Drone7 
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Price of Sonar
It's a competitive world, and therefore every company competes in price, so to some extent it's a matter of circumstance, because without competitors, companies tend to charge whatever they want, and usually quite high if they can get away with it, but all things considered, given the current state of affairs involving DAW selection, Sonar is one of the better deals. Here in Australia, we do have good suppliers for DAW software, and they do compete price-wise. Here are the prices for the various DAWs in Australian currency as of now. Pro Tools $799. Ableton Live (as is stated at Ableton's 'own' website) Live 9 Suite $749 Cubase $699 Sonar Platinum $608 Studio One $449 Lets give kudos here to Cakewalk, they are at the very least, competitive, and i'm thankful for that.
post edited by Drone7 - 2015/01/18 13:59:32
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Sanderxpander
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 13:16:10
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Huh over here it's
Live 9 Suite 519
Cubase 519
Sonar 449 (X3P, no Platinum yet)
Studio One 349
All in Euro.
Sonar isn't doing badly but the Ableton pricing seems really weirdly high in your list.
EDIT:
I just saw you took prices from their site. In that case Sonar goes for 550 here and Ableton for 599. Were you perhaps looking at Push+Ableton? Push is a considerable piece of hardware that they're currently pushing (haha...) you to buy with Ableton.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 13:48:12
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I suspect one reason for the pretty sudden appearance of the membership model was to catch the competition flat-footed. On the other hand, the surprise, angst and confusion created among current users provides an unprecedented opportunity for poaching by the other guys. I would be surprised if we did not start to see cross-grade offers from other DAWs in the near future.
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Drone7
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 14:19:04
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Sanderxpander
Huh over here it's
Live 9 Suite 519
Cubase 519
Sonar 449 (X3P, no Platinum yet)
Studio One 349
All in Euro.
Sonar isn't doing badly but the Ableton pricing seems really weirdly high in your list.
EDIT:
I just saw you took prices from their site. In that case Sonar goes for 550 here and Ableton for 599. Were you perhaps looking at Push+Ableton? Push is a considerable piece of hardware that they're currently pushing (haha...) you to buy with Ableton.
Yes, you're right, i looked at the wrong price-list at Ableton's website, the price i had stated ($1198) is with the dedicated hardware they call "Push". Anyway, your prices, in Euros, converted to Australian as of now... Cubase 519 Euros - equals $730 Australian (purchase price i quoted here... $699) Sonar 449 Euros - equals $630 Australian (purchase price i quoted here... $608) Studio One 349 Euros - equals $490 Australian (purchase price i quoted here... $449) Live 9 Suite 519 Euros - equals $730 Australian (purchase price i quoted here...$749) So, for Cubase, Sonar and Studio One, wherever it is that you're located, you're actually paying more. The exchange rate i gave you is based on my real-time currency converter up to the minute international exchange Rates. There are cheaper DAWs like Reaper and Mixcraft and Bitwig Studio, but none of those offer the types of tools or same caliber plugins that Sonar does. All things considered, i would say that Cakewalk have set the right price for Sonar. And, in fact, if anyone needs value-for-money, or has a low budget, Sonar Professional simply can't be beat. This shows intelligent analysis of the market by Cakewalk, and a keen understanding of how to best set price for a win-win situation. Hopefully Cakewalk is making a good profit at their current selling price, that way they can continue to improve Sonar and give us more plugins in the future.
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Gerry
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 14:24:58
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With the other Daws you mentioned you can transfer your license (Sell it) which is not the case with Sonar. Not meant as a crit just a statement of fact. Possibly why comparisons are sometimes odious.
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Sandmännchen
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 15:59:47
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Gerry, this is not true for Europe:
The European Court of Justice (ECJ), the uppermost legal body of the European Union, provided for final clarity with its judgement and declared trade in used computer programs to be fundamentally legitimate.
The ECJ also ruled that the trade in used software is also permitted with software transferred online.
The ECJ's ruling should also be applied to volume licenses and their splitting-up. The Higher Regional Court of Frankfurt confirmed this in proceedings between Adobe and usedSoft.
In justifying their verdict, the 13 judges of the Grand Chamber clearly stated that the principle of exhaustion applies to each initial sale of software. The Court even decreed that second purchasers may even download the software from the manufacturer again with licenses transferred online. "Furthermore, the exhaustion of the right of distribution extends to the version of the copy of the program upgraded and updated by the owner of the copyright," according to the European Court of Justice. The Court therefore went further than the concluding opinion of the ECJ Advocate General on 24 April 2012.
The ECJ's judgement was issued at the request of the German Federal Court of Justice. In the past, software manufacturers had utilised the partly ambiguous statutory regulations to discriminate against this trade and significantly intimidate customers. In principle, the resale of used computer programs was already legal.
The ECJ's judgement provides for legal certainty throughout the entire European Union. It is therefore to be expected that the trade in used software will now also grow strongly in other EU countries outside of Germany, its "country of origin".
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Gerry
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:19:24
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I now about that but what is the reallity? What is the official Cakewalk position? I will not be surprised that for legal reasons they do not have one LOL. Has anyone purchased a used version of Sonar and then asked Cakewalk to register it? Maybe the new system is more about this than anything else, now there is a thought.
I ask because I have 3 boxed versions of Producer cluttering up my studio that I am loath to throw in the recycle bin.
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mgh
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:24:08
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i suspect the official CW position is that Sonar is used so little in Europe it's not worth worrying about.
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scook
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:25:39
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Unless you paid the full retail price for each version, you still only have one license which was upgraded each time to the new version. If you gave away or sold the disks, there is no way the recipient can acquire a legitimate license to use the product unless you are willing to give them your license too.
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johnnyV
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:30:16
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Right now Sonar is by far the best bang for the buck. Way ahead of the rest as far as included instruments and plug ins.
Just compare Sonar's Artist with Cubase Elements. Both are $100. Sonar X 3 plain or the new Artist comes with triple the features.
Cubase Elements 7 is like using Cakewalks Music Creator 6 which is under $50.
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Gerry
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:30:35
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mgh
i suspect the official CW position is that Sonar is used so little in Europe it's not worth worrying about.
LOL you could be right and maybe it is one of the reasons why.
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Gerry
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:34:49
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scook
Unless you paid the full retail price for each version, you still only have one license which was upgraded each time to the new version. If you gave away or sold the disks, there is no way the recipient can acquire a legitimate license to use the product unless you are willing to give them your license too.
We are talking about selling the license as in can you sell/transer a Cakewalk Sonar license? You can with all the other DAWS mentioned.
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scook
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:42:25
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Anderton
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 16:58:46
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slartabartfast
On the other hand, the surprise, angst and confusion created among current users provides an unprecedented opportunity for poaching by the other guys. I don't think so. Most people who've read the FAQ or know Cakewalk's history get it, and if you read the early reports from Platinum users, it's looking pretty good overall. Also, multiple posts from one user under different aliases does not count as multiple people. There really aren't that many actual, unique individuals who don't see at least the potential of the model. What's in the current update is pretty powerful. Yet there will also be more features coming down the pike. So if upgraders like what they see now, they have nothing to lose. If they're on the fence, it's highly likely enough stuff will show up over the next year that they'll be happy, and hopefully, will be happy enough to renew. If not, then they can carry on merrily with what they have. For someone buying a DAW for the first time, the value of SONAR in general in undeniable. Add in a year's worth of updates and content, and that's a tough proposition to beat. It's really quite simple and compelling, unless someone feels this is a bad-faith, greedy attempt to pull the wool over users' eyes, and extract as much money as possible while giving as little as possible in return. If they truly believe that, then of course they believe that what Cakewalk is doing is horrible.
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slartabartfast
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 17:06:59
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Gerry
scook
Unless you paid the full retail price for each version, you still only have one license which was upgraded each time to the new version. If you gave away or sold the disks, there is no way the recipient can acquire a legitimate license to use the product unless you are willing to give them your license too.
We are talking about selling the license as in can you sell/transer a Cakewalk Sonar license? You can with all the other DAWS mentioned.
Some foreign jurisdictions do not recognize the non-transfer clause in a software license, deciding that if it looks like a sale it is a sale, and that ownership includes the right to sell or give away what you bought. This principle, known as the "first sale doctrine" in US law applies to the purchase of a book, CD etc., but has been successfully attacked when the product sold is characterized as a license, so such transfers do not fly in the US. At the same time, there is probably no obligation in any jurisdiction that would compel Cakewalk to offer an upgrade price to someone who bought a license from someone else, in Germany for example. And as Scook notes above, the upgrade license may be characterized as an extension of the original license. In that case, a sale of your license might make not only you, but your buyer unable to get an upgrade. http://www.justice.gov/usao/eousa/foia_reading_room/usam/title9/crm01854.htm
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Anderton
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 17:20:01
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Wow, I read that and my head didn't explode! Good explanation. Thanks.
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Gerry
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 17:45:35
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Thanks for the informative replies but I think you will all agree to my initial statement as being the simple fact.
"With the other Daws you mentioned you can transfer your license (Sell it) which is not the case with Sonar. Not meant as a crit just a statement of fact. Possibly why comparisons are sometimes odious."
I am in no doubt at all that Sonar is mega value for the money and that is not in dispute for my part but it is completely different from the other main players who allow you to sell on a purchased license. Am I right in saying that the new set up means that with Sonar you never ever own the license in the first place so the the question of selling it is completely removed from the equation? Now I hope that question gets a simple yes or no.
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CadErik
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 17:54:56
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Drone7
Lets give kudos here to Cakewalk, they are at the very least, competitive, and i'm thankful for that.
The Platinum version contains 3 AD2 kits which are worth the whole upgrade price. It is a great deal.
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scook
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 18:06:37
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Gerry
Am I right in saying that the new set up means that with Sonar you never ever own the license
No. Once you pay for the product, you get the same perpetual license as before.
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Drone7
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 18:08:21
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I didn't know this situation about Cakewalk software. Can't resell it, is that true?
I've sold other DAWs with a clear conscience, by default of unwritten universal law we have a right to sell 'anything' we own, and that includes a software license. If this is indeed Cakewalk's policy, i'm quite disappointed; why does Cakewalk have this policy?
And anyway, if someone was really intent on selling their copy of Sonar, what is to stop them from simply giving the account details to the buyer so that they can then simply go in and change the name and email details to their own and everything is sweet. Cakewalk would never know that the original buyer had sold it, would they?
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slartabartfast
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 18:45:41
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Drone7
I didn't know this situation about Cakewalk software. Can't resell it, is that true?
I've sold other DAWs with a clear conscience, by default of unwritten universal law we have a right to sell 'anything' we own, and that includes a software license. If this is indeed Cakewalk's policy, i'm quite disappointed; why does Cakewalk have this policy?
And anyway, if someone was really intent on selling their copy of Sonar, what is to stop them from simply giving the account details to the buyer so that they can then simply go in and change the name and email details to their own and everything is sweet. Cakewalk would never know that the original buyer had sold it, would they?
One of the advantages of a copy protection scheme is that it provides another way of enforcing a policy that does not require access to legal interpretation or enforcement. So it is fine to say that a buyer has the right to copy a song from his own CD to his own computer and then to his own MP3 player for his own use. That would seem to be well within the meaning of US copyright law: Title 17 USC § 1008. Prohibition on certain infringement actions "No action may be brought under this title alleging infringement of copyright based on the manufacture, importation, or distribution of a digital audio recording device, a digital audio recording medium, an analog recording device, or an analog recording medium, or based on the noncommercial use by a consumer of such a device or medium for making digital musical recordings or analog musical recordings." But nothing prevents the vendor from using an encryption or activation scheme to prevent such copying, and there are also provisions that make it a criminal offense to provide or communicate any mechanism that will defeat such a scheme. In the case above, without fraudulently misidentifying yourself as the owner of the account entitled to activation, you could not get your new installation activated. That would almost certainly constitute civil or criminal fraud, just as if you falsely identified yourself as the owner of a bank account.
post edited by slartabartfast - 2015/01/18 20:42:36
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johnnyV
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/18 23:37:03
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Other than for taking advantage of upgrades and patches, there was actually no reason to register your name with Cakewalk in the past. This is the beauty of the new model from their prospective. Everybody will be registered properly now. I normally ignore offers to register any software. Some of my older versions were registered but I would immediately forget and loose my account info. I had no idea there might be good reasons to register. One must understand, if you don't belong to this forum you will not have a clue about any of this stuff. Because we don't have a music store here, we tend to buy stuff off each other a lot. Over time I have always obtained my copies from other local musicians who would sell the software the same as we sell old Effects pedals we don't like or use. I had no clue this was illegal and I doubt they did either. It was just another item you bought new and no longer needed. At least I was buying boxed versions and not downloading cracks.
post edited by johnnyV - 2015/01/19 11:57:52
Sonar X3e Studio - Waiting for Professional Scarlett 6i6Yamaha Gear= 01v - NSM 10 - DTX 400 - MG82cx Roland Gear= A 49- GR 50 - TR 505 - Boss pedalsTascam Gear= DR 40 - US1641 -Mackie Gear= Mix 8 - SRM 350's i5 Z97 3.2GHZ quad 16 Gig RAM W 8.1 home buildTaylor mini GS - G& L Tribute Tele - 72 Fender Princeton - TC BH 250 - Mooer and Outlaw Pedals Korg 05/RW
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Gerry
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 05:01:29
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scook
Gerry
Am I right in saying that the new set up means that with Sonar you never ever own the license
No. Once you pay for the product, you get the same perpetual license as before.
Surely if you own something you should be able to sell it? Perhaps a point in case would help. A first time user of Sonar buys the boxed version of Platinum and pays the yearly sum up front. After three months decides that for whatever reason it is not suitable for their workflow etc. Can they sell their boxed version and also the remaining nine months updates? Does Cakewalk have a way of facilitating the transfer of the license and remaing updates to a new owner? If the answer is no then that is the difference between Sonar and the other daws mentioned in the first comparisons that were made. Not a deal breaker but a difference that should be acknowledged.
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mudgel
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 05:20:48
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As it stands with the current EULA that is indeed the case.
It is a non expiring licence for the exclusive use of the licensee and not transferable. You may install it on more than one machine but can only use one installation at any one time.
I don't like the idea that it's not transferable but I've never before wanted to sell any software. I would have to hand over all my discs etc since Sonar Producer 3 as that has been the only full version I've ever bought in the Sonar line. The others that followed have always been upgrades. So I only have one licence.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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Gerry
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 05:31:41
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mudgel
As it stands with the current EULA that is indeed the case.
It is a non expiring licence for the exclusive use of the licensee and not transferable. You may install it on more than one machine but can only use one installation at any one time.
I don't like the idea that it's not transferable but I've never before wanted to sell any software. I would have to hand over all my discs etc since Sonar Producer 3 as that has been the only full version I've ever bought in the Sonar line. The others that followed have always been upgrades. So I only have one licence.
Thank you for that and as I said not a deal breaker. I am in a similar boat as you although I stayed at Producer 7 and moved to Cubase which I stayed at 5. A plus for Sonar is that the upgrade pricing is much more reasonable than Cubase as upgrading from Cubase 5 to 8 is mega bucks but you can sell it. Any Producer to Platinum is one heck of a tempting deal but you can't sell it. As said not a deal breaker but certainly a consideration.
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mudgel
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 06:48:19
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You never know, now that Cakewalk have been really bolstering their backend so to speak, perhaps the idea of transferring licences may be up for discussion. I can see the administrative nightmare but with all the changes who knows, the day may well come.
Mike V. (MUDGEL) STUDIO: Win 10 Pro x64, SPlat & CbB x64, PC: ASUS Z370-A, INTEL i7 8700k, 32GIG DDR4 2400, OC 4.7Ghz. Storage: 7 TB SATA III, 750GiG SSD & Samsung 500 Gig 960 EVO NVMe M.2. Monitors: Adam A7X, JBL 10” Sub. Audio I/O & DSP Server: DIGIGRID IOS & IOX. Screen: Raven MTi + 43" HD 4K TV Monitor. Keyboard Controller: Native Instruments Komplete Kontrol S88.
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stevec
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 11:50:38
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FWIW... in some post in some thread, someone from CW did mention the *possibility* of license transfers in the future. I don't recall that ever being mentioned as a possibility before.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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BassDaddy
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 12:01:48
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CadErik
Drone7
Lets give kudos here to Cakewalk, they are at the very least, competitive, and i'm thankful for that.
The Platinum version contains 3 AD2 kits which are worth the whole upgrade price. It is a great deal.
I keep saying that. Buy your Addictive Drums Producer Bundle and get a free 1 year ticket to the show. All the details will be made clear. No matter how "Doom and Gloom", angry, cynical or constipated you are, buy the drums, get a front row seat.
It's Bass, not Bass. i7 2700K, 16GB DDR3, 2 SSD sample drives and OS drive, HDD SATAIII for projects, 2 24" monitors Focusrite Saffire Pro 24, Focusrite VRM Box, LAVA Lamp, SONAR Platinum 64 bit, Mackie MCU and 1 MCU XT, Akai Advance 49, Windows 10, Komplete 9 Ultimate, Cakewalk, Toontrack, IK, AAS, XLN, UVI, Air Music Tech, Waves Factory, Sample Tek and Sonivox VSTi's. Overloud, T-Racks, Audio Damage, D16, Nomad Factory, Waves Gold FX
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Drone7
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 13:18:07
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This policy seems a bit pedantic and draconian IMO. If you bought a $100,000 Mercedes Benz but then the company said you couldn't sell it when your done with it, wouldn't that be a bit silly?
On principle alone that's a deal-breaker to me. Such a scenario certainly makes Studio One look more attractive. $147 cheaper, and i can sell it when and if i wish. And ver III of Studio One is just around the corner. Here's the EULA at the Presonus website... "Provided you do not retain copies of the Licensed Software, you are permitted to permanently transfer your license to another party to use the Licensed Software". Any latest comments from Cakewalk about this would certainly be appreciated; any change-of-mind being considered at the moment Cakewalk?
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Drone7
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Re: Price of Sonar
2015/01/19 13:18:38
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