Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt

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sharke
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2018/01/30 04:53:20 (permalink)

Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt

Sometimes when I'm programming a Kontakt part that uses keyswitches, I find that the MIDI does not trigger the keys accurately. I remember having an awful time trying to use keyswitches in NI's Session Strings, and now I'm having the same problem with Strummed Acoustic. 
 
I have a palm muted strumming pattern that needs to change to a full strum at the end of every few measures. So I change the keyswitch note for these occasions, and enter the original MIDI note at the start of the next bar to change back to the palm muted pattern. The notes are fully quantized, but unfortunately it's as if Sonar's MIDI is being sent to Kontakt a little out of time because the palm muted note doesn't register in time for the start of the measure - it plays another full strum. 
 
The exact same thing happens with Session Strings - Sonar does not seem to get the keyswitches to Kontakt bang on the beat, and if they're not bang on the beat then the articulation doesn't change correctly. 
 
Is this likely to be a problem with Sonar just not sending MIDI information accurately, or could it be a problem in Kontakt? 

James
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    michael diemer
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/30 07:09:34 (permalink)
    I occasionally get that also, and from the Vienna player as well as Kontakt. I have no idea what's going on there, but it's sure frustrating.

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    BobF
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/30 12:45:30 (permalink)
    Not at my DAW, but I remember there being a Kontakt setting that basically sets how many beats it will continue when a note is played.  From memory, but I think I remember having to set this pretty short to get KS working properly - well, maybe not proper, but the way I wanted it to.  This was with Strummed Acoustic in non-SONAR DAWs.
     
    Same thing with Rise & Hit

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    sharke
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/30 15:58:45 (permalink)
    Be sure to let me know when you get back to your DAW Bob!
     
    I've never been 100% certain that Sonar's MIDI is bang-on, having experienced things like rendered kick drums which were fully quantized start either just before the beat or just after. I remember having a problem with Geist whereby if a MIDI part was looping and there was a kick hit right on the first beat, it wouldn't get played upon reiteration of the loop, and when I printed the audio it looked as if the kick started just before the beat. 
     
     

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    BobF
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/30 16:45:15 (permalink)
    I don't if this will help, but this is the setting I was referring to ... Latch Mode
     


    Bob  --
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    sharke
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/30 17:17:47 (permalink)
    Oh yeah I looked at that - I have it set to 1/8. I'm not sure if that just affects the chord notes or whether it affects the keyswitches as well. It determines when a chord will stop playing after the notes end - if you have it set to 1/4 for instance, it will wait until the nearest quarter note to stop playing once the chord notes end. 

    James
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    CakeAlexSHere
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/30 17:26:16 (permalink)
    You can test on Studio One?
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    BobF
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/30 18:22:40 (permalink)
    sharke
    Oh yeah I looked at that - I have it set to 1/8. I'm not sure if that just affects the chord notes or whether it affects the keyswitches as well. It determines when a chord will stop playing after the notes end - if you have it set to 1/4 for instance, it will wait until the nearest quarter note to stop playing once the chord notes end. 




    My thinking was that maybe the chord is still playing out a bit after the KS note because of this setting.
     
    In a Studio One song, I have latch set to Within 1/4.  The notes extend until 1/8 prior to where the next starts, with the KS note at the same point as the new note/chord.  Works fine in this extremely simple example.

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    msorrels
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/31 15:32:33 (permalink)
    These kinds of problems happen with all key switched instruments, not just Kontakt and not just SONAR.  Though some combinations seem worse than others. 
     
    One thing you can do (though it isn't always the best solution) is to load multiple copies of the same instrument into Kontakt and assign them to different MIDI channels.  Then set each one up to a single articulation and use MIDI channels to switch articulations rather than keyswitches.
     
    Usually that means separate MIDI tracks in SONAR (one for each MIDI channel/articulation) but you can change the MIDI channel on a note basis in a single track.  I have a CAL script that lets me assign the MIDI channel to selected notes that I use. It is not as nice as say Cubase's expression map stuff but it does work.
     
    When loading the same exact instrument into Kontakt multiple times, they share the sample memory pool so it doesn't eat more ram (which it would if you had separate instances of Kontakt).  It doesn't work always though since each separate instrument can't coordinate with the others (reverb/mixing/note cut offs/etc) but it can solve some problems.
     

    -Matt
     
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    Slugbaby
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/31 16:16:42 (permalink)
    I haven't had that problem with my Kontakt instruments (not the same as yours).
    I generally have my keyswitches programmed between hitting the last note of the old style and the first note of the new.  Not quantized to hit simultaneously with the note you want to switch.
     
    I'm not sure if this applies, but hopefully it might help.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/31 16:22:20 (permalink)
    I always make sure my keyswitches are a few ticks before the note(s) to which they are to be applied, so it switches before the note is heard.
     
    Worth experimenting with if nothing else.
     
     

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    Songroom
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/01/31 17:27:09 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey

    I always make sure my keyswitches are a few ticks before the note(s) to which they are to be applied, so it switches before the note is heard.



    Agreed...
     
    NI Strummed Acoustic Manual
    'Because transition from one pattern/chord to another is always legato, it is best to make changes a little before the intended position'
     
    I do the same. I often use a dedicated keyswitch MIDI track which can be nudged back a few ticks if necessary. Saying that, single chord strum endings can be tricky.
     
     

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    mettelus
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/02/01 15:22:57 (permalink)
    +1 to making sure the key switch is preceeding the note it is intended to affect. I have also noticed with certain synths that it also cannot be inserted effectively if a MIDI note is actively playing; so the synth engine needs enough gap to 1) let the prior notes "ring through" the keyswitch and 2) have the keyswitch take early enough before the next note for it to "take." How much for each of the above depends on the synths involved (I do not have Kontakt, so cannot speak to those directly).

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    michael diemer
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/02/01 18:03:47 (permalink)
    Songroom
    Bristol_Jonesey

    I always make sure my keyswitches are a few ticks before the note(s) to which they are to be applied, so it switches before the note is heard.



    Agreed...
     
    NI Strummed Acoustic Manual
    'Because transition from one pattern/chord to another is always legato, it is best to make changes a little before the intended position'
     
    I do the same. I often use a dedicated keyswitch MIDI track which can be nudged back a few ticks if necessary. Saying that, single chord strum endings can be tricky.
     
     


    Wow, almost more trouble than its worth. When they don't work, I use CC events if I can.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/02/01 19:43:05 (permalink)
    michael diemer
    Songroom
    Bristol_Jonesey

    I always make sure my keyswitches are a few ticks before the note(s) to which they are to be applied, so it switches before the note is heard.



    Agreed...
     
    NI Strummed Acoustic Manual
    'Because transition from one pattern/chord to another is always legato, it is best to make changes a little before the intended position'
     
    I do the same. I often use a dedicated keyswitch MIDI track which can be nudged back a few ticks if necessary. Saying that, single chord strum endings can be tricky.
     
     


    Wow, almost more trouble than its worth. When they don't work, I use CC events if I can.


    Not really
     
    I always have my keyswitched notes directly above the note pane in their own drum map so ks artics can be added in context with the notes they're being applied to.

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    sharke
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    Re: Problems with keyswitches in Kontakt 2018/02/02 03:42:17 (permalink)
    Taking snap off and extending the start of the note a touch before the beat seems to work. The only problem now is that Sonar seems to sometimes bork MIDI (getting it out of sync) when looping. And of course, if you're looping a section which starts with a keyswitch that you've nudged a little before the loop's start point, you have to make sure you have MIDI chase enabled. 

    James
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