darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
Hi all. This isn't strictly a Sonar question - but it could be, and I'm casting the net as wide as I can. This problem has been kind of devouring my life...
On my desktop I am running Ableton Live (pretend its Sonar?) to record and monitor my guitar input with a bunch of plugins. Simultaneously, I'm running another application (TS-Audio-To-MIDI) that recognizes that same audio input and converts it to MIDI. All of this is working fine - on the desktop - with a Presonus Firepod.
I am really psyched about the idea of this same setup on my laptop, which is running an Echo Indigo IO. However, when Ableton has the Echo enabled as it's audio input, TS-Audio-to-MIDI reports an error, as if control of the card is locked.
Is the ability to have a single audio input visible to two apps at once an ASIO 2.0 feature that isn't properly supported by all devices? I've tried updating the Echo drivers, then replacing them with ASIO4All... Now I'm kind of out of ideas, and this throws a MAJOR wrench in the works.
Any ideas? Thanks!
|
Luteman
Max Output Level: -84 dBFS
- Total Posts : 335
- Joined: 2006/12/04 05:48:05
- Location: UK
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/02 11:14:22
(permalink)
Is the ability to have a single audio input visible to two apps at once an ASIO 2.0 feature that isn't properly supported by all devices? This is supposedly a feature of ASIO 2.0. I would suggest posing your question to Echo tech support, if you haven't already.
Chris
SONAR Platinum, Windows 7 Pro 64bit, Core2Quad Q6600, 8GB, 2 x SSD, M-Audio Fast Track Ultra, M-Audio Axiom 61, Behringer FCB1010 MIDI pedalboard, Stephen Haddock 8-course lute, some guitars, a mandolin and a bass
|
darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/02 11:43:21
(permalink)
Good recommendation - thanks.
|
strungdown
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 573
- Joined: 2007/04/12 13:15:26
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/02 12:17:11
(permalink)
You need what is called "multi client ASIO support". Here's the catch: some drivers/cards can do it, some can't.
|
darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/03 09:21:50
(permalink)
You need what is called "multi client ASIO support". Here's the catch: some drivers/cards can do it, some can't. Thanks. Yes, I stumbled on this terminology while Googling last night. (Unfortunately I'd already written Echo tech support.) So multi-client isn't a given when a device is spec'd as ASIO 2.0? Is there some fuzzy marketing going on? The best I can tell is that the Echo is gimped with regards to multi-client, and they're trying to fake it on the output side by way of a little mixer app that present multiple virtual outputs to clients, then mixes them. Unfortunately this does no good on the input side, and the support person that's written me back doesn't seem to understand the difference. 
|
strungdown
Max Output Level: -79 dBFS
- Total Posts : 573
- Joined: 2007/04/12 13:15:26
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/03 12:27:10
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: darc
You need what is called "multi client ASIO support". Here's the catch: some drivers/cards can do it, some can't.
Thanks. Yes, I stumbled on this terminology while Googling last night. (Unfortunately I'd already written Echo tech support.) So multi-client isn't a given when a device is spec'd as ASIO 2.0? Is there some fuzzy marketing going on?
The best I can tell is that the Echo is gimped with regards to multi-client, and they're trying to fake it on the output side by way of a little mixer app that present multiple virtual outputs to clients, then mixes them. Unfortunately this does no good on the input side, and the support person that's written me back doesn't seem to understand the difference.
Unfortunately, as far as I can tell, multi-client support is not part of the ASIO specification.
|
darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 10:25:48
(permalink)
So... I've since tested all the different drivers recommended by Echo, to no avail. I also tested a friend's Creative Labs Soundblaster Audigy 2 ZS Notebook (wow, that's a mouthful) card. This one's really weird: it was perfectly willing to route sound to two apps at once, but Audio2MIDI, for whatever bizarre reason, was actually seeing the output levels from the other application! Which had some weird consequences, like if you trimmed volume in the other app, your signal in Audio2MIDI would fade, and if Audio2MIDI triggered a note, you'd get a hellstorm of new notes, basically MIDI feedback.
So I had to resort to velcroing the NI Audio Kontrol to the top of my laptop, which is kind of weird since the AK weighs more than the laptop. Does anyone know of any other PCI Audio cards that I can test for this rig? I'd really like to shave some weight/bulk off here. Thanks!
|
danp2000
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 494
- Joined: 2004/01/30 14:20:15
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 13:00:46
(permalink)
Have you tried using the WDM drivers instead? Multi-client is part of the WDM spec and should work fine with all audio cards.
|
darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 13:29:41
(permalink)
Have you tried using the WDM drivers instead? Multi-client is part of the WDM spec and should work fine with all audio cards. Thanks for the recommendation. I did try WDM on the Echo card, but latency immediately spiked into unplayable territory. I don't think it resolved the problem but after all these permutations I've lost track. To be exhaustive I'd have to reinstall every version of their driver and retest, but I'm pretty sure the behavior will be the same across the board. I will have to revisit WDM with the Soundblaster though - assuming it is supported.
|
Jose7822
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10031
- Joined: 2005/11/07 18:59:54
- Location: United States
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 13:40:18
(permalink)
Darc,
Did you lower the latency on the Echo card before switching to WDM drivers and re-profiling the card in Sonar?
WDM drivers work differently than ASIO. After profiling your card, you can change the latency by going to Options::Audio::General Tab in Sonar. There, at the bottom of the Audio Options screen, you'll see the latency bar where you can make latency adjustments. If the minimum latency is still too high then you'll have to go into your Echo's Control Panel, lower the buffer size/latency and re-profile the card again...then go back into Sonar (Options::Audio::General Tab) and see what the minimum latency is. IOW, you have to re-profile your audo interface everytime you change the buffer size/latency on your Echo card's Control Panel (WDM only).
HTH
|
darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 15:13:41
(permalink)
Thanks Jose, that may indeed help. I'm not actually running Sonar on this rig, but I remember that I was a little fast and loose when I tested WDM. I basically switched over, saw the performance hit, and decided to stick with ASIO. So I'll test more thoroughly tonight and report back later this week. (Though it now occurs to me that Audio2MIDI - a pretty DIY looking little application - doesn't actually let you select WDM vs. ASIO, it just presents a generic "Indigo IO" instance. So hard to say whether switching WDM in the other app - Ableton Live - will help.)
post edited by darc - 2008/04/07 15:40:41
|
warble
Max Output Level: -89 dBFS
- Total Posts : 55
- Joined: 2005/02/21 22:22:26
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 15:22:18
(permalink)
In my experience, WDM seems to work better than ASIO on Echo interfaces - at least in Sonar. I can alleviate clicks, pops and otherwise and get latency in a usable range for soft-synths (8.7ms and maybe a little lower).
|
darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 15:24:39
(permalink)
In my experience, WDM seems to work better than ASIO on Echo interfaces - at least in Sonar. I can alleviate clicks, pops and otherwise and get latency in a usable range for soft-synths (8.7ms and maybe a little lower). Good to know no matter how this turns out. Thanks.
|
rcrees
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 392
- Joined: 2005/04/28 10:36:01
- Location: New York City
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/07 15:26:32
(permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jose7822
Darc,
Did you lower the latency on the Echo card before switching to WDM drivers and re-profiling the card in Sonar?
WDM drivers work differently than ASIO. After profiling your card, you can change the latency by going to Options::Audio::General Tab in Sonar. There, at the bottom of the Audio Options screen, you'll see the latency bar where you can make latency adjustments. If the minimum latency is still too high then you'll have to go into your Echo's Control Panel, lower the buffer size/latency and re-profile the card again...then go back into Sonar (Options::Audio::General Tab) and see what the minimum latency is. IOW, you have to re-profile your audo interface everytime you change the buffer size/latency on your Echo card's Control Panel (WDM only).
HTH
Very interesting. I had the same problem with WDM... latency a little looses even at the lowest setting, however, my M-Audio Audiophiles' setting was not set at the lowest when I tested. I'm going to try this tonight.
http://www.rcreesmusic.com Dell XPS 8300, Intel Core i7, 8gigs ram, AMD Radeon 6670, Two SATA II 500gig hard drives, one 250gig external USB drive, Focusrite Scarlett 2i2, M-Audio Keystation 61es, Windows 7 Home Premium, SONAR X3 Producer, many sample libraries including EastWest PLAYx64 Gold Complete, RA, Stormdrum and Choirs
|
darc
Max Output Level: -75 dBFS
- Total Posts : 764
- Joined: 2004/01/19 14:39:05
- Status: offline
RE: Q for ASIO experts - 1 input to 2 apps simultaneously?
2008/04/14 11:16:36
(permalink)
Hiya all. I've been MIA for a couple of days, but in case anyone is still curious about this... I tried switching to DirectX/ MME drivers in Ableton Live, which did free up the ASIO driver (apparently the only one recognized) for AudioToMIDI, but unfortunately the Echo MME driver performed terribly under Live. Like 50ms terribly. So I tried the same strategy with the Creative Labs card, and eventually, to my surprise, it worked out. (The configuration tools for the Creative product are very limited, and frankly, I'm not even certain what I did to improve matters.) The Creative card isn't as nice as the Echo, but I think I can limp by with this solution for the time being.
Someone also recommended I try some virtual audio routing apps ("Jack for Windows") so I may try to get the Echo fired up from a different angle, after I've taken some time to regroup and... you know... play a little music.
|