Helpful ReplyPros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists

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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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2014/09/06 05:30:06 (permalink)

Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists

Hi Everybody!
 
I'd like to pull your brains as regards hands-on experience of Sonar play lists for live use (to provide aux backing tracks @ live shows). I'd appreciate if you could give me some hints on potential pitfalls regarding set-up, stories what happened to you ... so that I get a feel for pros and cons ...
 
As background info: We are currently using a hands-free set-up which needs some work but before we embark on this I'd like to know whether play lists are the way to go .... well, here's what we have in use at the moment:
  1. single Sonar project containing all songs with markers at songs starts to be able to jump
  2. next/prev marker, stop and play executed from a floorboard MIDI controller, so set-up is hands and mouse-free on stage
  3. each songs contains a MIDI prg chg message at the start to call the specific scene set-up on the digital mixer
This set-up works very well, but has a major drawback when adding songs or changing song order (huge effort in Sonar or alternatively requires stepping through markers in order to find the right place to continue which disrupts the flow of the show) ...
 
A first quick test of play lists looked promising, yet documentation is so limited. There are a number of questions already (Can I use key bindings for start/stop/next in play lists? Can I use it to record tracks to each song? How to disable the silent bus warning?) ...
 
Thanks in advance to anyone sharing more insight.
Rob
 

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#1
Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/14 02:54:45 (permalink)
no one using this feature??? let's hope the bakers don't drop it because my tests over here look very promising for what I intend to do with it :-)

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Anderton
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/14 12:34:00 (permalink)
FreeFlyBertl
no one using this feature??? let's hope the bakers don't drop it because my tests over here look very promising for what I intend to do with it :-)



When playlists were broken, users of same were VERY vocal about a fix, which Cakewalk implemented. Hopefully those people will show up and tell you how they use playlists. I haven't used that feature myself...hmmm...another thing to check out.

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Sidroe
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/14 19:57:48 (permalink)
I have tried using playlists to play individual projects one after another. It works fine except that you have to leave a few more blank measures after the playback starts for the samples to load in to the vstis. As I'm sure you are aware, long load times mean dead air! That extra 10 seconds could mean the difference between a packed dance floor and the Sahara Desert. Once you've lost them, you have to start winning them back over again. That scenario can be plain exhausting and frustrating. Over the years of playing a lot of the venues over again, I have made lists that are assembled from files that are custom EQed and tweaked for certain rooms.
It is so much easier to convert mixes to mp3s and make playlists in Media Player than being bothered with Sonar. It's a lot easier to locate that one requested song in the middle of a set and insert it in there. I still prefer using the original project files but sometimes the show needs to move faster and more flexible than Sonar will let you. 

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sock monkey
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/14 22:19:34 (permalink)
Being someone who used to drag an Atari around I have been a live sequence user for 3 decades. 
Sonar is just plain too slow as Sidroe has just mentioned. I need to keep the focus on the dance floor and I also need the flexibility to change the set lists on the fly. 
I use a USB foot controller and tracks are Wave files played from Win Amp. 
 
http://www.cactusmusic.ca/johns_rig.htm
 
 

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rscain
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/16 08:20:48 (permalink)
I did a gig with a guy that used it just a little while back and it worked flawlessly. There was no appreciable lag time for loading files or instruments that I could tell. And he was using X2.
I was so impressed with it I've started experimenting with it myself. I've noticed that as one file is playing the next file starts to load so there's no lag. But I'm only loading projects that have maybe 10 or 12 tracks maximum. If you were loading projects with huge track or vsti counts then YMMV.

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Kronosman
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/16 09:15:21 (permalink)
This may appear to be my first post; however, I was unable to migrate my former account. Anyway...
I used to employ the play list feature on many occasions with few problems. The main downside occurs if you have to pause a song during playback: the song pauses but automatically resets itself to the beginning of the song. Usually when you pause, you want to continue playing from that point. Until I can resolve this issue, I've stopped using play lists.
Maybe I'm missing some toggle that would correct this, but I haven't found it yet.
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Splat
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/16 20:37:46 (permalink)
Anderton
When playlists were broken,



... which leads to the first step when using them. You must be on X3E (OP's sig says X3c).

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Guitarpima
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/16 21:00:46 (permalink)
Doesn't anyone use live musicians anymore?

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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/16 21:05:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ...wicked 2014/09/16 21:20:08
... well dead ones could be a logistical nightmare... (mind you they won't be going anywhere).

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Kronosman
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/17 04:58:56 (permalink)
FWIW: I am using Sonar Producer X3e. The problem I referred to (rewinding to measure one after pause) still exists.

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Karyn
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/17 08:01:42 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
... well dead ones could be a logistical nightmare... (mind you they won't be going anywhere).


They're always late for rehearsal.

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Sidroe
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/17 09:11:40 (permalink)
Due to the financial burdens on our country for the last several years, club owners found out they can cut their entertainment budget in half by replacing real musicians with one guy and what I call "Silicone Musicians". When I introduce myself at the venue I always take time to introduce myself and my laptop as Sidroe and the Silicone Band! It's good for a laugh here and there.
I think it is sad that old school musicians, as myself, have been hauled kicking and screaming in to the world of laptop performance. But I think it's even sadder to see less and less venues for ANY musicians to perform. If you do music for a hobby, GREAT! and more power to you. The guys like me who have done this for a living ALL of their lives find it harder to get consistent bookings now. I can safely say out of the numerous club and motel gigs around me, 90% of them are 1 guy, sitting on a stool with an acoustic under a 100 watt light bulb singing Midnite Rider! PLEASE! I'll take a bottle of Jack and a pistol at table 3!
There was a time in my life that live performance was my main income and the studio was just extra pocket money and fun. NOW the studio is my main income and live performance is very occasional.

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rscain
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/17 09:48:58 (permalink)
Sidroe
Due to the financial burdens on our country for the last several years, club owners found out they can cut their entertainment budget in half by replacing real musicians with one guy and what I call "Silicone Musicians".
 ........... I can safely say out of the numerous club and motel gigs around me, 90% of them are 1 guy, sitting on a stool with an acoustic under a 100 watt light bulb singing Midnite Rider! PLEASE! I'll take a bottle of Jack and a pistol at table 3!


+1
It's the same around here. A four or five piece band can't make a decent living around here anymore. You have to be able to travel, in some cases a couple of hundred miles, to find any decent paying gigs. And of course those are in the larger cities so there are 100s of bands there vying for those same gigs which also tends to keep the money lower. To make enough money to make it worthwhile to play live, and by that I mean cover expenses and have a little pocket coin left over, you have to keep the overhead as low as possible.
It sucks but that's the world we live in nowadays.

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Anderton
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/17 22:31:52 (permalink)
[incredible temptation to get really political but I'll leave it at this]
 
Downsizing has a ripple effect. When the middle class shrinks, it affects everyone in the middle class. Real incomes have declined, so people who might have wanted to see a band can't afford it. So the person running the club has a drop in attendance, and the people who do come have fewer drinks. The club owner cuts back, which means that bands that used to make a living can't. So they don't go to movies any more, and the theater owners raise prices on concessions. People go out less, so they drive less, and the car dealers don't sell as many cars because people keep their cars longer, and the gas stations don't pump as much gas. It's a vicious spiral, because wealth is being transferred out of the middle class, and the middle class can't seem to be bothered to vote or be politically active. 
 
I'll shut up, sorry. Now, about playlists...I'm going to start checking out the subject to see what I find. In all my years of Sonar, I've never used playlists.

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joden
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/18 00:13:37 (permalink)
and just like here it (the wealth) just keeps going to the upper classes, who are, seemingly, impervious to anything and everything going on below them.
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Sidroe
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/18 09:20:22 (permalink)
I applaud you, Craig! You cut right to the chase without using any internet rumor mill goodies that lead us to believe that Obama is behind the plot to make Skittles sugar free. LOL!
Honestly, though, that was a very concise observation without becoming politically correct. Thanks!

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rscain
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/18 09:38:49 (permalink)
Anderton
[incredible temptation to get really political but I'll leave it at this]
 
Downsizing has a ripple effect. When the middle class shrinks, it affects everyone in the middle class. Real incomes have declined, so people who might have wanted to see a band can't afford it. So the person running the club has a drop in attendance, and the people who do come have fewer drinks. The club owner cuts back, which means that bands that used to make a living can't. So they don't go to movies any more, and the theater owners raise prices on concessions. People go out less, so they drive less, and the car dealers don't sell as many cars because people keep their cars longer, and the gas stations don't pump as much gas. It's a vicious spiral, because wealth is being transferred out of the middle class, and the middle class can't seem to be bothered to vote or be politically active. 
 


+1
Exactly! Hit the nail on the head.

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Guitarpima
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/18 10:16:47 (permalink)
I agree Craig. I won't go into it either because of the TOS, The other reason is nobody likes the truth. Denial rules the roost. Sad....

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sock monkey
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/18 11:40:53 (permalink)
"There was a time in my life that live performance was my main income and the studio was just extra pocket money and fun. NOW the studio is my main income and live performance is very occasional."
 
Wow, sounds like my story too! 
But I wouldn't blame the economy per say, Here in BC they started really cracking down on drinking and driving back in the 80's and we point our fingers at that being the turning point. 
Bar owners became liable for anyone killed in a car crash after leaving their premises, roadside checks every weekend and sometimes weeknights etc. 
It's a good thing for society bad thing for musicians,,, I guess people need to drink to dance to live music.   
People started staying home, people stopped drinking in bars. 
It totally killed the old weekend party scene. 
Almost overnight bars were seeing less and less business and slowly stopped hiring bands and asking if we could downsize. It was not them I ever blamed.  They started hiring duos and singles. 
When I moved here in 1981 there were 5 Bars and 3 of them always had live bands. 
An interesting note: over time they all burned down and only 2 rebuilt from the ashes neither included a stage or dance floor in the new designs, they focus on dinning. 
 
As the music scene changed a few of use "technically minded" musicians quickly learned how to operate drum machines. We quickly moved on to sequencing and spent thousands of dollars on the gear. Some younger folks just don't realize how spoiled rotten we are now and the next one who complains about spending $200 on a audio interface gets monkey poo thrown at them! 
So now 3 decades latter I have the best sound and equipment ever, but there is nowhere to play. 
 
Good news is all those years of learning how to sequence and create killer backing tracks pays off when working with clients. I have a good reputation for taking original songs and helping the artist bring them to  life. One man bands are very handy folks in a studio! 
 
I still play at a few repeat events each year and I am also working on a acoustic duo. We are focusing on originals and hoping to bust into the summer festival gigs. The outdoor festivals might just be the last stronghold of live music. But we are reluctant to use our backing tracks which is mostly to have a bass player as that seem sort of tacky for festivals. 
 
I would love to see a well thought out playback system brought to the market. I don't see it happening as there's just not much of a market anymore. In the 90's there was a huge demand for live performance gear. Now It's all this DJ crap. ( no offence intended to all you DJ's)  
I tried Sonars Playlist but loading is slow on my older laptops I use if I used my original projects as is. So your faced with dumbing them down and in the end might as well export the mix. 
 
 Win Amp  works the best of all players I ever tried. 
It's the only one I know of that will stop after each song. Drag and drop playlist. Hot keys for my X Keys foot control. Sonar has those features but it's also boring to look at. 
 
 
post edited by sock monkey - 2014/09/18 13:52:41

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#20
fwrend
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/18 12:04:14 (permalink)
Anderton
[incredible temptation to get really political but I'll leave it at this]
 
Now, about playlists...I'm going to start checking out the subject to see what I find. In all my years of Sonar, I've never used playlists.




Back in the day when Cake (TwelveToneSys) came on a 5.25/3.5" floppy as a sequencer, I loved the playlist feature.   I know that focus turned to Audio but MIDI continues to be relevant/uselful in so many areas - I've always felt that Cakewalk should be head and shoulders above other programs when it comes to MIDI implementation because of it's history.
 
Yes, I know we're not talking here about MIDI specifically but what power & flexibility with todays technology for live use there is for using Audio & MIDI in tandem and usefulness of Playlists specifically for musicians who need/desire to perform as efficiently as possible in a familiar software enviornment!
 
I for one look forward to reading up on how you view playlists in it's current state Craig - perhaps another SOS article, Tip O' the Day, or perhaps some insight for Cake to possibly have a looksee possible update (if needed).
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Anderton
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/18 20:37:58 (permalink)
fwrend
 
I for one look forward to reading up on how you view playlists in it's current state Craig - perhaps another SOS article, Tip O' the Day, or perhaps some insight for Cake to possibly have a looksee possible update (if needed).




Well, I have been known to take requests 

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Sidroe
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/19 09:30:34 (permalink)
Hey, Sock. We have the same legal statutes about clubowners being responsible here in Georgia as well. And I agree that it did have some what of an impact but not near as much as just the plain fact that you can't afford to go out anymore. Back when all our kids were living at home even before the markets fell it could cost close to 100 to 150 dollars just to take in a meal and a movie for us all. Nowadays, I couldn't even consider it.
Now the kids are grown and gone but the grand kids keep us hopping. I heard a comic once say," The good news is your kids are gone. The bad news is they're coming back. AND THERE'S MORE OF 'EM!"
It is a comfort to know, though, we are resilient and always find a way to adapt and continue making our art. Even if the technology forces us to find a way to continue. Thank heavens we have the tools that we do now. 

Sonar Platinum, Sonar X3e, Sonar X2a , Sonar X1 Expanded and 8.5.3 (32 and 64 bit), Windows 10 on a Toshiba P75-A7200 Laptop with i7 @ 2.4 quad and 8 gigs of RAM and secondary WD 1 Tb drive, Windows 10 desktop, Asus i5 @ 3.2 quad, 12 gigs RAM, 1 Tb drive, 1 500 gig drive, MOTU 24io, 2 Roland Studio Captures, Saffire 6 USB for laptop, Soundtracs Topaz Project 8 mixer, Alesis Monitor 2s, Event BAS 20/20s, Roland Micro-Monitor BA-8s, and 45 years worth of collecting FX, Mics, Amps, Guitars, and Keyboards!
#23
Anderton
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/19 10:04:48 (permalink)
One place where regulations had a definite impact was in choking off the EDM scene back in the late 90s/early 2000s. While it was thriving throughout the world, several state laws were passed (IIRC New York state was the first in a series) making clubowners liable for drug use on their premises. The joke at the time was every high school principal would have to be arrested, but the laws had a chilling effect on dance clubs.
 
Having seen what drugs can do I'm certainly not in favor of a drug culture, but I don't think it's correct to deprive the majority of people something enjoyable because of the actions of a few. In any event it was a crucial time in the evolution of EDM, and it was like slamming on the brakes.
 
I do think live performance will make a comeback within the next 10 years, possibly through unanticipated media (e.g., pay-per-view live streaming in movie theaters).

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#24
Guitarpima
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/19 10:26:49 (permalink)
Ironic comment about the drug culture. Now our doctors are our dealers.
 
I worked for a guy who did this back in the early 1990s. He had his 3.5 floppies ready to load into two different MC500 MkII machines and a whole lot of gear. I always wondered what playlists were. Now I know.

Notation, the original DAW. Everything else is just rote. We are who we are and no more than another. Humans, you people are crazy.
 
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#25
JCody
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/19 20:08:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby FreeFlyBertl 2014/09/27 05:12:32
Just wanted to chime in and say that the PLAYLIST feature is how we run our live productions. With it we can send midi time code to our lighting board to fire lighting cues, send program changes to our mixing console to turn mics on and off and of course play the music and sound FX. To me it is essential. Yeah I think it could use a little more tweaking to be perfect, but I'm using it. ALOT.
#26
Anderton
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/19 20:38:56 (permalink)
JCody
Just wanted to chime in and say that the PLAYLIST feature is how we run our live productions. With it we can send midi time code to our lighting board to fire lighting cues, send program changes to our mixing console to turn mics on and off and of course play the music and sound FX. To me it is essential. Yeah I think it could use a little more tweaking to be perfect, but I'm using it. ALOT.




Ever consider writing an article for the Cakewalk blog? I for one would be really interested in more details on how you use the program.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#27
Paul P
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/19 22:10:14 (permalink)
Sidroe
The good news is your kids are gone. The bad news is they're coming back.


 
The upside of this, from a purely selfish point of view, is that we get to keep our girls around a lot longer than would have been the case 30 years ago.  At their age (early twenties) I was gone and wouldn't have dreamed of going back, but they can't afford to  (and neither can we).
 
It's nice to still have them around.  Soon it'll be pretty empty.
 

Sonar Platinum [2017.10], Win7U x64 sp1, Xeon E5-1620 3.6 GHz, Asus P9X79WS, 16 GB ECC, 128gb SSD, HD7950, Mackie Blackjack
#28
JCody
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/22 13:41:54 (permalink)
Anderton
JCody
Just wanted to chime in and say that the PLAYLIST feature is how we run our live productions. With it we can send midi time code to our lighting board to fire lighting cues, send program changes to our mixing console to turn mics on and off and of course play the music and sound FX. To me it is essential. Yeah I think it could use a little more tweaking to be perfect, but I'm using it. ALOT.




Ever consider writing an article for the Cakewalk blog? I for one would be really interested in more details on how you use the program.


I'd love to, but I'm currently in a time crunch getting our next production up. This time we're using Sonar to run video clips as well as the above mentioned things. Let me know how to add to the blog, and maybe when I have time I'll chime in.
#29
SteveGriffiths
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Re: Pros and Cons of SONAR Play Lists 2014/09/23 16:08:37 (permalink)
Sidroe
I have tried using playlists to play individual projects one after another. It works fine except that you have to leave a few more blank measures after the playback starts for the samples to load in to the vstis. As I'm sure you are aware, long load times mean dead air! That extra 10 seconds could mean the difference between a packed dance floor and the Sahara Desert. Once you've lost them, you have to start winning them back over again. That scenario can be plain exhausting and frustrating. Over the years of playing a lot of the venues over again, I have made lists that are assembled from files that are custom EQed and tweaked for certain rooms.
It is so much easier to convert mixes to mp3s and make playlists in Media Player than being bothered with Sonar. It's a lot easier to locate that one requested song in the middle of a set and insert it in there. I still prefer using the original project files but sometimes the show needs to move faster and more flexible than Sonar will let you. 




I also mix my stuff down for use.  However, I send the tracks to an iPad, and use ForScore to play them back.  If you don't know it, it is primarily a lyric app ($7).  But, you can associate a track (or more) with each song, and it will also send out MIDI when you select the song, for me that means my POD, Vocal Live, Looper, drum machine and Keyboard(s) all get set up for me when I pick the song - huge time saver - no between song setup time.( I am a modern one man band - play guitar and keys and sing over tracks or loops etc.  The OP can use this to set his digital mix patch.  It will respond to bluetooth so it is easy to use a page turner for hands free operation.
#30
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