Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1

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fawlty
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2011/09/29 08:02:02 (permalink)

Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1

First post here, so if it's in the wrong area - sorry!
 
Anyway, I'm using Sonar X1B and have been trying to create a 'loop':
 
I have a wav file which I have mastered to peak at no more than -0.3db.
 
When I create a 'loop' from this file (doule-click to get into 'loop construction' area and then save) the resulting loop clips at around 2db when played back in the main area of Sonar.
 
Strangely, if I play the loop in the preview pane it appears to be fine, peaking at -0.3db.
 
Both the non-looped and looped wav appear to sound the same, but the inconsistency in the levels outlined concerns me. Is this simply a quirk with Sonar?
 
I look forward to hearing from you.
 

[fawlty]

DAW: sonar x1c, 64-bit 
OS: win 7, 64-bit
PC: i5-760, 2.8 ghz, 8gb ram
AUDIO: cwalk ua-1g  
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    Splat
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 11:32:25 (permalink)
    First things first - please upgrade to X1C.

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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    fawlty
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 13:03:58 (permalink)
    Thanks for your reply... good point, updated to X1c - unfortunately, no change to the above situation.

    [fawlty]

    DAW: sonar x1c, 64-bit 
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    #3
    Splat
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 13:33:03 (permalink)
    Second thing please update your footer here (e.g. See my footer).
    Sorry should have said that earlier.

    Cheers.

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
    #4
    fawlty
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 13:41:28 (permalink)
    Thanks - done!

    [fawlty]

    DAW: sonar x1c, 64-bit 
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    Splat
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 14:10:32 (permalink)
    Footer - Sonar = X1? 64 bit or 32 bit? X1C? :)
     
    Cheers.
     
    (... and don't mention the war....)

    Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed.
    @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

    Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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    brundlefly
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 14:51:27 (permalink)
    I don't use the Loop Construction view much, but I just checked it out, and it appears that if you start playback with the Spacebar and by clicking on the play button in the loop construction view at the same time, you can end up with two streams going out together causing the peak amplitude to increase by 6dB. I don't know if this is intended, but you can avoid it by muting the track before opening the LC view.


    You might also want to double-check which bus your LC view is set to use in Options.

    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
    Win10, I7-6700K @ 4.0GHz, 24GB DDR4, 2TB HDD, 32GB SSD Cache, GeForce GTX 750Ti, 2x 24" 16:10 IPS Monitors
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    perfectprint
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 15:01:01 (permalink)
    i would check the output for the preview bus in loop construction (under options) and also Show the Gain Envelope (under Slice) to see if it has been raised. if the preview bus is going straight to your soundcards outputs, it may be bypassing any plugins on the master bus and if the volume envelope of the loop has been raised, that would explain why it sounds loud enough in the preview, but too loud in the session. or i could be way off.

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    fawlty
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/29 17:29:11 (permalink)
    Thanks for your replies... tried muting the track and then creating a loop, but to no avail - not sure how to find the bus for the loop construction. No plug-ins are involved on any of the tracks or master bus.  
     
    Not sure about the preview pane level/bus, as if I play the non-looped wav within the project it's fine, I only get the 2db spike once it's looped. So - I assume - the loops construction is doing something.
     
    Interestingly (?) I have created seamless loops with Sonar before which worked perfectly, but it seems to almost be pot luck - some will work, some won't! 
     
    Sig updated.
     
    Cheers!

    [fawlty]

    DAW: sonar x1c, 64-bit 
    OS: win 7, 64-bit
    PC: i5-760, 2.8 ghz, 8gb ram
    AUDIO: cwalk ua-1g  
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    fawlty
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/30 05:10:20 (permalink)
     
    Well - after spending too many hours to mention - I'm pretty close to giving up...
     
    It appears to me that once a wav file is 'groove clipped', the only way to retain its looping properties is to save it via the Loop Construction area, but in doing so ALL effects are bypassed.
     
    I say this, as I tried to apply a limiter to the groove clip - to force it no to 'clip' on the meter, and then locked it before saving, but these choices were not saved!
     
    As I said earlier, the 2db clipping that appears, may simply be a graphical Sonar glitch - are the meters in Sonar to be trusted?! Or, does anyone use a third-party meter to ensure that their tracks at the correct/intended level?
     
    I should mention that I'm a Sonar X1 'newbie', having never used Sonar before - could there be something really obvious going wrong?
     
    Thanks again! 
     
       
     
     

    [fawlty]

    DAW: sonar x1c, 64-bit 
    OS: win 7, 64-bit
    PC: i5-760, 2.8 ghz, 8gb ram
    AUDIO: cwalk ua-1g  
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    brundlefly
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/30 12:28:43 (permalink)
    As I mentioned, the preview bus setting for the LC view is under Options. Definitely check that.

    2dB is a weird error. I might suspect something to do with mono/stereo interleave or pan law settings or something, but that would tend to give you discrepancies of 3dB or 6dB.

    The meters in SONAR are usually right on in my experience, and unexpected levels are usually due to routing or FX settings. Is it possible you have a non-zero input Gain set in the track header, or maybe changed the output volume in offset mode (shortcut O) at some point?



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    fawlty
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/30 14:40:14 (permalink)
    Thanks, brundlefly - will check on the preview bus.
     
    ... unexpected levels are usually due to routing or FX settings. <-- Perhaps there's some hidden routing happening that I'm unaware of - will review. Fx shouldn't be an issue as the file is a wav and there are no fx selected in the project.
     
    Is it possible you have a non-zero input Gain set in the track header, or maybe changed the output volume in offset mode (shortcut O) at some point? <-- to be honest, I'm not sure what this means! Time to 'google'!
     
    Thanks again for the pointers.
     

    [fawlty]

    DAW: sonar x1c, 64-bit 
    OS: win 7, 64-bit
    PC: i5-760, 2.8 ghz, 8gb ram
    AUDIO: cwalk ua-1g  
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    brundlefly
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/30 17:13:06 (permalink)

    I'm not sure what this means! Time to 'google'!



    I liked this description of Offset Mode:


    http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2361832


    Gain adjusts the level of the audio clip coming into the track. If you were to set it to -2dB, it would lower the output level by that amount when playing the track, but probably would not affect the level coming from the Loop Construction view directly to Master bus.

    Just trying to figure out where you might have a -2B adjustment between the original clip and the output, making LC view seem like it is 2dB too hot by comparison. 

    You might try importing that clip into a new project created from the default Normal template, and see if you can reproduce the problem there.  I can't, so I'm thinking the issue is project-specific somehow.

    Also, what if any changes are you making to it in LC view, other than enabling looping?



    SONAR Platinum x64, 2x MOTU 2408/PCIe-424  (24-bit, 48kHz)
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    #13
    fawlty
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/30 18:00:33 (permalink)
    Got it!
     
    The problem was the Loop Construction area...
     
    Beside the 'loop' button there's another button named 'no slice' - I noticed that when I clicked 'loop' the 'no slice' changed to '1/8 note'. Simply by changing this back to 'no slice' aloowed the loop to be saved as it should have been, so no more clipping!
     
    Thanks again, brundlefly - thanks to your info, I looked a lot more closely at the LC view!
     
     
     
     

    [fawlty]

    DAW: sonar x1c, 64-bit 
    OS: win 7, 64-bit
    PC: i5-760, 2.8 ghz, 8gb ram
    AUDIO: cwalk ua-1g  
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    brundlefly
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    Re:Question - Loop Construction Levels in Sonar X1 2011/09/30 18:15:06 (permalink)
    Groovy. I wondered if some adjustment in LC might be causing slices to overlap slightly, causing amplitude changes at the boundaries or something like that.

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