put an EQ on an additional buss after the Master, and when you bounce the final mix out just do it from the first Master, which would cut out any FX after that point in the chain. Or just put it last on the master and bypass when you're done.
 
Really though, I think you're better off just compensating for it mentally. It'll take so much tweaking/checking to get your EQ settings to really match the system you're shooting for, that you might as well just learn the headphones inside and out. 
 
I hear you for sure. Always an issue for everyone, I think. I have started actually importing reference tracks into my sessions for easily A/B-ing while finalizing/mastering.

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#3
panup
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/13 15:58:57 (permalink)
How about purchasing bass heavy headphones? I think would be a good way to make you achieve more balanced mixes.
You could also put a low shelf eq to master bus during mixing and remove it just before exporting the final mix.
 
During mixing, listen reference songs and try to make your mix sound similar.
 
Mix by meters. Decide maximum allowed bass volume you may not exceed. Force yourself to value mid and high frequencies, too. :)
 
 
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/13 16:10:24 (permalink)
Go to sonarworks and pick up their headphone calibration system.  They have modeled a long list of headphones and their system works wonderfully on my KRK 8400's... you have many options, as you'll see once you arrive at their site.

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lawajava
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/13 21:19:24 (permalink)
Vastman
Go to sonarworks and pick up their headphone calibration system.  They have modeled a long list of headphones and their system works wonderfully on my KRK 8400's... you have many options, as you'll see once you arrive at their site.


I agree with all that. I also use those KRKs as well.

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Anderton
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/13 21:46:27 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby easyjoey 2015/11/20 11:21:34
Use Beats headphones. Then you'll wonder why your mixes have so much treble 

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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/13 22:12:29 (permalink)
My RME comes with a factory cheap headphones compensation EQ preset.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 00:14:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/11/15 06:25:30
I think you should find the flattest monitors you can to get a good mix. As good as headphones are they will give you a skewed  stereo image and can have frequency bumps or hollows that color the sound.  Good near monitors are the best way to approach mixing. 

Best
John
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 02:08:51 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rspagnuolo 2016/09/05 14:38:17
I keep meaning to pick up that Sonarworks system for my ATH-M50's. I couldn't do without ARC2 on my monitors so why am I denying myself the possibility of flat cans as well? It would also make my VRM box way more useful. 
 
ARC2 is like putting contact lenses on my monitors, the effect is incredible. I have all of my system audio wired through it via Virtual Audio Cable and Pedalboard2. Spotify goes through it, YouTube, Netflix, everything. I'd love to be able to slap Sonarworks on for my headphones as well. 

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dlesaux
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 06:12:41 (permalink)
Vastman
Go to sonarworks and pick up their headphone calibration system.  They have modeled a long list of headphones and their system works wonderfully on my KRK 8400's... you have many options, as you'll see once you arrive at their site.


I was one of the many pushing Sonarworks to include the KRK headphones. I exchanged many emails with them and they did indeed come through. Been using Sonarworks ever since.  My mixes translate much better now on different systems. I never realized how much high end those headphones added until Sonarworks. My mixes always sounded dull as a result.
 
Highly recommended!

Peace!
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 06:24:01 (permalink)
I don't use headphones for mixing/mastering.  I use studio monitors.  But, I was having problems with too much bass on my mixes with Samson Resolv 6.5a studio monitor speakers. I had to guess and remix and remix to get it right.   I bought new JBL LSR308's and no more "too much bass" in my mixes.  
 
I specifically bought the 8" LSR308's because of the bass problem.

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#12
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 06:26:50 (permalink)
Just from a practical point of view you probably need to Hpf everything except kick floor tom and bass and even those will probably stand some really low frequency filtering.
Then do the room or headphone eq trick

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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 06:41:43 (permalink)
I struggle with this too, and the ONLY way I've been able to get my mixes close to where they should be is to use a reference mix.  I mix in headphones primarily, because my studio is an untreated spare bedroom with all kinds of bass build-up and reflections, etc.
 
When I feel my mix is done, I export it as a wave file and import it into a new Sonar project along with the reference track.  (I have a song in the Songs Forum I completed last week using Zac Brown Band's "Toes" as a reference.)  I apply mastering fx and repeatedly compare my track to the reference, especially listening for the low end and that balance of instruments to vocals, etc.  Usually I find problems that I have to go back and fix in the mix.  I repeat the process until I feel good about my track.
 
After I export my master with the fx and maximizer/limiter applied, I listen to both the reference and my master on my iPhone and in the car with the best sound system.  I usually listen to a few other professional songs too, to compare volumes and overall sound.

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Tripecac
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 11:32:44 (permalink)
Thanks a bunch, guys!  It sounds like the best way to get good mixes is to mix on good speakers.  Like fireberd, I have some Samson Resolv 6.5a monitors, but they've been sitting in their box for about 5 years now, mostly because we've been renting houses with thin walls and no sense of privacy (having 2 small kids doesn't help since they'd bang on the door the instant they hear sound emerging from my office).  Perhaps when we get our own house, and the kids get older, I'll be able to break the dependency on headphones but until then I'm afraid I'm stuck.
 
The next best approach seems to be to mentally compensate, by using reference mixes, and trial-and-error.  This, of course, requires time, patience, and mental energy, and, well, did I mention the kids?  I'd prefer a solution which doesn't require conscious, deliberate compensation. 
 
I was hoping for some sort of plugin or bus setup which would let me adjust my monitor mix, without affecting the mixdown, and without my having to remember to turn off the monitor plugin/bus prior to mixdown.
 
Is there any way to route different audio to monitors than what would get mixed down?  Or is Sonar pretty much WYHIWYG (what you hear is what you get)?

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#15
Anderton
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 11:47:41 (permalink)
Tripecac
Is there any way to route different audio to monitors than what would get mixed down?  Or is Sonar pretty much WYHIWYG (what you hear is what you get)?



It depends on your interface. If you have multiple outputs, you can set up a separate headphone cue mix, as you would if for example the bass player wanted to hear more drums in the mix while overdubbing.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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Maarkr
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 11:57:54 (permalink)
i think most 'non-pro' mixer systems deal with it... 
hi pass about everything.  throw a multi-band compressor on the mix and solo the low bands.  i added a sub for mixing.  i still have resonant issues on home systems compared to pro mixes.  I use Sennheiser and Bose headphones (very different sound), as well as the other typical sources.
since you brought it up, i found this donation-ware that I'm going to look into:
http://www.roomeqwizard.com/
if anyone has used it, pls post your results.

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MondoArt
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 22:30:19 (permalink)
For me, a good mix is a good mix, whether it's on headphones, monitors, a hi-fi, the car, those Apple earbuds, whatever.  I used to have the same problem - bass heavy mixes.  I learned that my monitors don't have much bass, so I do most of my mixing on them, then switch to my computer speakers, which have a subwoofer, to manage the bass.  If the bass sounds a little weak on my monitors, I know it's probably OK in the real world.  Then I listen back in the car, on my iPod, on my little Bose bluetooth speaker and make notes about how they sound on each.
 
The other thing that helps immensely is a high-pass filter on most of your tracks.  Kick and bass guitar have to have special attention.

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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 22:36:33 (permalink)
How do you know which is right?  Home and car stereos often jack up the bass, and earbuds are all over the place.  The barnds all sound different and can even change by how they fit in your ears..
 
If you have good quality near-field monitors and listen at a moderate level, I would think you could get pretty close unless your room is really strange.

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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 22:39:01 (permalink)
konradh
How do you know which is right?  Home and car stereos often jack up the bass, and earbuds are all over the place.  The barnds all sound different and can even change by how they fit in your ears..
 



Mostly I judge based on my monitors and secondly, my PC speakers.  If I get it sounding good on them, it seems to translate pretty well anywhere else.

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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 22:55:27 (permalink)
konradh
How do you know which is right?  Home and car stereos often jack up the bass, and earbuds are all over the place.  



I try to get them to sound good where they'll be listened to. I also try really hard to make sure the band think it sounds good. Really, the band members are the people I listen to most. I struggle not to force them to like what I like. I try to keep working until all of the band likes it too.
 
As far as listening environments, I try to make it sound good in every listening environment I can listen on. If my car boosts the bass, your probably does too. If my wife listens with pop eq settings, yours might too. It helps to hear the variety. I do try to make sure it sounds pretty great with the EQ flat, but I keep a balance. For some people, I might have to tell them to push up the bass. :-)

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/14 23:04:36 (permalink)
I would again urge you to check out Sonarworks... If your brand of headphones is on their list of calibrated headphones, you can download the free trial.  It is the most direct way of getting a good headphone mix that translates to the real world.
 
Sonarworks has calibrated most high quality headphones use for studio monitoring.  and as Daniel noted, they work great.  Several of us urged them to model the KRK's, and within a month they'd done it.  A great company.
 
Like I say, if you have a high quality pair, they've probably modeled it and it's a 30 day free trial of the calibration software... If you're using crap headphones, you should upgrade... get something they've modeled and calibrated and all your headphone mixing sessions will yield better results when played on speakers.  The even have a calibration service if you have some high end headphones they haven't calibrated.
 
Decent monitors and room tuning are important, costly and time consuming to achieve.  Not saying you shouldn't pursue this but headphone mixing is often convenient if you're in a home based studio and I'll just say it this way:  you are foolish not to try out the software...
 
 
 
 
post edited by Vastman - 2015/11/14 23:16:40

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Tom Riggs
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 00:38:09 (permalink)
I use room eq from http://www.roomeqwizard.com/ to create a sample of my listening environment.
 
I used it to create a list of corrective eq settings that I setup using Sonitus EQ (in my case 2 instances to get enough nodes). I created a room compensation eq preset by putting the 2 instances of Sonitus EQ in an FXChain preset. I use that preset on an a "monitoring" bus that is fed from the main mix bus that outputs to my monitors.
 
Then when I bounce I just bounce the output of the main mix bus.
 
 

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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 02:05:45 (permalink)
gswitz
Really, the band members are the people I listen to most. I struggle not to force them to like what I like. I try to keep working until all of the band likes it too.

 
I don't work with outside clients any more. When I did, I thought I had a responsibility as their sound man to get the sound right. If they didn't like it I'd explain to them what I was doing and why. This led to many conflicts, as it turns out that musicians think they know best about audio engineering. In the end I would give them what they wanted, but I made a lot of records I wouldn't want to play for anybody.

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gswitz
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 05:45:52 (permalink)
Larry Jones
When I did, I thought I had a responsibility as their sound man to get the sound right. If they didn't like it I'd explain to them what I was doing and why.


It is often uncomfortable for me to stretch to the mix the band is asking for. For me, there is usually a range of mixes that are really good. Rather than going with the first one that I am happy with, I try to keep working. I can always return to listen to my first export. And I feel this has helped me be a better listener.

I have picked up techniques that really help.

One thing I have to resist is giving them a bad mix of what they are asking for. 'You want bass? I'll give you bass!'

I can't bring myself to deliver a mix I hate, but I can experiment along the way.
post edited by gswitz - 2015/11/15 05:59:47

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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jpetersen
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 11:07:53 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby rspagnuolo 2016/09/05 14:47:03
Forget mixing on headphones. Music is nearly NEVER heard in ideal conditions. Compare your mix to professional recordings on ALL systems, ESPECIALLY terrible ones.

a. Boominess can come from the most unexpected sources, not just bass and bass drum. Check each track.

b. Mastering tools like limiters, iZotope Oxygene, etc. can hide problems. Listen with them on and off, especially those on master busses.

c. If you can, take your DAW to the non-ideal location and listen right there to each track.
 
d. Mixes should be tested, yes, with very good monitors, but also on car hi-fis, ghetto blasters, earbuds, headphones AND in boomy, resonant rooms.


*** MY OWN PAINFUL JOURNEY OF DISCOVERY ***

I mix on Yamaha HS8 monitors in a well-damped 3x4m room. (I also switch between cheap computer speakers, Neumann KH120, Adam A5X, a butchered mono transistor radio, the matching Yamaha HS8S sub and Logitech gaming speakers with their own subwoofer - just to make that clear.)

A client complained my mixes were too bass-heavy. I disagreed. I went to his home and he has the SAME SPEAKERS I USE (HS8s) in a small echoey study with a large window down one side. One speaker is on a metal shelf, the other behind the door.

He played my mix and yes, it is boomy and bass-heavy.

I protested the poor acoustic conditions. He put on some commercial rock and pop CDs and perplexingly they sound good! (by comparison). He looked at me with a look that said, "You are clueless".

I moved around his study and found areas where the booming is worse, but I had to agree, my mix suffers far more. Back in my studio everything seems OK. I have no particularly boomy areas in my room.

I asked if I can bring my laptop and interface to his study for a test and he agreed.

What I discovered is most amazing:

1. The electric distorted rhythm guitar has a bass component. Switched to solo, it sounds warm and powerful - just the way one would want. But it had a resonant frequency that coincided with one in the client's boomy study. I had to crank HP rolloff all the way up to 250Hz to get rid of it. I found out that in the total mix this resonance hit the compressor and caused the bass guitar to duck. In my studio, all I'd noticed was a tonal shift. No boominess.

2. The bass guitar (recorded DI and mic'd) had a note where only the fundamental was present, hardly any harmonics. This made that note sound weaker so the bass player unconciously played it louder. Again, this found a boom frequency in the client's study, but seemed fine in my studio.

3. Finally, the floor tom also boomed. I'd shortened the decay with an envelope shaper which sounded fine in my studio, but again, it picked up a boom frequency at the client's room, so suddenly it rang longer than I'd shaped it to.

Fixes?

1. With the guitar rolled off so extremely it sounded thin on its own, but it worked in the total mix. So I left it like that.
In fact, it was here that I learned, like MondoArt has stated, that it is good practice to trim away frequencies from instruments that encroach on those of others, especially in the lower frequencies, but also higher frequencies, because they can also mess with mastering tools in unexpected ways.

2. Bass guitar was not fixable. I personally replayed all bass tracks, taking care to hear out the fingering positions of the original bass player and plucking nearer the bridge to create more harmonics and always watching the audio as I recorded to avoid peaks.

3. I replaced the toms manually with samples. Fortunately tom rolls only happened occasionally so it was only a day's work. Today I would just use the drum replacer.

*** RESPECT ***

I have enormous respect for mixing engineers. It is a huge amount of work with lots of gotchas and little thanks.

I also understand why the bands get thrown out when the final mix is done. The talent would be horrified to discover what really happens in there.


post edited by jpetersen - 2015/11/15 11:23:41
#26
sharke
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 19:25:47 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Vastman 2015/11/16 01:47:48
jpetersen
In fact, it was here that I learned, like MondoArt has stated, that it is good practice to trim away frequencies from instruments that encroach on those of others, especially in the lower frequencies, but also higher frequencies, because they can also mess with mastering tools in unexpected ways.



Any time I'm tempted to hi-pass something past 100-150Hz, I check myself, and use a low shelf instead. I think everyone at some point hears the advice to high pass everything except the kick and the bass to create this huge space for them, and it sounds like the magic you've been waiting for, especially if you've been struggling with mud and boominess in the low end. So they go nuts filtering everything at 200Hz and higher, which admittedly leaves a lot of room. But it also sucks a lot of warmth out of the mix and gives an overall brittle sound. I find that you can clear a lot of mud with a shelf cutting a few dB up to 250Hz or so, whilst retaining some of the warmth. I almost never hi-pass any higher than 80-100Hz on an instrument, and I've heard a few people say they don't do it at all. 

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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gswitz
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 21:16:05 (permalink)
sharke
Any time I'm tempted to hi-pass something past 100-150Hz, I check myself, and use a low shelf instead.


I use low shelf often on my dreadnought guitar.

Similarly, rather than completely muting track, I tend to dim it.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Anderton
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 22:32:36 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2016/09/06 09:48:04
jpetersen
In fact, it was here that I learned, like MondoArt has stated, that it is good practice to trim away frequencies from instruments that encroach on those of others, especially in the lower frequencies, but also higher frequencies, because they can also mess with mastering tools in unexpected ways.

 
I sort of agree, but you have to make value judgments, and choose what will produce the desired results; also sometimes it's the boosting, not the cutting, that causes the differentiation. For example, suppose kick and bass are fighting, you want to keep them centered in terms of stereo position, but you want the bass more prominent. You have several options.
 
1. Mix the bass higher.
2. Mix the kick lower.
3. Use EQ for a little less low end in the kick.
4. Use EQ to bring up pick noises and harmonics in the bass, then trim the bass's low end a bit to let the kick provide a greater proportion of low frequencies (which will overlap with the bass).
5. Slide the bass just a tiny bit (a couple milliseconds) ahead of the kick.
 
Also remember that a mix is an interlocking series of frequency spectra from the various instruments. For example, you may want to dip the midrange a bit on rhythm guitar when the singer is singing.
 
For this reason I start off mixes in mono so the instruments will "collide" with each other as much as possible. Then, you can adjust EQ to emphasize or de-emphasize particular instruments. Once everything sounds distinct and has its own space in mono, when you start creating a stereo field the whole mix widens up and creates a full, well-defined space. It's also more translatable, because the playback system's frequency response becomes less crucial as you've already done frequency response tailoring. You're not counting on the playback system to be capable of nuanced response.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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sharke
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Re: Preventing bass-heavy mixes (via monitoring EQ)? 2015/11/15 23:19:12 (permalink)
I'm trialing the Sonarworks plugin now. I opened the profile for my ATH M50's and the problem I have is that the plugin seems to attenuate the overall gain by a significant amount. Everything sounds quiet through it, even when I hit the big "bypass" button. If I turn the plugin off completely, the normal gain level resumes. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong. There is a level meter with a slider and that's turned up as far as it will go. 

James
Windows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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