Elvenking
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Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
Well hell. The arse holes at M-Audio did not grace the 410 with balanced outputs. So I have the situation I am in now. Nice 60Hz humm from my monitors. Question is...what can I do. I have seen thos Unbalanced to Balanced converters. Do they rectify the situation well?
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Autist
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 06:36:55
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b3gsus@msn.com
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 06:57:29
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Question is...what can I do. I have seen thos Unbalanced to Balanced converters. Do they rectify the situation well? I believe they will if you get the real McCoy convertor adaptor but I'm sure you've seen the convertors all over ebay that are simply just a way to change from RCA to XLR... HTHs, Wildman
Wildman,,aka,,,"Nick Danger" Studiocat Core2Quad Q9550 w/P45 Cset XP-Pro Sonar Pro 8, 2 FF 800, Wclock, Avalon VT-737, Focusrite V Master,Eureka, 2-LA-4s, Neumann U87,TLM-103,Rode NTK,MCU,Event SP8s, DynAudio BM5As VS-2480 4 DA88 2-Mackie 24/8buss
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agincourtdb
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 07:30:45
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ORIGINAL: Elvenking
Well hell. The arse holes at M-Audio did not grace the 410 with balanced outputs. So I have the situation I am in now. Nice 60Hz humm from my monitors. Question is...what can I do. I have seen thos Unbalanced to Balanced converters. Do they rectify the situation well?
Get your mains cables away from any video monitors and power chords and that should minimize the hum. I've got the M-Audio FW1814 and while the mains are balanced the analog ins 1-8 are not. I did one gig where I recorded some hum on a number of tracks, unbeknowst to me. Why? the stage was surrounded by those stupid beer neon signs.
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b3gsus@msn.com
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 07:50:57
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Why? the stage was surrounded by those stupid beer neon signs. Absolutely one of those typical problem area's in a Live Situation! Good info Dave! Wildman 
Wildman,,aka,,,"Nick Danger" Studiocat Core2Quad Q9550 w/P45 Cset XP-Pro Sonar Pro 8, 2 FF 800, Wclock, Avalon VT-737, Focusrite V Master,Eureka, 2-LA-4s, Neumann U87,TLM-103,Rode NTK,MCU,Event SP8s, DynAudio BM5As VS-2480 4 DA88 2-Mackie 24/8buss
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 12:14:20
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I have not seen the converter that you speak of....and I have only found one such converter that appears to do what I want. http://www.apexelectronics.com/index.php?tmp=4&id=87 If anyone has any other options, it would be appreciated. Thanks. ORIGINAL: b3gsus@msn.com
Question is...what can I do. I have seen thos Unbalanced to Balanced converters. Do they rectify the situation well?
I believe they will if you get the real McCoy convertor adaptor but I'm sure you've seen the convertors all over ebay that are simply just a way to change from RCA to XLR... HTHs, Wildman
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 12:31:23
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SteveD
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 12:39:46
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Ebtech Hum Eliminator <link> is perfect for switching unbalanced to balanced connections. And it really does eliminate the hum if that is what's causing the problem.
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TheFingers 
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 12:47:09
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Are these monitors powered? If so, you might try just lifting the ground on the power feeds to the monitors.
1973 "A" neck. I'd rather be playing Bass:
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 12:50:24
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Indeed....the monitors are powered. They are the Event ASP8's. Exteremely sweet sounding, but the hearing the hum when things get quiet is enough to make you want to....to.....to....friggin scream and kick the family dog. LOL. (Ok....don't worry...I didn't do it).
I just want to solve this before tonight...one my only free nights to record and mix. I would be willing to stop by Home Depot for one of those...de-grounding plug converters to try what you say.
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 12:57:27
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Is the other proper name for these types of transformer isolation boxes.....Direct Box or DI Boxes? ORIGINAL: SteveD
Ebtech Hum Eliminator <link> is perfect for switching unbalanced to balanced connections. And it really does eliminate the hum if that is what's causing the problem.
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agincourtdb
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 13:02:22
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I would avoid lifting the ground if at all possible. There are ways to eliminate ground loops without exposing yourself and your equipment to that kind of risk  Keeping your audio equipment on a different circuit than any lights or other 'dirty' equipment (refrigerators, for example) is key.
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 13:08:30
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I really want to do all that I can. The situation is...I have two outputs on my Firewire 410 both are -10db unbalanced connections. The monitors I have have two balanced inputs, one TRS and one XLR. I am reading up about cable modification. I would appreciate any suggestions in the meantime. I am very handy with electronics as I used to work as an electronic technician. Although I have never had to deal with audio noise elimination. SO I am studying so that I may have clean sound.
Anyone know if those Transformer isolation boxes reshape the sound in any way. I bought these particular monitors so that I would have flat response. To comprimise that would be undesireable.
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jpkeys
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 13:30:26
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Elvenking, The solution is really quite simple. First, you start with the Voxengo Marquis Compressor. Now you see those three knobs on the lower left labeled Param 1, 2 and 3? Set them to exactly 1,5 4,76 and 10,0 and your hum will go away. Don't ask why, it just does.  Just kidding, of course. Clean power, proper polarity and elimination of ground loops are good places to look, especially when you're stuck with unbalanced lines. JP
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b3gsus@msn.com
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 13:51:03
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So you're using the -10db unbalanced outputs on the Firewire 410 into the TRS or the XLR balanced inputs on the SP8s? Have you tried a pair of Gold RCA to 1/4" adaptors??? Another thing is have you tried adjusting the distance from the 410 to the speakers?? have you tried using some those 3 pronged adaptors on the speaker cables & reversed those into the power strip or 110 outlet??? I would believe that you're probobly picking up some interference as Dave suggested being on the same circuit as a fridge any other type of light faders or the like??? I know you have some things to try & if you have a piece of say a rubber mat like the ones you can put together for kids to bounce around on the ground?? Just some idea's here Elvenking. I also have the 410 running off my laptop but it's feeding into a pair of BX8s. My SP8s are on my main Audio Computer coming from my FireFace 800.. I can tell you also that I had to work with the in/out gain settings on the FFace to eliminate the type of Buzz/hum/just plain any damn noise when you expect silence!!! I have the input setting on the FF on -10db & the output setting on the "Hi Gain" setting to get the quietest sound when not in playback... As mentioned by Steve, those units do indeed work for switching from unbalanced to balanced but as an immediate fix for the night to record, you might try the 3 prong adaptors and/or try running your power lines from the SP8s to a seperate circuit... If you don't have any I.D.s marking what each breaker is powering, you may have to get the wife/kid/dog or neighbor to work the Circuits with you to shutoff/on to I.D. what's going to what! Sorry this is so long but I know what it's like to have limited time to record & with those speakers.... I'd have to kick your dog too!!! HTHs a little! Wildman
Wildman,,aka,,,"Nick Danger" Studiocat Core2Quad Q9550 w/P45 Cset XP-Pro Sonar Pro 8, 2 FF 800, Wclock, Avalon VT-737, Focusrite V Master,Eureka, 2-LA-4s, Neumann U87,TLM-103,Rode NTK,MCU,Event SP8s, DynAudio BM5As VS-2480 4 DA88 2-Mackie 24/8buss
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 14:02:09
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Here is what I tried when I came home for lunch. I took a spare power cable that fits the monitors and brok off the grounding wire on it....used that to power up the monitor for a minute. Completely eliminates the noise alltogether. However...I don;t know if I like the idea of not grounding them. I have tried all outlets in my apartment...no dice on circuit elimination. ORIGINAL: b3gsus@msn.com
So you're using the -10db unbalanced outputs on the Firewire 410 into the TRS or the XLR balanced inputs on the SP8s? Have you tried a pair of Gold RCA to 1/4" adaptors??? Another thing is have you tried adjusting the distance from the 410 to the speakers?? have you tried using some those 3 pronged adaptors on the speaker cables & reversed those into the power strip or 110 outlet??? I would believe that you're probobly picking up some interference as Dave suggested being on the same circuit as a fridge any other type of light faders or the like??? I know you have some things to try & if you have a piece of say a rubber mat like the ones you can put together for kids to bounce around on the ground?? Just some idea's here Elvenking. I also have the 410 running off my laptop but it's feeding into a pair of BX8s. My SP8s are on my main Audio Computer coming from my FireFace 800.. I can tell you also that I had to work with the in/out gain settings on the FFace to eliminate the type of Buzz/hum/just plain any damn noise when you expect silence!!! I have the input setting on the FF on -10db & the output setting on the "Hi Gain" setting to get the quietest sound when not in playback... As mentioned by Steve, those units do indeed work for switching from unbalanced to balanced but as an immediate fix for the night to record, you might try the 3 prong adaptors and/or try running your power lines from the SP8s to a seperate circuit... If you don't have any I.D.s marking what each breaker is powering, you may have to get the wife/kid/dog or neighbor to work the Circuits with you to shutoff/on to I.D. what's going to what! Sorry this is so long but I know what it's like to have limited time to record & with those speakers.... I'd have to kick your dog too!!! HTHs a little! Wildman
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agincourtdb
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 14:07:01
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You need a power conditioner, like a Furman or Monster. Look at Musician's Friend or somewhere. It should eliminate your hum plus protect your gear from spikes and dips, and all without the risk of a ground lift.
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HammerHead
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 14:07:41
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you've eliminated your ground loop.
the ebtech should solve your issue.
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agincourtdb
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 14:11:34
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ORIGINAL: HammerHead
you've eliminated your ground loop.
the ebtech should solve your issue.
It does say it breaks the ground loop 'safely'... I'd be interested to know how, but it is probably a good solution.
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jpkeys
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 14:12:05
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ORIGINAL: Elvenking
Here is what I tried when I came home for lunch. I took a spare power cable that fits the monitors and brok off the grounding wire on it....used that to power up the monitor for a minute. Completely eliminates the noise alltogether. However...I don;t know if I like the idea of not grounding them.
Technically they most likely are still grounded through your computer. You only need one ground. Was everything originally plugged into the same circuit/outlet, or were the monitors and computer separate? Did you simply try putting everything into a single outlet, using a power strip if necessary? So the Marquis Compressor Param settings didn't help? JP
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b3gsus@msn.com
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 14:21:03
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I'm with Aggie on this at this point! I use 3 of the Furman Power Conditioners with the LED usage readout & it has a pair of telescopic rack lights with dimmers that are all integrated. They have 8 seperate plug inputs with circuit protection... You can also get one made by, "ETA" at Sweetwater for about $60 or so... Glad to hear or not hear,,, Congrats on a successful lunch!!! Wildman
Wildman,,aka,,,"Nick Danger" Studiocat Core2Quad Q9550 w/P45 Cset XP-Pro Sonar Pro 8, 2 FF 800, Wclock, Avalon VT-737, Focusrite V Master,Eureka, 2-LA-4s, Neumann U87,TLM-103,Rode NTK,MCU,Event SP8s, DynAudio BM5As VS-2480 4 DA88 2-Mackie 24/8buss
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losguy
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:01:14
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Eleven, you have discovered that you have a ground loop. Products that will help you:
ART DTI
Ebtech Hum Eliminator
and my favorite:
Ebtech Hum-X
Lots of posts by yours truly on ground loops. Several reliable and safe solutions available for you. Search for posts by losguy on the subject of "ground loop".
And don't continue to operate with the third prong disconnected. While it's OK for finding where the to break the loop, you then need to restore the connection and break the loop properly.
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:36:53
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Thank you all for the suggestions. A power conditioner is in the works as I type this. A side note.....the guys at Guitar Center know nothing. Five minutes of Internet reading will do you more good than those quacks ever will. I went there this afternoon to discuss my issue with them. The most empty hour of my life was spent with someone who had all the info they needed...and none of the answers. Thanks to the folks here on the cakewalk forum..I am much better off. ORIGINAL: losguy
Eleven, you have discovered that you have a ground loop. Products that will help you:
ART DTI
Ebtech Hum Eliminator
and my favorite:
Ebtech Hum-X
Lots of posts by yours truly on ground loops. Several reliable and safe solutions available for you. Search for posts by losguy on the subject of "ground loop".
And don't continue to operate with the third prong disconnected. While it's OK for finding where the to break the loop, you then need to restore the connection and break the loop properly.
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micv
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:37:47
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I had exactly the same problem. I spent a few hundred bucks on Furman line conditioner, Di box, expensive cables, and each of them does a specific job but they did not fix my issue until I found that my noise is comming from the room main AC circuit. So I bought a room isolation transformer and my noise is gone. I plug all my DAW audio device into this isolated circuit. I bought the 1800w unit since the circuit breaker is 15A for this room.
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lhansen
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:47:17
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ElvenKing,
I own the crap 410 as well and had the exact same issues. I just ran short unbalanced cables to my monitors as they will accept both. The hum stopped, but God forbid if I had to run longer lengths. i also had to isolate the cables from the electrical lines. I'll be upgrading to a RME FireFace 800 shortly. I had enough of this. The so-called Sales help at the local music store told me that they use balanced line outs when I asked. I'm tired of buying mediocre equipment. Just not worth the aggrevation anymore. I feel your pain.
Slow Marching Band Win 7 x64, Sonar X1E x64, Studio One v2, Focusrite Saffire 24 DSP Pro, Genelec 8030a, True Systems P-Solo, Focusrite ISA One, FMR RNP, GAP-73. "Someone to watch over me".
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:47:43
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micv
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:49:18
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ORIGINAL: Elvenking
Thank you all for the suggestions. A power conditioner is in the works as I type this.
Remember that a power conditioner does not isolate the ground. Depends on the type but it basically prevents spikes and provides a constant voltage. Some Furman/Monster unit have fancy metering and complex 'filtering' but that's it.
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Elvenking
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:50:50
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A MAJOR mistake on M-Audio not to include the Balanced outputs. Pretty stupid that they would make the thing so you can mix 7.1 on it...and not have balanced outs. When I bought the 410...I was such a noob, just wanted a good card to work with....it it came highly recommended. Ohh well....I always learn the hard way. I did do right by my monitors though....they are sweet. They sound absolutely beautiful. My friend also just got a pair too. We are very happy with them. Now to just get rid of my noise. ORIGINAL: lhansen
ElvenKing,
I own the crap 410 as well and had the exact same issues. I just ran short unbalanced cables to my monitors as they will accept both. The hum stopped, but God forbid if I had to run longer lengths. i also had to isolate the cables from the electrical lines. I'll be upgrading to a RME FireFace 800 shortly. I had enough of this. The so-called Sales help at the local music store told me that they use balanced line outs when I asked. I'm tired of buying mediocre equipment. Just not worth the aggrevation anymore. I feel your pain.
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TheFingers
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:51:33
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This is fine for an interim fix, there is another wire in the power cord (the neutral) that connects to the same point as the ground, back at the electrical panel.
1973 "A" neck. I'd rather be playing Bass:
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TheFingers
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RE: Problems With Unbalanced Outputs
2006/01/10 15:53:07
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Isolation transformer is the ultimate. Question, does it make any noise?
1973 "A" neck. I'd rather be playing Bass:
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