Thomas Campitelli
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Proper way to use effects sends
Howdy Folks,
I have a stereo bus in which I placed a reverb plugin (in this case, the Sonitus reverb). I then set the reverb output to 0 db. Is it advisable to send more than one track's output to that send? If I send my guitars and my vocals to the same send, does that then return some guitar reverb to the vocal track and some vocal reverb to the guitar track? I thought this might be a way to save some CPU, but perphaps not. I fear I will just wind up with a lot of sends and reverbs.
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Kicker
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/27 01:45:11
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Thomas,
I think you are confusing a track insert with an aux bus send. On real mixers there is usually a track insert on each channel that will tap the signal after the pre-amp and before the fader. When a 1/4" plug is inserted, 100% of the signal is routed to the cable that feeds outboard effects. The output of the effects is sent back along the same cable to the mixer and continues along the normal signal path. So the outboard effects have to be set to 'mix' the dry signal with the wet signal - unless you are going for a totally 'warped' sound.
In SONAR this is analagous to the effects bin.
Also on mixers there is usually a bus send on each channel. This splits the signal after the pre-amp and sends half to the bus and half along the normal signal chain. The bus signal can be processed with effects and at some point is mixed back into the rest of the audio - usually in the master output.
This is what SONAR aux bus sends are for. They are perfect for adding a 'room reverb' to multiple tracks as in your example. Because the aux bus sends split the signal instead of tapping the signal, output that is routed back to the original track will create a feedback loop.
Aux busses can also be used to create separate mixes for monitoring by assigning the bus output straight to a sound card output. So if the singer needs more of his vocals in his headphones and the bassist needs more drums, each can have his own mix at the same time by adjusting the aux bus send levels.
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mlockett
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/27 15:49:12
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ORIGINAL: Thomas Campitelli
Howdy Folks,
I have a stereo bus in which I placed a reverb plugin (in this case, the Sonitus reverb). I then set the reverb output to 0 db. Is it advisable to send more than one track's output to that send? If I send my guitars and my vocals to the same send, does that then return some guitar reverb to the vocal track and some vocal reverb to the guitar track? I thought this might be a way to save some CPU, but perphaps not. I fear I will just wind up with a lot of sends and reverbs.
When you send your vocal to the verb, it doesn't come back to the vocal track or the guitar track; it goes to whatever track the bus is assigned to (preferably a master bus), but it doesn't work like a loop--more like a chain. For some things, the bus works very well. I always have at leat one bus for verb. Not only does it save cpu, it also means that the different tracks or instruments I send to that verb will tend to sound like they are in the same room. If you have 5 background vocal tracks, they'll probably sound better if they all go to the same verb bus. It also make it easier to pan a guitar to the left, but keep the verb centered (which more closely reflects the way acoustics work in real life). Some effects will have a different sound depending on where you put them since the bus, when used for a send becomes a parallel chain; for instance a compressor in a send-bus, while useful, has a different effect than palcing it in the track view. In general, any fx that have a wet/dry control are usually operating with a parallel concept any way and the final sound won't be as effected based on whether the effect is in the track bin or bus, but effects that don't (like most compressors) will have a different effect using a bus.
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ohhey
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/27 16:32:59
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You can do it that way just like we did in the old days with analog mixer, rack effects, and wires. But you don't have to do that now. Most computers have enough power to run a reverb for each track that needs it so you don't have to mess with sends and can adjust each one to taste. But yes, if you send more then one track to a bus with a single plugin all those tracks get mixed together just like they would on the bus or aux send of a real mixing board. The idea back in those days was that you would set your reverb to 100% wet so only the effect came back to the board at the effects return plugs. That way you didn't get dry single also that might cause phase shift when mixed with the dry channels during the final mixdown. When I first made the jump from a mixer to Sonar I used sends to try to recreate the hardware setup I had. Then the little light bulb went on above my head... oh, hey,.. I don't have a limited number of reverbs anymore.. I can add all kinds of these plugins and never run out,.. hell, I don't even need more wires to hook them up, this is great ! 
post edited by ohhey - 2006/07/27 16:48:16
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yep
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/27 16:45:57
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ORIGINAL: Thomas Campitelli
...I thought this might be a way to save some CPU, but perphaps not...
It is. Here's a common scenario: Let's say you have several tracks of drums: snare, kick, 2 toms, overheads, and so on. Chances are, there is some processing you'll want to do on the individual tracks-- maybe roll off the lows of the overheads, or compress the snare to get a little more pop out of it, or eq some of the mud out of the toms, or whatever. But maybe you also want some reverb to give a sense of space to the whole kit. So you process your tracks individually to clean them up and get the seperate kit pieces sounding good, and then bus them all to a dedicated "drums bus" where you can put one reverb on the bus and process the whole kit as though it were one instrument. Then you send the "drum bus" to your "main output" bus or just straight out to your soundcard (however you like to work). The cool thing is, you can also mix in the dry, un-reverbed drum kit pieces to the main outs, and control how much of each kit piece goes to reverb or whatever. You could even create seperate busses for subsections. So you could, say, send the toms to a seperate bus with a stereo widener for a dramatic tom roll, and have the cymbals and a little kick and snare sent to a reverb bus to get a realistic "kit in a room" sound, and also have the kick and snare sent to a dry bus with some compression/saturation effects to get a really kick ass backbeat, and so on. Cheers.
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ohhey
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/27 17:07:19
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ORIGINAL: yep
ORIGINAL: Thomas Campitelli
...I thought this might be a way to save some CPU, but perphaps not...
It is.
Here's a common scenario:
Let's say you have several tracks of drums: snare, kick, 2 toms, overheads, and so on.
Chances are, there is some processing you'll want to do on the individual tracks-- maybe roll off the lows of the overheads, or compress the snare to get a little more pop out of it, or eq some of the mud out of the toms, or whatever.
But maybe you also want some reverb to give a sense of space to the whole kit. So you process your tracks individually to clean them up and get the seperate kit pieces sounding good, and then bus them all to a dedicated "drums bus" where you can put one reverb on the bus and process the whole kit as though it were one instrument.
Then you send the "drum bus" to your "main output" bus or just straight out to your soundcard (however you like to work). The cool thing is, you can also mix in the dry, un-reverbed drum kit pieces to the main outs, and control how much of each kit piece goes to reverb or whatever. You could even create seperate busses for subsections. So you could, say, send the toms to a seperate bus with a stereo widener for a dramatic tom roll, and have the cymbals and a little kick and snare sent to a reverb bus to get a realistic "kit in a room" sound, and also have the kick and snare sent to a dry bus with some compression/saturation effects to get a really kick ass backbeat, and so on.
Cheers.
You can adjust the wet dry mix per track via the plugin but yeah.. you can do some cool things with buses. When you have midi drums you can use a "send to bus" mix to fake overhead mics if your sound module doesn't have that feature. Send all but the kick to the bus in stereo and then EQ out most of the lows and add the verb. It helps if you have recorded real drums before so you know about what overhead mics pick up.
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Thomas Campitelli
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/27 23:08:37
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Many thanks for all your responses. I was kind of hoping to set one reverb up and use it for everything, but based on responses, I can see that isn't going to work. I am using several busses for mixing purposes and putting effects on those busses, but having a magical reverb bus just isn't going to happen. Thanks again and I will get back to mixing.
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yep
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/27 23:21:28
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ORIGINAL: Thomas Campitelli
Many thanks for all your responses. I was kind of hoping to set one reverb up and use it for everything, but based on responses, I can see that isn't going to work. I am using several busses for mixing purposes and putting effects on those busses, but having a magical reverb bus just isn't going to happen. Thanks again and I will get back to mixing.
Um, setting up one reverb bus is perfectly fine, and it will work just fine. Many people like to have either multiple reverb sends or certain tracks with their own individual reverb, but that's solely personal preference, not technical necessity. Having just one reverb bus is as old as the hills. Until fairly recently, it wasn't unusual for a recording studio to have only one reverb device, and to have to send any tracks that needed reverb to that device. I don't know what aspect of bussing you're still having trouble with, but if you'd care to describe the difficulty in more detail, I'm sure you can do this. Cheers.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/28 12:44:49
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ORIGINAL: Thomas Campitelli
Many thanks for all your responses. I was kind of hoping to set one reverb up and use it for everything, but based on responses, I can see that isn't going to work. I am using several busses for mixing purposes and putting effects on those busses, but having a magical reverb bus just isn't going to happen. Thanks again and I will get back to mixing.
i don't quite understand what your problem is, so maybe i'm missing something. what i do is set up a bus with reverb on it. i don't actually route anything to that bus (using i/o), i just add a send to the reverb bus on tracks and busses that i want to have reverb. they all get the same reverb but i can control how much with the send volume for each one. i can control the overall level with the reverb bus volume control. the reverb bus gets routed to my 'master' bus, just like any other busses i have for guitars, drums, vocals, etc. this also gives me the ability to quickly mute the reverb to see whether it is muddying up the sound or making it more distinct. it's easy to get mix blindness with verb and either add way too much (most common) or not enough.
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Thomas Campitelli
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/28 23:06:34
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I'll provide a little bit more detail and perhaps it is my methodology that is at fault. I have two thracks of rhythm guitars, panned hard left and right. I send these to a bus for the purposes of setting mixing levels, EQing, and/or special effects. I do this with drums as well. I have programed drums, live hats and rides, and I send all that to another bus for the reasons mentioned above. Same thing for vocals. They go to a bus, often two (one for verses and one for choruses). So I have 20 to 25 audio tracks and a fair number of them get routed to four or five busses for ease of mixing. These busses and the non-bused audio tracks ultimately get routed to another bus for the main output. I set my levels and play around and often put a reverb on each bus as needed and adjust to taste. It would be nice to have an extra reverb bus where I could send all of the tracks that I want to reverberate and adjust the send level based on how much verb I want to hear. That way everything sounds like it's in the same room. Plus, there's only one reverb to tweak and keep track of. However, I start running into problems with this. I have my levels set so that I don't push too far beyond -6 dB on my main out. When I start sending my tracks to the reverb bus, my mix tends to get louder overall. I also feel like I have less control over what I am hearing. Putting a reverb in the effects bin does not tend to change the volume of the track by much unless you explicitly tell it do so. Am I making sense? I feel like routing things to a reverb bus introduces volume changes than cannot be easily controlled. Thank you, by the way for all of your responses. I feel I have a better grasp of what is going on, even though I am not quite where I need to be.
post edited by Thomas Campitelli - 2006/07/29 17:33:04
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Jonny M
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/29 14:22:34
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Just want to clarify something with you guys (I tried to post something similar elsewhere but no-one's looked at it and I'm going to have to get an idea about it soon because I'm almost done recording the tracks and will start cleaning them up and mixing soon...) 1) If I add a little compression or EQ to a vocal track to tidy up the recording prior to overall mixing (e.g. to compensate for movement closer/further from the mic, and a wailing chorus at the end in an otherwise soft vocal song, and to roll off some of the low-end etc), should I apply this directly to the wave, or to the track's effects bin? Also, if I put several little 'tidy-ups' in the effects bin, will it process each in turn or all at the same time? For example if I have a compressor at the top of the bin, then underneath an EQ, will the EQ be processing the signal post-compression or will it try to do both at the same time? And should I eq before or after compression? 2) Is it true that when you put a 'send to bus' in a track, that only 50% of the original signal is run through that bus? If so, if I have that bus going from there into another one (and not the master, so I'm setting up a longer chain), would that signal be split by another 50%? i.e. does the amount of signal sent diminish with each bus (so the second bus is only processing 25% of the signal and not 50%)? 3) If I have the 'tidy-up' items in the effects bin, and I also send to a bus, will the signal received by the bus have been processed first through the effects bin, or will 50% of the signal be processed by the effects bin, and the other sent off to the bus? Sorry, just the whole bus thing sort of confuses me.
post edited by Jonny M - 2006/07/29 14:45:33
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/29 19:20:37
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ORIGINAL: Thomas Campitelli
So I have 20 to 25 audio tracks and a fair number of them get routed to four or five busses for ease of mixing. These busses and the non-bused audio tracks ultimately get routed to another bus for the main output. I set my levels and play around and often put a reverb on each bus as needed and adjust to taste. It would be nice to have an extra reverb bus where I could send all of the tracks that I want to reverberate and adjust the send level based on how much verb I want to hear. That way everything sounds like it's in the same room. Plus, there's only one reverb to tweak and keep track of.
this is essentially what i do - one reverb to rule them all (well usually i throw in another one for the snare). However, I start running into problems with this. I have my levels set so that I don't push too far beyond -6 dB on my main out. When I start sending my tracks to the reverb bus, my mix tends to get louder overall. I also feel like I have less control over what I am hearing. Putting a reverb in the effects bin does not tend to change the volume of the track by much unless you explicitly tell it do so. Am I making sense? I feel like routing things to a reverb bus introduces volume changes than cannot be easily controlled. Thank you, by the way for all of your responses. I feel I have a better grasp of what is going on, even though I am not quite where I need to be. you are making sense, although i have to say i've had the opposite experience. per-track reverb (or any effects really) in the effects bin by default tends to be way too much when i do it that way. in any case though, reverb will raise the volume of your mix. do you have some kind of limiter or compressor on the main bus? you want to make sure your reverb is routed to the main bus and not your soundcard directly. if you are talking relative volume of the reverb, you can just lower it of course. but if the volume is too loud i'd just drop all your busses a notch (including the verb) until it gets back where it belongs. also a high-pass on your verb will go a long way in improving the sound and managing the volume. without one you are just multiplying the mud.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/29 20:00:32
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ORIGINAL: Jonny M
1) If I add a little compression or EQ to a vocal track to tidy up the recording prior to overall mixing (e.g. to compensate for movement closer/further from the mic, and a wailing chorus at the end in an otherwise soft vocal song, and to roll off some of the low-end etc), should I apply this directly to the wave, or to the track's effects bin? Also, if I put several little 'tidy-ups' in the effects bin, will it process each in turn or all at the same time? For example if I have a compressor at the top of the bin, then underneath an EQ, will the EQ be processing the signal post-compression or will it try to do both at the same time? And should I eq before or after compression?
in general you shouldn't* use compression to fix intermittent dynamic problems (vocals are a prime example of when not to). instead use a clip gain envelope. it's pre-effects bin/sends so it fixes the issue before it can spread. if you are looking for a certain sound then compression may be the way to go, or if you've got an instrument continually popping out volume wise like acoustic guitar and bass guitar. never apply anything directly to the wave (unless you are talking about clip envelopes). destructively editing a wave is almost always a bad idea*. use the effects bin for compression and eq, or a buss if you've got multiple tracks needing the exact same thing. the effects bin is processed from the top down. typically what i do with compression is put an eq in front and one after. the first eq takes out fundamental and resonant frequencies (depends on the instrument) and i typically have a high-pass and a low-pass as well. this way the compressor isn't processing frequencies most likely to cause "ducking" (when a track inexplicably drops in volume). then i put on the compressor and i watch and listen to make sure i'm getting the kind of gain reduction that i'm looking for. if i still want to boost a particular frequency then i use the post-compressor eq. basically i'm getting rid of all the frequencies i don't want the compressor to deal with, and afterward boosting the frequencies it may have squashed in the process.
2) Is it true that when you put a 'send to bus' in a track, that only 50% of the original signal is run through that bus? If so, if I have that bus going from there into another one (and not the master, so I'm setting up a longer chain), would that signal be split by another 50%? i.e. does the amount of signal sent diminish with each bus (so the second bus is only processing 25% of the signal and not 50%)?
when you use a send the signal is split between the track and the bus. there is no "reduction" in the signal unless you explicitly drop the send volume. the resulting sounds are mixed together, so the result is 50% the raw sound and 50% the bussed sound, but there is "more sound" than just the single track by itself.
3) If I have the 'tidy-up' items in the effects bin, and I also send to a bus, will the signal received by the bus have been processed first through the effects bin, or will 50% of the signal be processed by the effects bin, and the other sent off to the bus?
that depends on whether you set the send to pre-fader or post-fader. pre-fader means the raw sound gets processed before any volume or effects or anything. so you could send a signal pre-fader to a reverb, drop the track volume completely to "inf", and it will not affect the volume of the reverb bus. post-fader includes all the effects if i'm not mistaken. again, the signal is not reduced, just split into two signals. * no warranties or guarantees, express or implied...
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Jonny M
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/29 20:24:28
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Thanks, jack, just the info I was looking for. Just to further clarify a little (tomorow I should be done with recording and will start playing about, so this is going to come in handy...) With regards to (2): If I send a track say to Bus 1, and then Bus 1 is sent to Bus 2 and Bus 2 to the Master, how is the signal split then? Would it be 50% raw and 50% going to bus 1 and through to bus 2 and bus 2 to the master (effects being applied in buses 1 & 2), or would 50% go to bus 1, and then 50% of bus 1 then go to bus 2? (as in 25% of the original signal - if that makes sense?) With (3): How do I determine if the send Bus in the track pane is pre or post fader? I'd want all bus sends to be post fader but don't know how to check. I can understand what you mean about not wanting to compress to fix the dynamic problems. I only do it because apart from also evening the vocals out 'across the board', I kinda like the sound of processed vocals. I'm a Radiohead/Muse fan and the latter in particular sounds like the vocals are squeezed to crazy and it's a cool sound. A friend of mine listened to a version of a track with me singing raw and with me after compression, and they liked what the compression did to the character of my voice, so I almost do it as an automatic these days.
post edited by Jonny M - 2006/07/29 20:40:30
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/29 23:33:06
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ORIGINAL: Jonny M
With regards to (2): If I send a track say to Bus 1, and then Bus 1 is sent to Bus 2 and Bus 2 to the Master, how is the signal split then? Would it be 50% raw and 50% going to bus 1 and through to bus 2 and bus 2 to the master (effects being applied in buses 1 & 2), or would 50% go to bus 1, and then 50% of bus 1 then go to bus 2? (as in 25% of the original signal - if that makes sense?)
if by "sent" you mean with a bus send (which is what we've been talking about, you can also route directly but that's something else), then: track #1 gives an exact copy of the sound to bus 1. bus one gives an exact copy of the sound to bus 2. bus 2 gives an exact copy of the sound to the "master" bus (not the soundcard). again, there isn't a reduction in sound but all the different sounds mix together. if indeed you are using a send to the master bus (instead of routing with the output, which is how most people do it) then you've probably (again, depends on routing) got 4 separate audio streams which get mixed together at the master bus: the raw stream
bus 1
bus 2 (bus 1 processing + bus 2 processing)
master (bus 1 processing + bus 2 processing + any master processing)
this is how i normally do stuff:
track 1, guitar
routed to guitar bus for eq (not sent, as we don't want the original sound getting processed)
bus 1, guitar
routed to master bus
send to bus 2, delay
send to bus 3, reverb
bus 2, delay
routed to master bus
bus 3, reverb
routed to master bus
at the end i've got these sounds:
raw sound - just like it was before anything was done to it
delayed sound
reverb sound
so the final mix has one of each. i don't like the percentage thing as it appears there is only room for "x" amount of sound so each send drops the volume by 6db or something to make it "fit"... hopefully it means something different to you. it is true that each sound is mixed in separately, so the total mix does consist of 33% raw sound, 33% delayed sound and 33% reverb sound... but it's not really a percentage in my head. =)
With (3): How do I determine if the send Bus in the track pane is pre or post fader? I'd want all bus sends to be post fader but don't know how to check.
it's post by default and there should be a button by the fx send that says "post", at least that's how it is in sonar 3.
I can understand what you mean about not wanting to compress to fix the dynamic problems. I only do it because apart from also evening the vocals out 'across the board', I kinda like the sound of processed vocals. I'm a Radiohead/Muse fan and the latter in particular sounds like the vocals are squeezed to crazy and it's a cool sound. A friend of mine listened to a version of a track with me singing raw and with me after compression, and they liked what the compression did to the character of my voice, so I almost do it as an automatic these days.
if you are compressing to get a "sound" then you're on the right track. compressing to fix dynamics though should be avoided where possible.
a lot of bands squash their vocals and many double them as well - make a clone of the vocal track, pan it 35% one way or the other, drop it say 6-12db and put a short delay on it. gives you a foo fighters sound, approximately. =)
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Kicker
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/30 01:45:48
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ORIGINAL: Thomas Campitelli
However, I start running into problems with this. I have my levels set so that I don't push too far beyond -6 dB on my main out. When I start sending my tracks to the reverb bus, my mix tends to get louder overall. I also feel like I have less control over what I am hearing. Putting a reverb in the effects bin does not tend to change the volume of the track by much unless you explicitly tell it do so.
This happens because busses that are fed from sends (as opposed to tracks that are sent to the bus by setting the track output) are working on a duplication of the original audio. If the bus effects are set to less than 100% wet you will get a net amplification when the bus is mixed together with the original audio. Edit: Even with the effects set to 100% there will be a net amplification. You may have to pull back on the track fader to compensate. You can also put a send on the "sum" busses (where you have the output of the drum tracks set to a bus to control the overall drum volume with one fader). So you can put a send on a sum bus and pull the sum bus fader down a little to get the volume right.
post edited by Kicker - 2006/07/30 02:02:23
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Jonny M
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/30 09:16:39
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Hi guys, I'm really sorry about this - if I'm not scribbling things on paper whilst explaining or seeing things on a screen with someone telling me, I can find it a bit difficult to take things in, so I'm almost set about jack's description, but something still isn't quite sitting right, and each time I read over it I'm confusing myself more. I suffer from overcomplicting things sometimes! okay, I'll try and explain myself a little better and promise I won't ask again...
What I’ll probably do is put a bit of compression and an EQ in my vocal track's bin (track 1) for character, and put a bus send in that track to Bus 1, whose bin will contain reverb followed by EQ or a filter.
What I’m trying to determine though is, if I change the output option on Bus 1 from it’s default ‘Master’ to Bus 2, will Bus 2 be applying it’s effect to the processed signal from Bus 1, or will bus 1 further split the signal between itself and Bus 2, so part of the original signal will be processed with verb/EQ and part of it processed with whatever is on Bus 2.
(If Bus 1 is splitting the signal it receives from Track 1, processing one part and merely passing on the other part to Bus 2, where is Bus 1's sound coming from if it's not pointing to a master output anymore?)
Thansk for your patience with me!
Jonny
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Thomas Campitelli
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/30 10:20:13
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Many thanks for all of your responses. I think I have enough info to sort this out.
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Jonny M
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RE: Proper way to use effects sends
2006/07/30 12:31:48
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It's ok, I've just looked at Sonar (probably should have done that from the beginning) and figured it out. I was confusing "Bus Sends" with "Output", hence me not quite grasping Jacks explanation! I've noticed that the track itself has an "output" and a "bus send", whereas the buses just have an "output" - which is pointing to "master". So I guess any track with a bus send is having the signal split, but a track with just an output is sent in it's entirety. So if I want further processing on the whole signal received by bus 1 (which would be 50% of the source track), I have to change the output on bus 1 from "master" to "bus 2" ( edit: umm, or just put anothe effect in it's bin). If I want to split "bus 1" up further (i.e so only 50% of bus 1's signal is further processed) I create a further "bus send" within "bus 1" to "bus 2", but leave the bus' output to "master". Crikey.
post edited by Jonny M - 2006/07/30 12:45:47
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