Problem with the SONAR CPU meter please...?

Greetings!

I have a problem that I really need some help with.  I have built my own PC, an upgrade to my last custom build, and it's an i7 860/4GB RAM/2TB beast :)  I'm running Windows 7 32 bit as well.

I have already been reading up all on things related to core parking and such; I believe that is all taken care of.  I took care of everything in the BIOS and all seems well, for the most part.

Basically, my problem is...I spent all this money on a new PC and I'm still getting clicks/pop/dropouts in SONAR running certain soft synths.  Yes, I know that they are CPU intensive, but my actual All_CPU gadget shows literally 3-5% load when SONAR is showing up to 55% at times!  How can I balance this out?  The point of getting this new PC was to finally get to use synths I wanted :(

Now, I managed to get dropouts gone for the most part, but often times as I said, my actual i7 CPU is at 4% and SONAR is at 45%.  I get massive clicks/pops at 45% CPU in SONAR, but yet my CPU itself is laughing and barely breaking a sweat.

At first I thought it was a synth-problem, such as poor coding or whatever - it happens, I know.  But 4 or 5 synths now have this problem, and I have no idea what is going on.  I've test Rhino2, Largo, polyKB, and even Zebra2. 

I know that my sound card works fine as well, I'm using the AP192 which works flawlessly on all applications.  I've played with the buffers on the settings as well, maxxing it out to like 4096 samples!  Still....at 40-50% CPU in SONAR, major cracks and pops.

Can someone tell me why my actual i7 is barely working at ALL (4-5%) load, but in SONAR it's about to crumble running just one of those soft synths? :( Please tell me what I can do to make my SONAR CPU low like my i7 CPU.  It's very frustrating.

In Reaper 3, the CPU for all the synths I mentioned stay at around 4-6% CPU (in DAW)....which basically matches my actual i7 CPU readout, although I know they are technically measuring "different" types of CPU, so to speak....but still.  In Reaper, I actually load one instance of each of the synths above (combined), and the CPU total was about 10%.  That same combination of synths/polyphony brought SONAR up to 67% CPU.  What's going on here?  Am I missing a setting?  Surely this can't be only me...If you would like screenshots, let me know...if its easier to help.

Why does SONAR have a 30-40% increase of CPU per synth, in this case?  And, of course, I prefer to work in SONAR because that's what I've been using for years now...but, this is very concerning.  Can someone tell me how I can get SONAR to respond more efficiently to CPU/soft synth usage?  Thanks :)

Thank you so much everyone....

The below may be of some help. It is from Noel.

Improved Multi-Core load balancing

SONAR has supported scalable load balancing for multi-core computers since SONAR 3. In 8.3 we spent some time researching different techniques to improve our task scheduler (the internal component that distributes the project workload across multiple threads). The new scheduler mechanism allows for a more even load across all cores on a multi-core system. Not only that but the new mechanism consumes less CPU and is more power efficient. We haven't measured this yet but it should actually consume less battery resources on a notebook than SONAR 8.0.2! SONAR goes environment friendly :-)

Since all systems are not made equal we decided to make this new scheduling mode configurable 
From the help file, the new aud.ini option to control this is:

ThreadSchedulingModel=<0 - 2>
Type Integer
Default 1

This variable goes in the [Wave] section and controls the interaction of the main audio thread and worker threads on multiprocessor systems when the Use Multiprocessing Engine option is enabled. Depending on the system, a particular model may result in less glitching and better overall performance. The values are as follows:
0 = Same as previous versions of SONAR.
1 = (default) Better thread balance. Model is more efficient and can provide cycles for other tasks.
2 = Additional worker thread is created. This may result in improvement with Quad processor systems or higher. Not recommended for Dual processor systems.

Thanks for your reply...



This is Absynth + polyKB combined polyphony 32 voices...pedal left down,me just pounding on the keys randomly to build voices....in Reaper.
No FX.

SONAR should have a more comprehensive performance meter, imo.



This is just ONE of those synths in SONAR 8.5.3.

Clearly, SONAR has the issue.  Which is fine, I just want to know how to fix it :)
(Because I really love SONAR - it's the most powerful DAW I've ever used for MIDI manipulation and VST FX). 

I tried fixing the AUD file for both CPU meter/dropouts and threading...

Anything else you think maybe would work?  :\
I can't be the only person who has CPU problems in SONAR...in this fashion....I'm not that special ;p

Thanks again for your help!

It does have a good CPU meter by using the large transport F4.

Can someone tell me why my actual i7 is barely working at ALL (4-5%) load, but in SONAR it's about to crumble running just one of those soft synths? :( Please tell me what I can do to make my SONAR CPU low like my i7 CPU.

Sonar's CPU meter measures the time it takes for it to process an audio buffer relative to the length of time of that buffer. So if the buffer represents 4ms of time, and Sonar takes 4 ms to process that buffer then its CPU meter will show 100%. It's a more useful measurement than raw CPU usage (which is what those other CPU meters show) since if it takes longer to process a buffer than the amount of audio that the buffer represents then you'll get a dropout.

So the real question is what is holding up your processing? Run the DPC latency checker and find out how long your computer is taking when just taking care of business. If the DPC latency checker is spiking then you've got more hardware and driver issues to sort out.

I know about the F4 bar, but I just feel like the Reaper performance meter is more useful and comprehensive....

Just my take.

I've run the DPC several times - absolutely no red flags.  That's what makes me so frustrated.

I promise me - I wouldn't have posted here unless I was ripping my hair out :( I've done everything I thought possible.  How in the world can it be that Reaper has that much over CPU in regards to CPU....

I don't want to leave SONAR...honestly, but I feel this needs to be addressed.  The proof is in the pudding.  I've been with SONAR since v4.

But:
Same PC, same VSTi and FX.  Same applications running in background.  Same MIDI chords played on a track = Reaper CPU 6% SONAR 60%.  It's crippling my workflow as a composer....I'm sure it's a setting but I don't know if it's a user setting or in the coding....

Tarsier:
What would you suggest if the DPC comes back without spikes?

Thanks!

I hope you get the situation solved. It seems to be quite common, that SONAR requires a little "personal tweaking" in situations when many other DAWs run smoothly. The price of power? I don't know.

I just wanted to make a remark concerning you new PC. You would have been better off, performance- and back up-wise, with two or three smaller HDDs than one gigantic one. It's always recommended to have your OS and programs on one disc, and projects, audio libraries etc. on another.

I think its important to know how the Reaper meter works to make any comparison. As Tasier says we know how the Sonar CPU meter works. I don't have any idea how the Reaper meter works. 

So in other words, it's better to have your OS on lets say your internal HDD, and then have your DAW, projects, and audio files on an external HDD?
 
Mix Master

Can you provide some more technical details on your drivers and settings?
Are you using the latest M-Audio drivers (or a beta driver)?  Are you using ASIO or something else - and what are your buffer settings, etc.?

I think you should compare the CPU activity in Task Manager. Then you'd get figures you can compare. As Tarsier clearly explained, if Reaper is showing the total CPU activity and Sonar the "relative buffer-run" speed, the comparison is worthless.

So in other words, it's better to have your OS on lets say your internal HDD, and then have your DAW, projects, and audio files on an external HDD?

Most Sonar users here do just that and put samples on a third drive.

Kalle Rantaaho


I hope you get the situation solved. It seems to be quite common, that SONAR requires a little "personal tweaking" in situations when many other DAWs run smoothly. The price of power? I don't know.

I just wanted to make a remark concerning you new PC. You would have been better off, performance- and back up-wise, with two or three smaller HDDs than one gigantic one. It's always recommended to have your OS and programs on one disc, and projects, audio libraries etc. on another.

I was not clear in my post - apologies.  I have two 1TB drives.  One is separate for audio files/projects.  The other HD is for my OS and backup partitions, etc.

I am using the latest AP192 drives yes, Win7 beta (but that's the only choice).  It's rock solid on Sibelius, Sound Forge, etc. - It's been fine up until SONAR 8.5.3.

I've played around with all buffer settings....tried everything I could think of.

Thanks everyone!

Kalle Rantaaho


I think you should compare the CPU activity in Task Manager. Then you'd get figures you can compare. As Tarsier clearly explained, if Reaper is showing the total CPU activity and Sonar the "relative buffer-run" speed, the comparison is worthless.

True, but I concede:

Let's say it is worthless to compare.  The proof still exists that this problem is only occurring in SONAR 8.5.3 - and nowhere else.

There are zero artifacts in Reaper, no glitching or anything.  So, even if Reaper 3 said 80% CPU for my 2 synths....still, I wouldn't "care" - per say, because I'm not experiencing any glitches....

Hopefully I can figure this out ;\

Thanks for your help and patience everyone...you're a lifesaver....

Mix Master


So in other words, it's better to have your OS on lets say your internal HDD, and then have your DAW, projects, and audio files on an external HDD?
 
Mix Master

No, it doesn't need to be external, but a separate HDD. They can all be internal (which is recommendable). Programs should be on the same HD as the OS, AFAIK. Installing can get tricky, if you want to spread them around. There are so many things the installers do as default.

Kalle Rantaaho

Mix Master


So in other words, it's better to have your OS on lets say your internal HDD, and then have your DAW, projects, and audio files on an external HDD?
 
Mix Master

No, it doesn't need to be external, but a separate HDD. They can all be internal (which is recommendable). Programs should be on the same HD as the OS, AFAIK. Installing can get tricky, if you want to spread them around. There are so many things the installers do as default.

Well the reason that I referenced an external HDD is because I am using a laptop to run Sonar. 

benjamincharles

Kalle Rantaaho


I think you should compare the CPU activity in Task Manager. Then you'd get figures you can compare. As Tarsier clearly explained, if Reaper is showing the total CPU activity and Sonar the "relative buffer-run" speed, the comparison is worthless.

True, but I concede:

Let's say it is worthless to compare.  The proof still exists that this problem is only occurring in SONAR 8.5.3 - and nowhere else.

There are zero artifacts in Reaper, no glitching or anything.  So, even if Reaper 3 said 80% CPU for my 2 synths....still, I wouldn't "care" - per say, because I'm not experiencing any glitches....

Hopefully I can figure this out ;\

Thanks for your help and patience everyone...you're a lifesaver....

I agree, but being able to compare the actual CPU activity would help us to decide whether this has got anything to do with CPU. It's not at all clear that CPU has got something to do with this problem.
 
I do think, though, that the CPU readings you get in SONAR seem to be strangely high. You didn't mention which buffers you have been tweaking.
The way the Sonar CPU meter works could mean the high figures are due to some buffers, latency settings or something like that anyway.

Hmm...well, I have been a SONAR user for several versions now, and proud to say that I 'thought' I was a power user by now ;)

I am a working composer for film/stage, and this sorta thing really came outta the blue with SONAR 8.5 - then I saw threads on the i7, threading, CPU, etc.

And now here I am.

I changed/tested as much as I could in the AUD.ini file, I've tweaked BIOS plenty, I've played with my sound card buffers/sample, CPU's cache (long shot), etc.

Perhaps I missed something, but I don't think so.  I believe it's either:
A) Out of my control and is indeed an issue with SONAR itself in general
or
B) Some combination of settings in SONAR that I don't know of...

Perhaps I am wrong about what the reaper CPU/performance meter indicates.  Perhaps not though.  All I know is I can run 2 instances of Absynth5, 1 Rhino, and 1 Largo in Reaper and have 12% CPU...no glitching, at 256 samples with my sound card.

SONAR actually locks up briefly and glitches with just Absynth and Rhino - total polyphony = 32 voices for both DAWs.

:\  Thanks guys...I appreciate the help...but I'm really pulling my hair out here.

What settings would you adjust if you were me, and in what order of trial and error?

I just rewatched my Groove3 Tutorial Videos on Reaper's CPU/Performance meter....I believe I am interpreting everything correctly, fwiw....but I'm not 100%

I just erased the registry files for core parking in regedit and went into aud .ini. and set the thread model to 2, now i get no spiking when i re-wire reasn , all my core balance nice, try that benjamincharles

My parameter is at 2 in the .ini file....I've tried the default as well....

I never get spiking with ReWire, but I'm glad it is working for you :)

I still can't figure this out.  SONAR has got to be adjusted to be more CPU efficient...overall, though I still love the DAW.

But if I can run literally 3x the amount of soft synths in Reaper than in SONAR, that should mean something.  Either I'm missing a setting, or SONAR itself lacks the setting...

Perhaps SONAR 9 will be more CPU efficient?

I'm using an i7-960, and noticed this as well. running sonar 64bit.

tried changing the ini file.. but can't seem to make the changes stick. always defaults back to 1.

anyway.. with everything at default, sonar idles at around 30% on my system, with 5 to 10 vst's loaded up.

playing stacks of stuff pushes sonars cpu indicator to around 50 to 60%.. which seems to be about maximum. I rarely see it spike beyond that, no matter how much more I throw at it.

I get a few crackles once in a while, but no dropouts.. nothing as severe as you're experiencing.

again, this is a pretty stock sonar install. just tweaked a few things in audio/asio options and added a couple midi devices.

Yea...I wish mine was 'just' that....

The Reaper CPU is really looking to be the 'same' CPU concept as SONAR....the Reaper Performance meter never has aligned with my All-CPU i7 gadget usage meter....they are not one in the same, almost positive on it.

I hope SONAR can tweak this soon :(  For us heavy MIDI/VSTi users...it's a dealbreaker....

Get this:

Rhino2 Vsti - one instance in Reaper3 - 32 voice polyphony - pedal down, random blur of huge chords....etc.
CPU = 5%

Rhino2 Vsti - one instance in SONAR - 32 voice polyphony - pedal down, random blur of huge chords....etc.
CPU = 65%

Absolutely not cool.  I did this test on the "Harp Strings" preset, for those following along.  I also did these tests on the other synths as well...even Rapture....I tested 15 synths....from all different companies.....ugh...

It is a SONAR issue.....
But what setting can fix it, if it can be fixed at all?  If it can't, this is seriously a concern of mine.  This is honestly the one and only complaint I have ever had with SONAR.

progtronic when you save the aud ini reload the config and it will come up 2

Chregg


progtronic when you save the aud ini reload the config and it will come up 2

yep. that worked. 

ty.  

tarsier

 So the real question is what is holding up your processing? 
 
 
 
 
 

Nothing is holding his processing- he said his CPU is running at 3-5%. The question is what is holding SONAR from utilizing CPU power that the user paid for!

Indeed.  I can confirm now that all "problem" soft synths in SONAR work 1000% flawlessly in Reaper3.

NI Massive - max polyphony, Rhino2, Rapture, even StylusRMX....all peak at around 8% in Reaper combined.

In SONAR, just Massive alone spikes at 60% CPU :(

I still feel it's necessary to repeat that the CPU readings should be taken from Task Manager, not from the DAW in question.

"Rhino2 Vsti - one instance in Reaper3 - 32 voice polyphony - pedal down, random blur of huge chords....etc.
CPU = 5%

Rhino2 Vsti - one instance in SONAR - 32 voice polyphony - pedal down, random blur of huge chords....etc.
CPU = 65%"

That's useless info if the readings are results of two totally diffrent ways of defining the CPU usage (referring to post # 5 by Tarsier).

If the DAWs define the CPU readings differently, those comparisons don't tell you anything, but may be misleading instead. If the figures are similar in Task Manager, then you're on the track of something.

The answer surely lies inside Sonar, as you keep saying, but IMO as long as the CPU readings are not comparable, we don't know if the CPU-usage is the only culprit.

I'm only an occasional Sonar user. I believe you have much more DAW experience and knowledge than I have, but still...

I believe the point is that the Sonar is not functioning to the performance of other audio software.  So simply this CPU usage and meter debate is worthless...... who cares what it reads if it doesn't work.... and another option does.

3 questions....

1. Do you have driver sharing selected under Options-Project (I think... Sonar is at home I use Pro Tools/Sound Forge at work)

2. What is your "audio" buffer set at (MIDI still has to trigger the samples that are audio) sometimes if the buffer is too much MIDI drops out, too little it won't process it all in time and you won't hear some notes, or anything if too bad.

3. What happens if you switch Sonar from 64 bit engine to 32?

Kalle Rantaaho
I still feel it's necessary to repeat that the CPU readings should be taken from Task Manager, not from the DAW in question.

"Rhino2 Vsti - one instance in Reaper3 - 32 voice polyphony - pedal down, random blur of huge chords....etc.
CPU = 5%

Rhino2 Vsti - one instance in SONAR - 32 voice polyphony - pedal down, random blur of huge chords....etc.
CPU = 65%"

That's useless info if the readings are results of two totally diffrent ways of defining the CPU usage (referring to post # 5 by Tarsier).

If the DAWs define the CPU readings differently, those comparisons don't tell you anything, but may be misleading instead. If the figures are similar in Task Manager, then you're on the track of something.

The answer surely lies inside Sonar, as you keep saying, but IMO as long as the CPU readings are not comparable, we don't know if the CPU-usage is the only culprit.

I'm only an occasional Sonar user. I believe you have much more DAW experience and knowledge than I have, but still...

---

Hi there...

I already mentioned that above in my previous posts.  My All_CPU gadget meter is directly tied to the Task Manager.  I've monitored both - they are almost identical.  So, hope that clears that up for you.  My "Task Manager" CPU that you are asking about never peaks high - ever.  It barely moves.  That's the constant.  My i7 is working flawlessly, with all applications - audio or otherwise.

I believe I am on track with something.

-----

Jason:
1) I have tried both selected/un-selected.  Similiar-near identical results.
2) I have tried all the buffer choices on both my AP192 PCI sound card (up to it's max 4096 samples/buffer) - all for audio - I even also tried adjusting my SONAR Playback/Record I/O buffers from anywhere between: 256-4096 as well.  Nothing is changing anything to do with CPU, sadly.  Trust me....I've tried that :(
3) Nothing.  Both are equally as unstable and glitchy.

What would you do, if you were me? :(

(Sorry I had to bold my response, I couldnt figure out how to separate my response from the quote italics....??)

Jason:
1) I have tried both selected/un-selected.  Similiar-near identical results.
2) I have tried all the buffer choices on both my AP192 PCI sound card (up to it's max 4096 samples/buffer) - all for audio - I even also tried adjusting my SONAR Playback/Record I/O buffers from anywhere between: 256-4096 as well.  Nothing is changing anything to do with CPU, sadly.  Trust me....I've tried that :(
3) Nothing.  Both are equally as unstable and glitchy.

What would you do, if you were me? :(


Good question....

Good Luck with it though.

Can you post screen shots of your Options - Audio information  Show all 3 tabs(general, advanced etc) plus the shot  when you hit the Asio panel button.
Maybe someone can spot something that is checked or unchecked that may be causing the problems.

----

Please keep in mind - I have tried many many combinations - so, this just happens to be what I last left it on after all my testing....

It has to be SONAR, which is fine - I'm not looking to bash the app, I'm just saying - this is a serious problem for MIDI/VSTi based composers, imo.  5 CPU hungry synths in Reaper barely peak 15% CPU (DAW readout) but in SONAR - 1 of those synths peaks at 20-30% - even at the highest buffer/latency allowed by my PCI card (4096). That, obviously, is a problem ;)
Keep in mind - the actual i7 CPU itself for both of these DAW tests was around 8-12%, average.  With all max polyphony per synth. 

I really appreciate all the help, but I am starting to think I just have to wait for SONAR 9...maybe it's fixed there? :(

I have tried changing every "power hungry" type setting, combination, etc - you name it.  It seems to boil down to just SONAR engine-related issues.....unless I'm completely off....after all these years, hehe....

Sorry double post. 

6 soft synths, dual Xeon i7 workstation, SONAR goes down in flames



16 core workstation idling at 7%, SONAR goes down in flames




Cakewalk points fingers at soundcard, soundcard folks point fingers at Cakewalk. 

:( I wish I knew more about coding/engine stuff...but like I've said, all I know is the proof is in the pudding:
My PC i7 build is more than enough to run at least a dozen "CPU hungry" synths, plus convo reverb, you name it, etc.

Yet, it spikes with just 1 or 2 synths....

And, even though I've only used Reaper for a few weeks, the only thing I truly "love" about it is the fact that I can literally use as many synths as I want - and it barely hits 25% max.  That's impressive, imo.

I want to remain loyal to SONAR, because it is the most powerful DAW/MIDI tool I've ever used as a working composer.  But this CPU problem needs to be looked at again.  If Reaper can do it...

I waited to post here until after I tried every conceivable combination of CPU/engine/buffer settings I could think of..and still, SONAR cripples so easily....

:(

Any more suggestions?
Thanks guys...I appreciate it...

Also, keep in mind - the poster above me is @ 96khz,.....I'm still working at 44/24 and this happens to me...oy....

The few things I have different probably won't make much difference.  I use the Trigger Freewheel setting and have the Share Drivers and Open all devices checked.
Suggestions -  Increase your Playback buffers to 512 Under advanced tab.
                        You don't have your M-Audio checked as an Input driver. That should likely be checked.

Also are you Video drivers up to date and functioning correctly.  I recently ran into problems(resulting from a windows update malfunction) that had my system just using the onboard VGA video drivers that caused a problem with Audio output as Video had to be processed by the main CPU instead of the Video processor.

I don't need the inputs checked at this time, per say, because I am not using my analog inputs.  But yes, I agree with you - and usually, I do have them selected.  But since the past few projects of mine are pure VSTi based, I didn't bother with them...

Yes, my ATI Catalyst GPU/drivers are all current.  And I've maxxed out my buffers well past 512 too....didnt make any difference, sad to say.

Thanks for the help everyone, hope this can get fixed so everyone can be happy :)

increase you play back buffers, try 512 and upwards

But what is the point in having a fire breathing dragon of a computer that wont run under 512?
I have a 6 core AMD with the fastest hard disk I could find  and 4gb of reasonable ram.  It too doesnt like running under 256 with sonar8.5.3  but will run 64 under reaper2.5.8(!) with no problems.

I had assumed (relatively new rig and very little studio time at present) that it was a meatware error on my part.
Hope I am right!  I only had Proteus VX, B4II, Kontakt and Superior Drummer running at the time....

increasing the buffer didn't help. still seeing a really high idle & play load on sonars cpu% indicator. 

sonar's reporting roughly twice the cpu usage than the task managers performance tab reading. both idle and playing. 

still not getting any work-flow issues due to the high cpu hits though, other than the occasional crackle. and that generally only happens when I have one of the vst instrument windows open.. and I'm editing or playing something live on it, while the tracks are playing. 

so, in my case.. it seems like the math for calculating actual cpu performance is just way off in sonar, compared to the task managers. 

seeing something a bit odd with the cpu cores that are being used during idle and playback. all the odd numbered cores (1, 3, 5 & 7) are fully working with only an occasional, tiny (1 or 2%) hit in even numbered cores. not sure if that means anything.. maybe that's typical. 

just tested with a benchmarking app to make sure my cpu wasn't fried.. all cores fired up, to full, ok.

*edit*

ahh.. task manager is showing those cores as "parked". I didn't really set that up.. so I don't know why they are. time to google some answers.. lol

Double Post

Chregg     
increase you play back buffers, try 512 and upwards     
---------------

I mentioned in this thread that I've already tried that....many different multiples, etc - among many other tweaks, etc. -  sadly, it did not help in any way.        

Progtronic:     

Core parking perhaps could be an issue for you, but I've already fixed my cores here and still...no luck :(  I hope SONAR can work this out, as I've said before I love Cakewalk....big fan for years....the only thing I like about Reaper is the fact that I can load 3 to 4 times as many synths as I can in SONAR.....      All while my actual CPU/i7/cores are working flawlessly and barely hitting 15% combined.       

I hope SONAR can work this out, as I've said before I love Cakewalk....big fan for years....the only thing I like about Reaper is the fact that I can load 3 to 4 times as many synths as I can in SONAR.....

We do know that Sonar is quite capable of heavy load, low latency processing. So the question remains why your system can't. At this point I would probably strip everything down and start over. I have had systems that I tweaked to death, and wiping the hard drive and starting over sorted things out nicely.

For the computer bios, have you disabled the HPET, and the various power saving and CPU throttling options? (sorry if you already let us know that you've done this...) Disable unnecessary devices, remove unnecessary cards that aren't needed for audio--even if you might need them later, disable/take them out for now. Wipe your hard drive (back-up important stuff, registrations, serial numbers, all that. A disk image is best so you can restore it if need be) and install windows and the drivers to get your chipset and soundcard up and running. Install Sonar. Don't tweak anything. Any improvement?

Indeed I have done a clean install and a full systems diagnostic re-tweak.  I assure you, I'm quite certain it is indeed out of my hands.  I even did a Paragon backup/restore - nothing.  Though, if you don't mind please:  could you tell me every parameter (to the best of your knowledge, if this was your problem) in the AUD INI that could possibly affect CPU meter/spikes/efficiency?  Maybe I missed one...?

I know quite a bit about computers, but what I lack is the knowhow about coding/engine/proprietary stuff.  For example, I don't know why but as I said before, Reaper can handle literally 3-4x the load of CPU hungry synths as SONAR 8.5.3 - simply put, that's a killer for me.  Now, before I posted here - I tried everything to possibly "level out" SONAR to match either Reaper or at least just drop down 25% - that would make a huge difference.  But as a MIDI-heavy composer, this is crippling me.

It's almost like the more powerful/advanced/multi-thread a CPU is, the more inefficient SONAR 8.5.3 is at handling the load/synths/fx - I mean, it's hard for me to understand that.  My PC is plenty powerful, and yet it seems that in SONAR I am losing tons of CPU.  I have been talking to my friends online and in person out here in Boston - many have similiar situations:  top of the line PC, quad i7 or older quad Intel - synths cripple SONAR after just a few voices of polyphony/instances.  I can't figure out how 5 instances of say, Absynth5 - custom patch - can peak at 18% CPU in Reaper, but 1 Absynth alone in SONAR 8.5.3 (high # voices) can almost freeze up everything....I wish I knew more in that respect, about coding/engine builds etc.  Now, if across the board my PC couldn't handle it (i.e. all DAWs/editors were crippled by the CPU usage, that's a whole different story...)
But I tried MiniHost and Reaper3 - flawless.  SONAR 8.5.3 - lockdown and frozen.

I had better CPU back on my dual core/2GB RAM machine.  That's why I believe it is indeed the way SONAR itself handles either i7's, or quads, or something.  It's almost as if it can't "see" CPU's the way other DAWs can - and that lack of efficiency is just clipping me.

In the AUD ini file, can you give me a list of possible parameters that may help this?  I have tried what I believe to be all of the ones that would matter, but I may have missed one -

I hope the Cakewalk folks stumble upon this thread or at least are working on the SONAR kinks - because this has happened on a smaller scale to me as well - on my laptop on 8.0 - not an i7, but a quad (core 2)....

For now, I am forced to track my soft synths in Reaper (if I want to use the "CPU hungry" ones) - and it's barely breaking a sweat in my DAW or my i7 itself (CPU gadget) -

If you don't mind though, could you try and list for me every parameter (to the best of your knowledge, if this was your problem) in the AUD INI that could possibly affect CPU meter/spikes/efficiency?  Maybe I missed one...?  It seems like it would be a simple fix, because SONAR is damn powerful and I have no intention of leaving it - ever.  But I certainly hit a roadblock :(

Thanks for your help everyone -

Now that I see you are using M-Audio Drivers I would start there....

I have had problems with M-Audio drivers conflicting with other drivers(like the ones you get with windows) causing many issues including audio dropp-out and even no playback.... even when you have selected drive sharing it can still have issues.

The other thing to watch out for is that the uninstallers do not remove everything... so if you uninstall you hardware driver, go into the program files where it was stored and delete any remaining contents... then reboot and install drivers again, reboot and see what happens....

M-audio drivers have been issues when I have designed live sound systems with Yamaha PM5D's and tried to connect with the console via laptop.. the M-Audio drivers had to be removed before we could connect to the desks...... or it just wouldn't work.

Other than that your guess is as good as mine at this point.

Good Luck

Well, driver stability indeed is critical, agreed.  That's why I bought the UA101 a ways back, but it's at my other studio ;)

The AP192 that I am using now is rock solid, regardless of how M-Audio is viewed by many or their history of problems/errors (which I've never had myself).  My card works flawlessly in:
Sound Forge
Vegas
Sibelius
Reaper
Finale
Windows Applications
Skype
Camtasia
Reason
...and everything else.

And, don't get me wrong - other than this CPU/inefficiency - there is absolutely nothing wrong with my M Audio/SONAR experience.  So, that's why I'm very hesitant to blame my sound card drivers or similar.  So, in theory, Reaper just happens to be "better" at handling M Audio drivers vs. SONAR?  I guess it's possible, yes - but I wouldn't put money on that personally...

I know many people in the past have had issues with M Audio, and I only have experience with this one PCI card - and it's been flawless on Windows 7 32 all around, audio apps or other.

And about the uninstaller - I agree - you gotta make sure you get all remnants - which I've done...and I even did an image backup as well.

Which leads me to SONAR being somehow unable to handle either i7's or quads or newer multithreaded CPUs, or something...because 75% of "modern" (i.e. CPU hungry) synths just flat out crumble SONAR and cripple it to its knees.  Reaper and MiniHost (just to name two) simply handle it perfectly, up to 3-4x the amount of soft synths SONAR can handle at one project.  Absolutely no hiccups or even CPU spikes of any kind.  I'm running out of tests before I just give up.... :\

Thanks man, I appreciate it... :)

What parameters in the AUD INI file would you suggest I tweak?  Just like, a master list of possibilities?....I'll see if maybe I missed one....?  That's all I can think of after all this...

Just tried another one:

NI Massive (newest build)

Magic Jungle Preset (64 voice polyphony)
All voices maxxed out/64 in Reaper 3 = 4.8% CPU usage (DAW meter not actual Task Manager CPU)

Magic Jungle Preset (64 voice polyphony)
All voices maxxed out/64 in SONAR 8.5.3 = 44-58% CPU usage (DAW meter not actual Task Manager CPU)

I can go on and on with over a dozen synths...probably more.  I spent my hard earned money (instead of paying student loans lol) on a new PC and many new synths for my TV projects....and I can't even use them in SONAR unless I freeze one by one, and forget layering anything - unless I'm using maybe Dreamstation or Pentagon - those seem to run fine w/ CPU...

My PC is well above the specs needed to run multiple instances of these 'types' of high- caliber CPU heavy synths.  Sadly, SONAR seems to not like me for doing so :(   Temp fix, use Reaper (although I prefer MIDI editing in SONAR) - but, I am very frustrated.  I've heard other stories of similar issues, from my peers and online - all happen to be either quad cores or higher/newer. 

To those who know much more than me about coding/engine stuff:  what would make one DAW (SONAR) absolutely inefficient with almost all CPU hungry synths - and yet other DAWs barely hiccup when you add 12 instances of the most CPU intensive synths out there?  Doesn't even break a sweat.

Remember, my task manager/i7 CPU itself never ever spikes - even with SONAR.  That's always constant around a whopping 8-15% with 12+ synths running high polyphony.  It's just SONAR and how it 'sees' the synths/CPU load....

Thanks for any tips, much appreciated.

Just curious... have you tried running the WDM drivers instead of the ASIO drivers?
 
(I loved my Delta 66 but I sometimes found I had to switch driver types depending on what software revs of different products I was running.  I'm not bashing M-Audio, I think they make some good stuff - I migrated to their Fast Track Pro when I went Win7 64bit.  But, I have had problems here and there through the years. )
 
Also, please clarify - do you see this same issue using only the built-in Sonar synths - or does this only happen when you use other vendor VSTi's?

It happens no matter what company puts the synth out - the only compromise though is only "CPU intensive" synths seem to have the problem.  I'll explain in a moment.  Here, I made a brief video showing my issue.  (see below please)

Now remember, I don't have an issue "seeing" the CPU be so dang high in SONAR - as long as I don't have any performance issues/cracks/freezes at my polyphony settings - I don't care if it says 78% all the time :)
But, all I know is - something is wrong within SONAR, and no other host I've tried.  In this video, I had massive (no pun intended) cracks and pops and ultimately had to close the app and pause my video to close it correctly and open Reaper 3.

It seems that SONAR is reporting the CPU per synth, correctly - but it's using that so inefficiently that it's causing the DAW itself to crash.  You'll see in my video, using NI Massive - that the synth itself produces heavy CPU - around 40-50% when you use 64voices - I'm ok with that, It's a high quality synth - and that 40-50% is a little above what SONAR CPU shows more or less (which locked up by the way, once I tried to stop it from hanging).  In Reaper, the GUI of Massive shows the 50% internally for the synth, but the DAW CPU meter itself is a fraction of that.  I have zero clicks and pops and dropouts in Reaper 3 - same exact setup.  The video should help.

Please forgive the haste in making it, I'm in between jobs today and only have an hour for lunch.  It may be choppy at times but I had to rush it, I will have more time later tonight if I need to redo it...thanks for watching and try to help.  It's about 1 minute long.

Please....if there is anything you suggest, let me know :(  I have so many examples of how SONAR does this, it doesn't matter what vendor...it just can't be any other small thing I'm missing.  It may be a small tweak, but it's absolutely SONAR at this point. 

Cakewalk synths that lock up at times are just Rapture/DimPro - but I can use many more instances of those - those are "best" case synths, as a compromise in CPU usage here.  I would have to use like 20 Raptures to get CPU at 50% lol -

Video link/Video download (5MB) MOV file:  http://www.mediafire.com/?pupa2vqtw721ybk


Thanks everyone....I really do appreciate the help.  I'm so close to giving up :(

benjamincharles

Core parking perhaps could be an issue for you, but I've already fixed my cores here and still...no luck :(  I hope SONAR can work this out, as I've said before I love Cakewalk....big fan for years....the only thing I like about Reaper is the fact that I can load 3 to 4 times as many synths as I can in SONAR.....      All while my actual CPU/i7/cores are working flawlessly and barely hitting 15% combined.       

yeah.. I enabled all cores, and it didn't help me either. I reverted and set everything back to a stock, 'Balanced' power plan.

still trying to re-create what you are experiencing. loaded up 10 synths (absynth x 5, massive x 3, fm8 x 2) , with the most cpu intensive, evolving pads I could find. played them all in a giant stack. it's actually less of a sonar cpu hit than the stacks of kontact (Electri6ity) instruments I was previously trying. 8% idle, 30(ish)% playing. and that's with 1/2 of the cores parked. 

still high by reaper standards.. but manageable. I tried out reaper myself for a couple weeks.. the midi record/looping/editing aspect was so bad, I had to bail on it. 

not really sure what to tell you.. maybe load up sonar on another machine and test it against your current pc.. to try to rule out another possibility.

wish I could be more helpful.

benjamincharles


Greetings!

I have a problem that I really need some help with.  I have built my own PC, an upgrade to my last custom build, and it's an i7 860/4GB RAM/2TB beast :)  I'm running Windows 7 32 bit as well.

I have already been reading up all on things related to core parking and such; I believe that is all taken care of.  I took care of everything in the BIOS and all seems well, for the most part.

Basically, my problem is...I spent all this money on a new PC and I'm still getting clicks/pop/dropouts in SONAR running certain soft synths.  Yes, I know that they are CPU intensive, but my actual All_CPU gadget shows literally 3-5% load when SONAR is showing up to 55% at times!  How can I balance this out?  The point of getting this new PC was to finally get to use synths I wanted :(

Now, I managed to get dropouts gone for the most part, but often times as I said, my actual i7 CPU is at 4% and SONAR is at 45%.  I get massive clicks/pops at 45% CPU in SONAR, but yet my CPU itself is laughing and barely breaking a sweat.

At first I thought it was a synth-problem, such as poor coding or whatever - it happens, I know.  But 4 or 5 synths now have this problem, and I have no idea what is going on.  I've test Rhino2, Largo, polyKB, and even Zebra2. 

I know that my sound card works fine as well, I'm using the AP192 which works flawlessly on all applications.  I've played with the buffers on the settings as well, maxxing it out to like 4096 samples!  Still....at 40-50% CPU in SONAR, major cracks and pops.

Can someone tell me why my actual i7 is barely working at ALL (4-5%) load, but in SONAR it's about to crumble running just one of those soft synths? :( Please tell me what I can do to make my SONAR CPU low like my i7 CPU.  It's very frustrating.

In Reaper 3, the CPU for all the synths I mentioned stay at around 4-6% CPU (in DAW)....which basically matches my actual i7 CPU readout, although I know they are technically measuring "different" types of CPU, so to speak....but still.  In Reaper, I actually load one instance of each of the synths above (combined), and the CPU total was about 10%.  That same combination of synths/polyphony brought SONAR up to 67% CPU.  What's going on here?  Am I missing a setting?  Surely this can't be only me...If you would like screenshots, let me know...if its easier to help.

Why does SONAR have a 30-40% increase of CPU per synth, in this case?  And, of course, I prefer to work in SONAR because that's what I've been using for years now...but, this is very concerning.  Can someone tell me how I can get SONAR to respond more efficiently to CPU/soft synth usage?  Thanks :)

Thank you so much everyone....

X64bit

You using wrong platform my friend. Upgrade to ----> Windows 7 x64.

You will be amazed of what a big the difference it actually is when you finally decide to upgrade to Windows 7 x64. Just change your OS to x64 is like you built a new computer again if you use exactly the same RIG and component. I will be about x3 up to 10 times faster then today--

Also this bug of your will disappear directly and probably many other problems you have today....


Best Regards
Freddie

progtronic

benjamincharles

Core parking perhaps could be an issue for you, but I've already fixed my cores here and still...no luck :(  I hope SONAR can work this out, as I've said before I love Cakewalk....big fan for years....the only thing I like about Reaper is the fact that I can load 3 to 4 times as many synths as I can in SONAR.....      All while my actual CPU/i7/cores are working flawlessly and barely hitting 15% combined.       

yeah.. I enabled all cores, and it didn't help me either. I reverted and set everything back to a stock, 'Balanced' power plan.

still trying to re-create what you are experiencing. loaded up 10 synths (absynth x 5, massive x 3, fm8 x 2) , with the most cpu intensive, evolving pads I could find. played them all in a giant stack. it's actually less of a sonar cpu hit than the stacks of kontact (Electri6ity) instruments I was previously trying. 8% idle, 30(ish)% playing. and that's with 1/2 of the cores parked. 

still high by reaper standards.. but manageable. I tried out reaper myself for a couple weeks.. the midi record/looping/editing aspect was so bad, I had to bail on it. 

not really sure what to tell you.. maybe load up sonar on another machine and test it against your current pc.. to try to rule out another possibility.

wish I could be more helpful.

Hi there real 1333mhzz memory stock or over clocked?

If you over-clock there is your problem... set it default speed in BIOS...


Regards
Freddie

Progtronic:

For the record, you are 64bit - I am 32bit....if that matters....hope you have no issues in the future ;)

Freddie:

I will go x64 eventually, yes.  There is absolutely no reason why x64 should affect this in particular - it's not like I'm streaming heavy PLAY instruments from RAM, etc.

I agree that x64 has SO much more to offer in RAM upgrades, load times, future proof, etc - but x86 machines in this case should NOT be crashing with one soft synth in a DAW - CPU heavy or not.  My PC has more than enough power to run what I'm trying to run.   I know you're very pro-x64 which is fine - but I really can't see that being the absolute problem why SONAR has CPU glitches and all other hosts do not.  It's night and day here.  6% vs. 50%?
Did you watch the video?  It's just a VSTi...one.

With respect, I am not using the wrong platform.  It's not black and white: some x86 users don't have my problem, and some x64 users do share my problem....it's much more than that.  It's related to the SONAR engine, it has to be the majority of the issue...how it handles CPU/synth loads...

It's a SONAR issue, to a high degree - more than anything else. 

Also, I do not OC any of my PCs.

I hope this thread can help others in my boat, with similar "CPU inefficiencies" in SONAR....

What parameters in the AUD INI file could help me?  Besides the thread and CPU meter ones...?
And yes, Freddie - I will be x64 soon ;) Promise! hehe....

Freddie H


Hi there real 1333mhzz memory stock or over clocked?

If you over-clock there is your problem... set it default speed in BIOS...

yes. it's non-over-clocked 1333mHz ram.. I'm using the default, 'automatic' asus bios setting.. so, I think it settled around 1200(ish). figured it knew better, than I ever would.. in terms of setting stuff like that up. so, I left it up to the bios to automatically set most everything up.

nothing over-clocked in this machine. over-clocking sorta seems overkill IMO. 

only thing I really tweaked in bios was the ssd's setup, to get the most out of the two sata III ports speed.. which now averages around 345(ish) mb/s read for each ssd.

I would never overclock a DAW, but that's just me...I'm like that.

I know Freddie you're trying to help - and I appreciate it ;)  But, having to buy a new OS x64 is not something I'm able to do at this time - there needs to be a better fix universally for all of us with more-or-less the "same" CPU/SONAR issue....it's more common than you may think....sadly.

I will go to x64 when my other applications are more stable with 64bit updates and drivers are more stable...the option to simply pack up shop and buy Win7 x64 is not on the table.  Nor should it really be, imo.  There is absolutely zero guarantee that x64 would fix this problem 100% - it's possible, but as I've said before - people from both OS camps have similar CPU problems, x86 and 64.   The only common factors from my personal research is SONAR 8 and SONAR 8.5 - x86 and x64 - running either quad core intels or i7 quads (or greater)....fwiw.

Prog:
I love ASUS :) My new motherboard is a BEAST!

I have so many examples of how SONAR does this, it doesn't matter what vendor...it just can't be any other small thing I'm missing. It may be a small tweak, but it's absolutely SONAR at this point.

Still... not necessarily a Sonar problem in and of itself. It could be that Sonar is triggering a problem on your system that other apps aren't.  And given that many of us are successfully using Sonar at low latencies with multiple instances of the the same synths that you are trying at least shows that it is possible.

Your video wasn't too helpful in that it didn't demonstrate the crackling/dropouts that you're describing. Or I didn't hear them. Is there a soundtrack in there?

Did you ever let us know what motherboard/CPU/RAM you're using? I did a quick skim back through the thread and didn't notice that info. How much RAM? Did you try removing sticks of ram and see if that changed anything?

As for aud.ini, the only time I've come across symptoms of crackling in small projects and the problem was due to aud.ini was when I was using WDM mode and changed my soundcard buffer without re-profiling. ASIO shouldn't have that problem.  Have you deleted aud.ini and let Sonar re-create it?

The other times when I've had crackles in small projects was due to some other device/driver in the computer that was misbehaving.

To be clear: did you uninstall Sonar, delete ALL of its folders in both programs and appdata, and delete ALL of its registry keys? Reboot, and reinstall Sonar?

Have you tried installing XP and the tried-and-true M-Audio version 5.10.00.0052 drivers? Just as a testcase?

tarsier

I have so many examples of how SONAR does this, it doesn't matter what vendor...it just can't be any other small thing I'm missing. It may be a small tweak, but it's absolutely SONAR at this point.

Still... not necessarily a Sonar problem in and of itself. It could be that Sonar is triggering a problem on your system that other apps aren't.  And given that many of us are successfully using Sonar at low latencies with multiple instances of the the same synths that you are trying at least shows that it is possible.

Your video wasn't too helpful in that it didn't demonstrate the crackling/dropouts that you're describing. Or I didn't hear them. Is there a soundtrack in there?

Did you ever let us know what motherboard/CPU/RAM you're using? I did a quick skim back through the thread and didn't notice that info. How much RAM? Did you try removing sticks of ram and see if that changed anything?

As for aud.ini, the only time I've come across symptoms of crackling in small projects and the problem was due to aud.ini was when I was using WDM mode and changed my soundcard buffer without re-profiling. ASIO shouldn't have that problem.  Have you deleted aud.ini and let Sonar re-create it?

The other times when I've had crackles in small projects was due to some other device/driver in the computer that was misbehaving.

To be clear: did you uninstall Sonar, delete ALL of its folders in both programs and appdata, and delete ALL of its registry keys? Reboot, and reinstall Sonar?

Have you tried installing XP and the tried-and-true M-Audio version 5.10.00.0052 drivers? Just as a testcase?

Agreed that it is not 100% proven yet to be SONAR.  It sure is looking like it's partially responsible though...I agree that it's probably trigger of some kind.

I have swapped out my 4GB RAM yes, into the inverted matching slots - nothing changed.  My motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...6813131621   My CPU: i7 860  My RAM:  http://www.newegg.com/Pro...x?Item=N82E16820145260
(I also tried: http://www.newegg.com/Pro...=N82E16820231311  )

Made no difference at all.

I tried my UA101 sound card (just grabbed it).  Same exact scenario - even at insanely high/buffer latency (4096+)...

If people have the synths I have, and have SONAR 8.5.3 x86 Win7 32 - and it's not doing this....it still could be many other factors, as you say.
Though, even if you ignore the visible CPU signs - Reaper still beats SONAR by having zero cracks/pop/freezes.  Even MiniHost is glitch free...

I reset the AUD file, yup.  I also uninstalled SONAR - reinstalled it.  Then did a complete OS wipe/restore from Paragon backup...
Same thing.

The fact now that I bring in my UA101 still proves (to me at least) that SONAR is at least 'primarily' responsible, trigger or not - seeing as how other DAWs work seamlessly and error-free with these CPU hungry synths. 

And no, I forgot to include audio on my video lol - I was in a rush earlier.  But, as I said, the CPU shows what I am talking about (even if Reaper CPU = task manager) - the point being that in SONAR, the visual CPU caused massive spikes/glitches/crackles - Reaper 5% CPU did not.  So, keeping that in mind  - I guess you just have to trust me ;)

I'm starting to feel like this can never be fixed :(

I have top of the line parts and gear - and I know a lot about computers - but this makes no sense...

As I said before, I don't mind if SONAR "shows" 80% CPU daily - as long as it performs without glitching - I'm fine with the high CPU displayed constantly :)

So, please help me grasp this if you would be so kind:
Reaper can load 5 instances of Massive (64 voices A PIECE)
and max out at 24% CPU (task manager or internal, whatever it shows) - point being = zero artifacts and glitches. Period.

SONAR loading one instance of Massive (64 voices) - CPU displays avg. 52% and audible clicks and pops and buffering errors.

Take SONAR out of my equation for a moment: everything on my PC is flawless.  Sound card, Sibelius, BIOS, Reaper, Windows apps, media players, net browsing sounds, etc - everything. Seriously...

Put my UA101 or my PCI 192 into SONAR under the situations I've discussed here in the thread - fail.

Put my UA101 or my PCI 192 into Reaper/MiniHost under the situations I've discussed here - not one error - even when I triple the load/instances of the synths I used in SONAR.

My brain is fried....oy! ;0

Thanks for the help :)

My situation certainly does not seem to be only me, I'm not special I know lol - but regardless of the % of people - surely that is curious, no?  I know it's not concrete, of course - but certain multithreaded/quad cores/i7s/newer CPU's...plus certain CPU hungry synths...all have similar issues...in SONAR..."similar" CPU issues...

Still, that would turn my head.

"Did you ever let us know what motherboard/CPU/RAM you're using? I did a quick skim back through the thread and didn't notice that info. How much RAM? Did you try removing sticks of ram and see if that changed anything?"

I wish I could help in troubleshooting this more efficiently but I have to say this requested information doesn't make a bit a difference..... He has stated many times that these synths work fine on his computer using other programs...

Sonar doesn't know the difference between one version of RAM over another... they have literally nothing to do with one another other than using it..... so we can look beyond the hardware at this stage in troubleshooting.

It is obviously a software/configuration problem based on all the tests and information already supplied in this thread.

I would try reinstalling as was mentioned above just to make sure they wasn't some sort of error that was not reported... but don't know how much good that will do...

Update:

Ok...I tried something here and I'm not sure what to make of it.
(It doesn't make sense per say, but I'll share it - because you guys have been AWESOME for trying to help me ;) Thanks!!!)

Ok, so I edited the AUD file again - changed the ThreadingModel (back to 1 - I had changed it to 2, for better performance, which did help quite a bit).

Once I set it back to 1, I rebooted, and restarted SONAR. Tested it.

Then I edited the AUD again, and changed it back to "2"  - which is suggested for quads, etc.
(2 = Additional worker thread is created. This may result in improvement with Quad processor systems or higher. Not recommended for Dual processor systems. )

And then another reboot.

Now, the CPU of course still visibly spikes that high (as SONAR always does because its CPU meter is not an actual CPU meter per say; It's more to do with audio buffers etc)

...but, the pops/clicks/crackles are gone up until I really push it hard now.

This is an improvement but 2 things concern me:

1) I didn't really do anything other than re-edit the AUD.ini file and reboot and reapply a parameter change ( = 1 to  = 2)
(which I had already done 3 times prior)

and

2) the pops/cracks are still there, though infrequent in my most recent tests a little while ago...

Odd, no?


I'll let you know what I find...tonight :)

Thanks again guys!