Johnbee58
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Quantization
X3 user.
I've taken notice that on the past several projects I've done the Quantization feature doesn't work as well as it used to. It doesn't matter where I have the setting, it either over corrects or throws everything off. I always choose the note value of the shortest note in the clip, but it never seems to be the correct one. I try tripplets and dotted. No joy. I figure I must've accidentally changed a default setting because it used to work much better. Any help would be appreciated.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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Zargg
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 10:52:48
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Hi. Make sure you have set snap to, or snap by correctly. That could make a difference.
All the best.
Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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Zargg
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 10:53:57
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Ken Nilsen ZarggBBZWin 10 Pro X64, Cakewalk by Bandlab, SPlat X64, AMD AM3+ fx-8320, 16Gb RAM, RME Ucx (+ ARC), Tascam FW 1884, M-Audio Keystation 61es, *AKAI MPK Pro 25, *Softube Console1, Alesis DM6 USB, Maschine MkII Laptop setup: Win 10 X64, i5 2.4ghz, 8gb RAM, 320gb 7200 RPM HD, Focusrite Solo, + *
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chuckebaby
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 12:59:34
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☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/07/22 14:47:16
quantizing has never been my favorite feature.
But try doing small chunks of notes VS larger sections.
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Johnbee58
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 16:30:24
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Thanks Zargg & Chuck. I have to check those snap settings. I use Snap to grid, but the others I really wasn't clear on. It would make sense that if you have it set for triplets the system would fight you if you're using anything other. @Chuck-That is my usual modus operandi, to quantize small clips, but thanks for the feedback.  John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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sharke
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 16:45:31
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☄ Helpfulby Zargg 2017/07/22 16:55:40
Snap settings have nothing to do with quantizing (unless you're using the timing tool). If you're quantizing from the quantize dialog, the quantize value you set in there will be applied regardless of your snap setting.
Similarly, you shouldn't be basing your quantize value on the smallest note length in the passage. You need to figure out where you want each note to go on a note by note basis. For example, if your shortest note is a 32nd and you quantize at 32nd notes, what if all of your notes were intended to be exactly on the beat? Depending on how sloppy your performance was, some of the notes might end up a 32nd note away from the beat - not what you want.
So you have to sit and look at your notes and see how you can group them. For example you might have a passage of 16th notes, so lasso them and quantize them to 16th's. But then you might have a passage of 8th note triplets that will need to be quantized accordingly. And then after that a couple of quarter notes which need 1/4 note quantizing. If you lassoed the whole lot and quantized them to 16th notes, then some of the 1/4 and 8th triplet notes might end up quantized wrongly.
Of course if the piece is rhythmically simple, for example a synth bass part consisting of entirely 8th notes, your job is easy. For everything else, a little work is required.
Don't forget to experiment with quantize percentages too. If you don't want everything too mechanical then try setting the percentage to 90 or 95% instead of 100. And also check out the timing tool. It takes the snap setting as the quantize value. You select a note (or notes) and drag upwards with the timing tool - the notes will move toward the snap setting gradually, so you can quantize them as strongly or as weakly as you like.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Johnbee58
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 20:58:11
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Wow, Sharke! If there's that much work involved, what's the point of having a quantize function?! All I know is that on my past 6 projects it hasn't been working as well as it was prior when I could just push the quantize button and they would all lightly nudge into place where they belong. I slice my clips up in very small pieces and I try to perform them so that I don't need much correction. They might just be a teeny bit off the mark and quantize throws them all way off. I know the program isn't a mind reader, but something must've changed somewhere. Is there anything in Preferences that sets up what the quantize feature does? It never USED to be this hard. Thanks for taking the time to give me the details though. I really appreciate it. John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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interpolated
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 21:25:24
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Quantization is tool not a fix really. However it can help get a general tightening up of MIDI data. Humanising the performance of notes by making not quite perfect is good.
You can have MIDI snap to certain quantise setting in each MIDI track you record too. This could be timing, a key and modal or both. Really is a labyrinth until you get used to it.
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sharke
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/22 22:57:03
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Johnbee58
Wow, Sharke! If there's that much work involved, what's the point of having a quantize function?! All I know is that on my past 6 projects it hasn't been working as well as it was prior when I could just push the quantize button and they would all lightly nudge into place where they belong. I slice my clips up in very small pieces and I try to perform them so that I don't need much correction. They might just be a teeny bit off the mark and quantize throws them all way off. I know the program isn't a mind reader, but something must've changed somewhere. Is there anything in Preferences that sets up what the quantize feature does? It never USED to be this hard.
Thanks for taking the time to give me the details though. I really appreciate it.
John B.
Absolutely nothing has changed with quantization - it's an exceedingly simple algorithm which does exactly what it says on the tin. Whatever quantization value you select, it will snap every note to the nearest line on that grid. I wouldn't be surprised if the quantize algorithm is almost identical in every DAW. Whenever the result of a quantize doesn't sound as expected, you know that the wrong quantize value has been chosen for at least some of the notes. It's as simple as that. Some material lends itself to quick and easy quantization, other material doesn't and will always need closer attention. The quantize function, as you say, isn't a mind reader. It's easy enough to botch the performance of a 16th note so that it ends up closer to the next 16th division than the one you intended, especially at higher tempos. If you quantize that passage to 16th notes, it's going to sound wrong. Similarly, you may have triplets or dotted notes in the passage which require independent attention because a "one size fits all" quantize value is going to snap them to the wrong position. If you took one of those pieces that you quantized in the past when it worked perfectly, and quantized it with your current version of Sonar, it would give exactly the same result. If you took the piece that you're having trouble quantizing now, and quantized it in that earlier version of Sonar, it would mess things up in exactly the same way. I'd be surprised if Sonar has even touched the quantize code even once in the past 10 years.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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chuckebaby
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 00:47:38
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sharke
Snap settings have nothing to do with quantizing (unless you're using the timing tool). If you're quantizing from the quantize dialog, the quantize value you set in there will be applied regardless of your snap setting.
Are you sure about that ? I thought Quantizing followed global snap settings. Duration is set in the drop down and duration is engaged by ticking the box. But quantizing has to be snapping to something, surely its the snap value. 
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Johnbee58
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 01:40:29
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sharke
Whenever the result of a quantize doesn't sound as expected, you know that the wrong quantize value has been chosen for at least some of the notes. It's as simple as that. Some material lends itself to quick and easy quantization, other material doesn't and will always need closer attention.
If you took one of those pieces that you quantized in the past when it worked perfectly, and quantized it with your current version of Sonar, it would give exactly the same result. If you took the piece that you're having trouble quantizing now, and quantized it in that earlier version of Sonar, it would mess things up in exactly the same way. I'd be surprised if Sonar has even touched the quantize code even once in the past 10 years.
Well then I guess I'm writing more complicated rhythm patterns lately. Maybe that's a good thing.  John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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sharke
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 05:51:24
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chuckebaby
sharke
Snap settings have nothing to do with quantizing (unless you're using the timing tool). If you're quantizing from the quantize dialog, the quantize value you set in there will be applied regardless of your snap setting.
Are you sure about that ? I thought Quantizing followed global snap settings.
Duration is set in the drop down and duration is engaged by ticking the box.
But quantizing has to be snapping to something, surely its the snap value.
The perhaps confusingly termed "Duration" is basically the snap value. It has to be set to something in that dialog, and whatever it's set to will override the global snap setting. Not to be confused with the "note duration" option underneath - that signifies whether or not you want the note lengths quantized along with the note start times. So to recap: "Resolution" is the grid that you'll be snapping to, and underneath that you have options to specify whether you'll be snapping note start times, note durations, or both. None of the above is affected by the global snap setting.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Johnbee58
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 13:11:59
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Well, tried all the suggestions. No joy, so it will remain a mystery as to what I once was doing right and what I'm now doing wrong and my projects will continue to take longer to produce because I constantly will have to go in a "fine tune" this myself with almost every measure. ???????????????????????????????????????????? Sometimes we just hit unexplainable roadblocks, especially in the software world. Thanks all for trying to help. I truly appreciate your efforts. John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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chuckebaby
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 13:47:17
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john,
is there any swing in this song ?
I know personally the ones I have had the most trouble quantizing are swing tracks.
Normal beat (on beat/off beat) data seems to snap very nicely but swing beats seem to have a mind of their own.
You know what I mean by swing beats ?
PS- the dog in your avatar reminds me of my dog when it was a puppy.
I have a Golden Doddle (Half golden retriever/ half Poodle).
Windows 8.1 X64 Sonar Platinum x64 Custom built: Asrock z97 1150 - Intel I7 4790k - 16GB corsair DDR3 1600 - PNY SSD 220GBFocusrite Saffire 18I8 - Mackie Control
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Johnbee58
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 13:53:21
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chuckebaby
john,
is there any swing in this song ?
I know personally the ones I have had the most trouble quantizing are swing tracks.
Normal beat (on beat/off beat) data seems to snap very nicely but swing beats seem to have a mind of their own.
You know what I mean by swing beats ?
PS- the dog in your avatar reminds me of my dog when it was a puppy.
I have a Golden Doddle (Half golden retriever/ half Poodle).
You know, I think you hit it. Most of my newer stuff has swing beats and it never occurred to me, but you have a point. That's probably what it is. Thanks. At least you solved the mystery. Now if anybody can suggest a better way to quantize swing beats............ John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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chuckebaby
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 13:59:12
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there is an option in quantize settings to set the strength of the swing, but im going to be honest here.. I've never had good luck with it . Swing beats are tough for me. I set a real low resolution like 1/32 and hope for the best. You also might have good luck setting your snap to grid to 1/32 for SB and moving them in small chunks. Hope this helps. Good luck
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sharke
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 14:00:05
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Johnbee58
chuckebaby
john,
is there any swing in this song ?
I know personally the ones I have had the most trouble quantizing are swing tracks.
Normal beat (on beat/off beat) data seems to snap very nicely but swing beats seem to have a mind of their own.
You know what I mean by swing beats ?
PS- the dog in your avatar reminds me of my dog when it was a puppy.
I have a Golden Doddle (Half golden retriever/ half Poodle).
You know, I think you hit it. Most of my newer stuff has swing beats and it never occurred to me, but you have a point. That's probably what it is. Thanks. At least you solved the mystery. Now if anybody can suggest a better way to quantize swing beats............
John B.
There is a swing setting, experiment with that. It defaults at 50% (no swing).
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Johnbee58
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Re: Quantization
2017/07/23 18:07:56
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Thanks so much, guys. I looked back on my last 4 projects and they were ALL swing beats (Toontrack EZ Drummer 2 presets). They're all completed now so not much point revisiting them, but I will remember the suggestion(s) for net time. John B.
Lenovo Core i5 4460 Desktop PC (Windows 8 64 bit), Focusrite Scarlett 6i6, Nektar LX61 Keyboard MIDI Controller, Avantone Pro CV-12 tube condenser microphone, JBL LSR308 8" active monitor speakers. Cakewalk by Bandlab, Reason 7, NI Session Strings Pro, NI Strummed Acoustic Guitar, Miroslav Philharmonic, Auturia DX7 V, Garritan JABB 3, EZ Keys, EZ Drummer. "I will create music the way I want to whether a million people are listening or no one is listening." Dan Fogelberg, Singer/Songwriter-1951-2007
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