BlixYZ
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 08:10:47
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pt has delay compensation, but not automatic delay compensation for all types of plugins. its only fair that i point out that pt HD does not have the monitoring issues i described, and that is what this thread was originally about
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Middleman
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 14:13:17
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Only the LE and M-powered versions have that problem the full versions of Protools have ADC.
From the PT HD users guide.
'Pro Tools provides automatic Delay Compensation for managing delays from plug-in and hardware inserts, and mixer routing (bussing and sends). With Delay Compensation enabled, Pro Tools maintains phase coherent time alignment between tracks that have plug-ins with differing DSP delays, tracks with different mixing paths, tracks that are split off and recombined within the mixer, and tracks with hardware inserts. To maintain phase coherent time alignment, Delay Compensation should always be enabled during playback and mixing. Delay Compensation should also be used in most recording situations.'
In layman's terms when some plug-ins or external hardware is added into the signal chain of a channel delays can occur between the time the signal enters the item and when it returns to the mix path. This is not the same for every plug-in or piece of hardware and therefore adds varying amounts of delay, in addition those channels with no inserts, either from a plug-in or hardware insert, will have no delay.
What ADC does is correct these delays by calculating the delays and compensating for them automatically. If delays remain in a mix it can affect the phase coherence between tracks. For example imagine you have tracked a drum kit and then afterwards add some compression to toms and compression and reverb to the snare drum. In many cases this will add minor delays to the tom and snare channels so that the other tracks now play ahead, in some cases this will add phase issues.
Pro Tools HD and HD Native have ADC which means that the software makes the corrections to account for this. Pro Tools LE and M Powered do not have this, which means an engineer must first work out the delays induced into tracks through plug-ins and inserts and then make manual adjustments."
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Rain
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 14:37:12
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IIRC, Pro Tools M-Powered 9 had ADC. Not that it matters anymore, anyway.
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aleef
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 16:04:29
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regardless, the OP's anti-Pro Tools crusade, has been really snotty. a while back, he used the term "Pro Fools". he always seems to be telling somebody, what they should be using, and where this thing is going, without any concrete audio proof. he has even went so far to say.. "We here in Europe only use the best" as is if history hasn't proved that the states keep producing the cutting edge.
like i said before ..Snap out of it man.
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sharke
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 16:09:54
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Middleman
Only the LE and M-powered versions have that problem the full versions of Protools have ADC.
From the PT HD users guide.
'Pro Tools provides automatic Delay Compensation for managing delays from plug-in and hardware inserts, and mixer routing (bussing and sends). With Delay Compensation enabled, Pro Tools maintains phase coherent time alignment between tracks that have plug-ins with differing DSP delays, tracks with different mixing paths, tracks that are split off and recombined within the mixer, and tracks with hardware inserts. To maintain phase coherent time alignment, Delay Compensation should always be enabled during playback and mixing. Delay Compensation should also be used in most recording situations.'
In layman's terms when some plug-ins or external hardware is added into the signal chain of a channel delays can occur between the time the signal enters the item and when it returns to the mix path. This is not the same for every plug-in or piece of hardware and therefore adds varying amounts of delay, in addition those channels with no inserts, either from a plug-in or hardware insert, will have no delay.
What ADC does is correct these delays by calculating the delays and compensating for them automatically. If delays remain in a mix it can affect the phase coherence between tracks. For example imagine you have tracked a drum kit and then afterwards add some compression to toms and compression and reverb to the snare drum. In many cases this will add minor delays to the tom and snare channels so that the other tracks now play ahead, in some cases this will add phase issues.
Pro Tools HD and HD Native have ADC which means that the software makes the corrections to account for this. Pro Tools LE and M Powered do not have this, which means an engineer must first work out the delays induced into tracks through plug-ins and inserts and then make manual adjustments."
I don't know when that manual was written but it's out of date - Pro Tools 9 M-Powered has ADC. EDIT: I see Rain got there first! Didn't notice, sorry 
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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swamptooth
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 16:16:41
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setting affinity in windows is a two-step process. the first is in sonar:
in preferences/config file you need to set "enablesetthreadidealprocessor" to false
step two is creating a bat file that will look something like this:
start "sonar 7cpu" /affinity 0xFE "C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\SONAR X2 Producer\SONARPDR.exe"
the affinity option is a hex representation of the processors you want to use converted from a binary number made up of all your cpus. i have 8 cores on my system so it would be an 8 bit binary mask ie. 11111111 where each digit represents a core. the cores are read from right to left, so it's laid out like this: core # 76543210
my start option wants to use cores 1 thru 7, so the binary is 11111110 which converts to hex of FE.
say you want to use cores 4567, then the binary would be 11110000 and the hex F0 and the resultant start command would be
start "<YOURSHORTNAMEHERE>" /affinity 0xF0 "C:\Program Files\Cakewalk\SONAR X2 Producer\SONARPDR.exe"
just thot i'd toss that out there if anyone's interested.
Arvid H. PetersonSonar X3E Prod / X2A / X1PE | Cubase 9.5.1 | Reason 9.5 | Sibelius7 | Pure DataNative-Instruments Komplete 10 Ultimate and a smattering of other pluginsHome-brewed VSTs Toshiba Satellite S855-S5378 (16GB RAM, modified with 2x 750GB HDDs, Windows 8.1 x64) Samson Graphite 49, M-Audio Oxygen 49, Korg nanoPAD2, Webcam motion tracking programs M-Audio Fast Track UltraMember, ASCAP
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Middleman
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 17:38:39
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sharke
I don't know when that manual was written but it's out of date - Pro Tools 9 M-Powered has ADC.
EDIT: I see Rain got there first! Didn't notice, sorry
I pulled that off a search. Very much could be outdated but the fact is that the information and PT has had ADC for sometime yet people keep saying it doesn't.
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Rain
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/03 17:52:01
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I guess they all just read it on a forum and never bothered to verify. ;)
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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carlosagm79
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/04 01:26:19
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I found that Sonar ( I don't know about Steinberg products, but they should probably have it, just like FL Studio) have a limiter integrated to deal with high level and over-driving, and yeah, Pro tools is very sensitive about digital distortion, you have to put a Waves L2 everywhere to solve the issue..again I'm testing Pro Tools 8 in a powerful Mac, not too much experience...
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Middleman
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/04 01:29:33
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carlosagm79
I found that Sonar ( I don't know about Steinberg products, but they should probably have it, just like FL Studio) have a limiter integrated to deal with high level and over-driving, and yeah, Pro tools is very sensitive about digital distortion, you have to put a Waves L2 everywhere to solve the issue..again I'm testing Pro Tools 8 in a powerful Mac, not too much experience...
That issue is really irrelevent in any DAW if you are gain staging properly and leaving yourself headroom. Limiters are not required for mixing but they can be a nice controller for high transient things like drum busses.
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carlosagm79
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/05 01:58:45
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That issue is really irrelevent in any DAW if you are gain staging properly and leaving yourself headroom. Limiters are not required for mixing but they can be a nice controller for high transient things like drum busses.
Did you ever saw the original video comparison between Nuendo and Pro Tools?
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/05 02:30:45
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Read my post #25. It sort of explains things. That video is rubbish. I have been using PT for years and never experienced anything like it. I don't think Freddie knows Pro Tools very well either otherwise he would not post such a stupid video.
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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carlosagm79
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/05 08:39:44
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Yeah, I don't have much experience with Pro Tools, but of course I supposed there was something stupid about that video...
But I tell you what, the old DIGI 001 at 16 bits is like a saw, if you overload the headroom a bit, it will distort inmediately (like no other audio interface tested by me)..in 24 bits works perfect, now I'm testing a DIGI 003 control and seems great, of course.
But I'm learning the mixing workflow of Pro Tools ,and I get into clipping more often than Sonar, I'm sure is my inexperience...
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/05 15:16:13
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Hi there Carl. It should not matter whether floating or fixed point processing is used there seems to be a fascination for people working in the DAW world to be sending signals around the place at various points in the signal chain that are just so high and basically there is no need to do it at all. It is something that is has been brought forward from analog recording where higher levels were desirable in order to keep a good signal to noise ratio happening. It is so easy to avoid clipping on tracks, busses and the final masterbuss. And this also includes any or all of your plugins as well. Once you get into 24 bit as the digital noise floor is just so low it is of no consequence really and a whole world opens up where one starts working down at a much lower ref level. Once you treat your ref level as the rms ref level then everything falls into place really. If you choose say -20 dB as a ref level then you are working with signals that have an average rms level of -20 dB FS with a whopping 20 dB of headroom above that. Same applies to plugins. You can come into and go out of a plugin the same way leaving lots of headroom inside the plugin too. (unless you want to push a plugin for creative purposes and that is quite OK too but you can still come out at the ref level again though) VU meters (real or plugins as well) are excellent for checking ref rms levels at any point in your signal chain. Even peak meters are going to show you if you are too close to 0dB FS. The ref level approach works the same way on busses and the final masterbuss. That is why I have never heard Pro Tools distort when I work with it no matter what version it is. I don't see one clip light anywhere on any DAW that I use. Once you apply a concept such as K System metering etc you will get the same very clean result on any DAW. (good advice for everyone here!) Stop trying to make your mixes sound loud and sound like the final mastered thing. Forget it. When mixing you can keep everything low and detailed and very clean. Turn your monitoring level up to the level you want to hear you mix at, that is the way to do it. Mastering is the time to make things more compressed, limited and ultimately louder.
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/03/05 15:45:38
Specs i5-2500K 3.5 Ghz - 8 Gb RAM - Win 7 64 bit - ATI Radeon HD6900 Series - RME PCI HDSP9632 - Steinberg Midex 8 Midi interface - Faderport 8- Studio One V4 - iMac 2.5Ghz Core i5 - Sierra 10.12.6 - Focusrite Clarett thunderbolt interface Poor minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas -Eleanor Roosevelt
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/05 15:45:51
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Good post Jeff.
Most of it is really basic stuff, but sometimes it needs to be spelled out for the benefit of all, newbies & old hands alike.
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sharke
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/05 15:50:54
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One thing that annoys me is that many synth presets have the synth's master volume cranked up as high as possible by default. So when you're browsing through presets for a sound to tweak, you either have to turn the volume down on the synth every time or turn the input gain down on the track in order to stop it from overloading the ProChannel. Z3TA is notorious for this. I find that I have to turn the master volume on that synth down to about 15-20% in order to get an acceptable starting point for gain staging.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Middleman
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/05 16:44:46
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Jeff Evans
(good advice for everyone here!) Stop trying to make your mixes sound loud and sound like the final mastered thing. Forget it. When mixing you can keep everything low and detailed and very clean. Turn your monitoring level up to the level you want to hear you mix at, that is the way to do it. Mastering is the time to make things more compressed, limited and ultimately louder.
Sound advice (sic)
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re:Pro Tools HD "stone age" VS any other DAW. [:D]
2013/03/06 04:51:08
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sharke
One thing that annoys me is that many synth presets have the synth's master volume cranked up as high as possible by default. So when you're browsing through presets for a sound to tweak, you either have to turn the volume down on the synth every time or turn the input gain down on the track in order to stop it from overloading the ProChannel. Z3TA is notorious for this. I find that I have to turn the master volume on that synth down to about 15-20% in order to get an acceptable starting point for gain staging.
Very true sharke. I always slap a brickwall limiter on my synth bus when I'm auditioning patches, to protect both ears & monitors
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
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