Drone7 
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Pro Tools copied Sonar
From Avid themselves: Buy or upgrade to Pro Tools 11 now—or purchase an upgrade and support plan if you're already current—and you'll automatically get Pro Tools 12 for free, plus one year of future updates, upgrades, and support. There is also now the option to Subscribe to Pro Tools software: Access the software through a low-cost monthly or annual subscription, purchase and own the software (perpetual license), or purchase it as part of a Pro Tools | Duet, Pro Tools | Quartet, Pro Tools | Mbox, or Pro Tools | Eleven Rack bundle; I wonder if this was just coincidence or if Avid copied Cakewalk or vice-versa.
post edited by Drone7 - 2015/01/25 18:31:17
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dubdisciple
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 18:31:21
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I think pro tools started subcription model before Cakewalk but it matters not. So far Cakewalk's subscription model ( and in some ways it is unfair to describe it as such) is better than most in that there is more flexibility and there is always the option to stay pat and keep what you have paid for rwther than all or nothing.
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FidelityMusic
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 18:31:24
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Avid released their new subscription model months before Sonar.
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mdages
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 18:31:51
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Avid released this in Oct/2014. Maybe such plan are the future of professional software marketing.
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DonM
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 18:40:19
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I can think of dozens of functionality items that Avon copied in Partial Tools from Sonar … Clip Gain, In Project Clip Fades, 64 Bit Mix Engine, Track Freezing - oh my Partial Tools doesn't have Freezing yet, Offline Bounce, Automatic Delay Compensation, …. should I go on?
-D
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dubdisciple
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 18:43:43
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We will see. I'm sure all vendors love it, but it remains to be seen whether consumers do. I find that, at least with Adobe, it is mixed with the tone that if any reasonably priced product that was as good could be had without this model, they would clean up. I think Sonar's approach is smart in that it is not so draconian that people will leave in droves. Many will at least give it a try before jumping to software they most likely liked less than Sonar to begin with.
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gswitz
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 18:57:05
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The software delivery model is very old. Sonar/Avid did not invent it. They only jumped on the bandwagon because it's a better way to do development and the customer base has grown savvy enough to cope.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 20:11:48
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Yeah, I'm a bit miffed at the Avid boys. So far the features of PT 12 seem to be tools to help you collaborate in the cloud with other musicians. (Something that a lot of us have been doing via FTP for years.) That, and a built in front end for their online store where you can easily buy their over priced plugins and never leave your Pro Tools session. That's a mighty weak feature set for $30.00 a month.
post edited by Mod Bod - 2015/01/25 20:18:06
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DonM
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 21:32:14
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Mod Bod
Yeah, I'm a bit miffed at the Avid boys. So far the features of PT 12 seem to be tools to help you collaborate in the cloud with other musicians.
That's a mighty weak feature set for $30.00 a month.
M: I think the online feature is great so that all the Partial Tools users can commiserate over the dropping Avon stock, count the layoffs, and dream about track freeze. Of course they also can fantasize about how they invented offline bounce …. The forum over there is not as Ducky as it used to be. -D
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Rain
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/25 22:32:45
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Mod Bod
Yeah, I'm a bit miffed at the Avid boys. So far the features of PT 12 seem to be tools to help you collaborate in the cloud with other musicians. (Something that a lot of us have been doing via FTP for years.) That, and a built in front end for their online store where you can easily buy their over priced plugins and never leave your Pro Tools session.
That's a mighty weak feature set for $30.00 a month.
I don't know why they insist on calling it 12. Avid certainly jump up versions a lot quicker than they used to. I remember PT 5 received I don't know how many revisions over the course of 4 years, some including much more significant improvements like Beat Detective and Surround (PT 5.1). Not that I care much aout the numbering, since I get all free updates until March 2016, whether their point release or full-fledged upgrades. And so far, I haven't got a use for all the cloud stuff. I'm quite happy with 11 and I just don't see what 12 brings that deserves to be considered a major upgrade.
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theheliosequence
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/26 02:11:22
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Yeah, 12 is looking pretty weak. I know I was disappointed by the announcement... but I'm sure I'll end up upgrading by the end of the year because it brings money into the studio and allows collaboration with most of the people I know here in Portland minus a few Logic users - but I have Logic so I can export AAF... back into Pro Tools. I still have never met a single person who also uses Sonar... I've been using Cakewalk since '95. I miss those little black circles indicating where midi information was...
It does make me more happy about Platinum's release... it's surprisingly solid for a first version!
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mettelus
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/26 02:43:21
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dubdisciple
[...] Many will at least give it a try before jumping to software they most likely liked less than Sonar to begin with.
I do not think this is as large an issue as people deciding "what they have" is sufficient. Examples abound of products that mature to a level that they drive their own price down, and from a software perspective older versions tend to "do the most useful core functionality" already. Office 2007 (or even 2003), Adobe CS 6 (or lower), etc. I even carry a thumb drive with Paint Shop Pro 5 on it to modify pictures on any PC on the fly (it is only 18MB, does a lot "as is," and was written in 1997 (I think)). The demographics is another issue... people who make money with it will typically have no issues to stay current. Hobbyists are a bit more fickle in this regard, especially if they only use it a couple hours a week (or month). My concern is more for new users, who will evaluate "what they can do" in X amount of time versus the investment in the same period. The other concern with that is a truly new user not only has to get up to speed, but also learn (in a potentially painful manner) that audio interfaces, MIDI controllers, microphones, monitors, etc. also are "embedded" into the cost of owning a DAW (which can be a tough pill to swallow).
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Drone7
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/26 03:50:33
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Mod Bod
Yeah, I'm a bit miffed at the Avid boys. So far the features of PT 12 seem to be tools to help you collaborate in the cloud with other musicians. (Something that a lot of us have been doing via FTP for years.) That, and a built in front end for their online store where you can easily buy their over priced plugins and never leave your Pro Tools session.
That's a mighty weak feature set for $30.00 a month.
Couldn't have put it better myself! My sentiments exactly. Really this should have been a .5 update, if that. I'm getting a bit tired of these companies that seem like they're trying to pass-off a minor update as a full-fledged major update. Steinberg have just pulled the same stunt with Cubase 8. They must think we are all on drugs LOL, either that or they think we have door-mat written on our foreheads ROFL. But really, this whole half-arsed DAW update trend just makes me sigh with disgust quite frankly. It seems that Pro tools on the face of it is either taking potential customers for a pack of fools, or they're taking their current customer-base for granted, either that or they're being presumptuous enough to think that their current users are loaded with cash and have no choice but to take the plunge. Not good! Whatever way one might look at it, the new official price at Avids website of $899 for the standard version has given me cause for amusement and a cynical s****. If one were to analyze the mentality behind this new pricing, it would seem this Avid tactic wreaks of desperation or prime time arrogance, neither of which leave me impressed in the least.
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Drone7
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/26 03:54:28
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DonM
I can think of dozens of functionality items that Avon copied in Partial Tools from Sonar.
-D
For me here in Australia to be familiar with Avon, i think that makes the brand ubiquitous doesn't it? Very slick use of appropriate mockery as far as i'm concerned. I take it that Pro Tools is overrated then? I'm of the opinion that Avid has priced themselves out of the market from day one, but some habits die hard by the looks of it. I've seen this type of arrogance and stubborn pride with many companies, AND THEY ALWAYS GO BUST AS A RESULT, ALWAYS! When these companies refuse to compete on price, believe me, they die a miserable death. "Partial Tools"... i wasn't familiar with that as a description of Pro tools, but nonetheless... ROFL
post edited by Drone7 - 2015/01/26 04:07:37
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Rain
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/26 14:14:41
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Drone7
I take it that Pro Tools is overrated then?
Depends on what one means by "overrated". I prefer to see things objectively and look at the software itself rather than the hype or the anti-hype. I just don't get all the hate and I don't see how it benefits anything or anyone. For all the missing features which make it a lesser DAW according to some, Pro Tools is still the single most used DAW in the industry, and by far. Proof is in the pudding, as they say - in spite of the so-called shortcomings, people manage to record, edit and mix the bulk of what you hear out there in Pro Tools. One has to believe that those shortcomings are anything but show stoppers. One may notice that pretty much every manufacturer out there (and their fanboys along with them) will dismiss the importance of certain features until the day they are implemented. Then they become part of the sales pitch. Whether it's Cakewalk vs VST3 or Avid vs offline bounce, it's all the same. Pro Tools doesn't have track freeze - as a workaround, you can bounce down tracks. Sonar doesn't have flexible routing options, and yet, people get by. And for what it's worth, personally, I'll take routing options over track freeze every time. It's easy to dismiss a tool because it doesn't suit one's workflow, but it goes a bit deeper than that. There are reasons why Pro Tools didn't do offline bounce, the software engine having been designed to work with hardware. The paradigm changed and eventually, Avid had to rewrite the software from the ground up, and then implemented offline bounce. Yet, I know plenty of engineers who still do real-time bounces...
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BassDaddy
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/01/26 14:23:54
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quote=dubdisciple]
So far Cakewalk's subscription model ( and in some ways it is unfair to describe it as such) is better than most in that there is more flexibility and there is always the option to stay pat and keep what you have paid for rwther than all or nothing.
I think you are right, it is unfair. The only thing that has changed is you can pay for it on monthly installments if you want to and we are promised fixes and upgrades in the second half of the yearly cycle, not just the first few months.
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Dave Modisette
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/02/02 20:41:15
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☄ Helpfulby Rain 2015/02/02 22:03:10
Rain
Drone7
I take it that Pro Tools is overrated then?
Depends on what one means by "overrated". I prefer to see things objectively and look at the software itself rather than the hype or the anti-hype. I just don't get all the hate and I don't see how it benefits anything or anyone.
For all the missing features which make it a lesser DAW according to some, Pro Tools is still the single most used DAW in the industry, and by far. Proof is in the pudding, as they say - in spite of the so-called shortcomings, people manage to record, edit and mix the bulk of what you hear out there in Pro Tools. One has to believe that those shortcomings are anything but show stoppers.
One may notice that pretty much every manufacturer out there (and their fanboys along with them) will dismiss the importance of certain features until the day they are implemented. Then they become part of the sales pitch. Whether it's Cakewalk vs VST3 or Avid vs offline bounce, it's all the same.
Pro Tools doesn't have track freeze - as a workaround, you can bounce down tracks. Sonar doesn't have flexible routing options, and yet, people get by. And for what it's worth, personally, I'll take routing options over track freeze every time.
It's easy to dismiss a tool because it doesn't suit one's workflow, but it goes a bit deeper than that. There are reasons why Pro Tools didn't do offline bounce, the software engine having been designed to work with hardware. The paradigm changed and eventually, Avid had to rewrite the software from the ground up, and then implemented offline bounce. Yet, I know plenty of engineers who still do real-time bounces...
I also don't think Pro Tools is overrated at all. I really have learned to like PT 11. Beat Detective and Elastic Audio are very good and I have learned to love the I/O abilities that PT gives me. You can rout just about anything to anything. That doesn't seem to be a big deal until you've used it. The PT team and the Cakewalk family have some things in common. Sometimes you may want a feature and it seems so logical and necessary to have that feature but they point out that there is another way to accomplish the task and they can't seem to see why you feel the new feature is necessary. One thing that I don't like about PT is that as a PT11 native user, I feel like a red headed step child. To most in the community, it's not real PT.
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bapu
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/02/03 16:57:38
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Who's gonna have to pay who (ala Petty v. Smith)?
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Larry Jones
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Re: Pro Tools copied Sonar
2015/02/05 23:35:28
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BassDaddy
The only thing that has changed is you can pay for it on monthly installments if you want to and we are promised fixes and upgrades in the second half of the yearly cycle, not just the first few months.
No, something else has changed (Full disclosure: I am a happy Sonar Platinum user.): It used to be that the freebies -- third party stuff used by Cakewalk to get users to upgrade -- were a known quantity, offered upfront as part of your upgrade package. If you were short on cash, satisfied with the older version or not interested in the enticements, you could jump off the upgrade path for a year or two and save some money, with full knowledge of what exactly you were declining. Under the new model, the enticements are mysterious surprises hinted at somewhere down the road. The only thing you know for sure about them is if you are not a member you won't get 'em. So it gets harder to skip an upgrade, not knowing what you could be missing out on. One of the things that attracted me to this product, and keeps me loyal, is the wide range of stuff they give their users. I realize $200/yr as opposed to $150 every two or three years is not a lot of money, but it is a bump, and I don't run a commercial venture, so I'm out of pocket for every upgrade. So that's what's different. And don't forget, I am not a disgruntled troll. Please read my "full disclosure" above.
post edited by Larry Jones - 2015/02/06 12:33:30
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