sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Question about effect returns and reverb
I've never been clear about something, at least about "standard practice" when it comes to effect returns and reverb. Let's say a delay bus in place, as well as a few types of reverb. Now I know it's standard practice to use reverb buses as common reverb for multiple tracks. But what about when you're also using, for example, delay buses in the same way? Let's say you have a synth track with a reverb send. You also have a delay send on the track. You're sending the dry signal to the reverb and the delay buses separately. So the signal to the delay bus is going to end up without reverb on it. You want this delayed signal to sound like it's in the same space as the source track, so you make a send from the delay bus to the same reverb bus you used for the source track. At least this is what I do. But what happens when the source track has multiple reverb sends? You might be sending a little to a room reverb and a little to a hall reverb. The delay send, however, goes to a delay bus which may be used by other tracks. You could make the same two reverb sends from the delay track, but what if this is not what you want for the other tracks using it? Is this when it's time to forget about shared delay sends and either create a delay bus that's exclusively for that track, or just insert individual instance of the delay on the track itself without using sends? Not sure how other people approach this.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/23 05:21:44
(permalink)
I'm sure the common answer will be - it depends. An option which might be of benefit would be to direct the outputs of your reverb busses to yet another bus and send that to the delay (or vice versa). But, it depends(!) on what else is feeding the reverbs. Yet another option would be to place your delay/reverb in series in the same Fx bin. you can change the order to get either delayed reverb or reverb'ed delay. But neither of these options caters for your scenario where only some of your tracks need this global treatment. In a busy mix these concerns may not turn into a problem due to masking etc, but in a sparse mix a need for finer control would be important. (A sparse mix would be a good case for separate instances of your Fx due to a lower CPU/Ram overhead)
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/23 13:32:21
(permalink)
It depends :-) This is one of those times when dropping a reverb or delay in on the source track rather than on a bus comes in handy. For example, I might have a single "main" room reverb on a bus. Then create a track for recording guitar, and I want a delay and spring-style reverb on that track only. So I add the relevant delay and reverb plugs to that track, but might also create a send to the main room reverb bus as well just to make everything sound like it was recorded in the same acoustic space. Needs a bit of care because it's adding reverb to reverb, but works.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/23 15:20:52
(permalink)
IS THIS A STEREO EFFECT, OR A MONO EFFECT?
|
codamedia
Max Output Level: -67 dBFS
- Total Posts : 1185
- Joined: 2005/01/24 09:58:10
- Location: Winnipeg Canada
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 11:18:31
(permalink)
I'm a big fan of common delays and reverbs. My song templates have 2 delay bus tracks (a short and a long) and 3 reverb bus tracks (short, long, plate). All tracks have the ability to send to these bus tracks as needed. This is just old school mixing and for me I can accomplish at least 95% of what I am after with this setup. If I have a track that needs a special effect path... then I'll set that up as needed. I will usually have one or two tracks like this on a project... but nothing I can really pre-define into the template.
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! Desktop: Win 7 Pro 64 Bit , ASUS MB w/Intel Chipset, INTEL Q9300 Quad Core, 2.5 GHz, 8 GB RAM, ATI 5450 Video Laptop: Windows 7 Pro, i5, 8 Gig Ram Hardware: Presonus FP10 (Firepod), FaderPort, M-Audio Axiom 49, Mackie 1202 VLZ, POD X3 Live, Variax 600, etc... etc...
|
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5694
- Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
- Location: Richmond Virginia USA
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 11:42:11
(permalink)
It depends. Just piling on. :-P
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 15:24:24
(permalink)
Yeah I figured I'd get "it depends." I guess it just bothers me a little that sometimes my neat and tidy practice of using common effect buses, which appeals to my sense of efficiency, doesn't always work as needed. I like to keep things simple, which obviously doesn't apply to every situation.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
sausy1981
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 385
- Joined: 2013/12/13 14:22:32
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 18:02:52
(permalink)
I always thought that if you send a vocal to a reverb buss and a delay buss, and the reverb buss is to the left of the delay buss, then the reverb send is on top and the delay send is underneath in the sends section of the track, I thought that some of the vocal is sent via the send to the reverb and returned with the reverb to the track then the vocal with the reverb is sent via the delay send to the delay buss and returned with with the delay on the vocal which had reverb on it to the track, thus you have the reverb feeding the delay. Was I wrong to think this, and is each send a dry send?
|
gswitz
Max Output Level: -18.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 5694
- Joined: 2007/06/16 07:17:14
- Location: Richmond Virginia USA
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 18:10:08
(permalink)
Messy only lasts until the final bounce. Then you start all fresh and clean on the next one.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
|
TheMaartian
Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2774
- Joined: 2015/05/21 18:30:52
- Location: Flagstaff, AZ
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 19:08:43
(permalink)
sausy1981 I always thought that if you send a vocal to a reverb buss and a delay buss, and the reverb buss is to the left of the delay buss, then the reverb send is on top and the delay send is underneath in the sends section of the track, I thought that some of the vocal is sent via the send to the reverb and returned with the reverb to the track then the vocal with the reverb is sent via the delay send to the delay buss and returned with with the delay on the vocal which had reverb on it to the track, thus you have the reverb feeding the delay. Was I wrong to think this, and is each send a dry send?
As near as I can figure, Track sends are all dry (parallel) and not chained (serial). Consider: https://www.cakewalk.com/...mp;help=Mixing.07.html
Intel i7 3.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, 2 TB HD Win10 Home 64-bit Tascam US-16x08 Studio One 4 Pro Notion 6 Melodyne 4 Studio Acoustica 7 Guitar Pro 7 PreSonus FaderPort Nektar P6 M-Audio BX8 D2 Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro NI K9U XLN AK, AD2 AAS VS-2, GS-2, VA-2, EP-4, CP-2, OD Toontrack SD3, EZK
|
sausy1981
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 385
- Joined: 2013/12/13 14:22:32
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 19:31:37
(permalink)
The graphic only shows one send, you could have the signal coming back from that send and going back out to another send before it hits the buss. Can we get confirmation from cakewalk about this?
|
TheMaartian
Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2774
- Joined: 2015/05/21 18:30:52
- Location: Flagstaff, AZ
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 19:41:18
(permalink)
All the way back to the Project5 days:
Intel i7 3.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, 2 TB HD Win10 Home 64-bit Tascam US-16x08 Studio One 4 Pro Notion 6 Melodyne 4 Studio Acoustica 7 Guitar Pro 7 PreSonus FaderPort Nektar P6 M-Audio BX8 D2 Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro NI K9U XLN AK, AD2 AAS VS-2, GS-2, VA-2, EP-4, CP-2, OD Toontrack SD3, EZK
|
sausy1981
Max Output Level: -83 dBFS
- Total Posts : 385
- Joined: 2013/12/13 14:22:32
- Location: Dublin, Ireland
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 19:49:02
(permalink)
Yeah That Diagram is clear enough, but it makes no sense to me to have sends in parallel, I always thought that sends and returns were in series. I have to think of a way to test this out. Thanks Maartian,
|
TheMaartian
Max Output Level: -47.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2774
- Joined: 2015/05/21 18:30:52
- Location: Flagstaff, AZ
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/24 21:56:02
(permalink)
☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/07/26 19:17:37
Seems to me that if they were in series, you'd be stuck. If you want them in series, couldn't you just buss it that way?
Intel i7 3.4GHz, 16 GB RAM, 2 TB HD Win10 Home 64-bit Tascam US-16x08 Studio One 4 Pro Notion 6 Melodyne 4 Studio Acoustica 7 Guitar Pro 7 PreSonus FaderPort Nektar P6 M-Audio BX8 D2 Beyerdynamic DT 880 Pro NI K9U XLN AK, AD2 AAS VS-2, GS-2, VA-2, EP-4, CP-2, OD Toontrack SD3, EZK
|
batsbrew
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10037
- Joined: 2007/06/07 16:02:32
- Location: SL,UT
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/25 11:14:54
(permalink)
stereo vs mono requires different approaches make sure you cover all those bases as well.
|
tlw
Max Output Level: -49.5 dBFS
- Total Posts : 2567
- Joined: 2008/10/11 22:06:32
- Location: West Midlands, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/26 17:47:06
(permalink)
sausy1981 I always thought that if you send a vocal to a reverb buss and a delay buss, and the reverb buss is to the left of the delay buss, then the reverb send is on top and the delay send is underneath in the sends section of the track, I thought that some of the vocal is sent via the send to the reverb and returned with the reverb to the track then the vocal with the reverb is sent via the delay send to the delay buss and returned with with the delay on the vocal which had reverb on it to the track, thus you have the reverb feeding the delay. Was I wrong to think this, and is each send a dry send?
All sends on a track are independent of each other. If a send is routed to a bus then whatever is on that bus does not get routed back to the track the send is on. The bus outputs to wherever the bus output is set to, usually the master bus by default. If sends returned to the original track then quite a lot of routing would result in the original track's gain ramping up more and more as buses are added. It would also cause problems if sends are used to set up multiple monitor mixes if whatever is sent ends up back in the original tracks. Let's say you've three musicians, each wanting a different monitor mix. Not just different levels, but differing reverbs or eq or compression as well. So you set up each track with three pre-fader sends and point each send at a separate bus. On those buses you put the different eqs, dynamics etc then route each bus to a different output to the interface and on to the musician's headphones. You, in the control room, are listening to the master bus output. If those busses returned their processed contents to the tracks all kinds of strange things would happen. Not least of which would be a rapid buildup of gain and volume on the master bus as you'd have set up a bunch of feedback loops.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
|
Bristol_Jonesey
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 16775
- Joined: 2007/10/08 15:41:17
- Location: Bristol, UK
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/27 08:06:01
(permalink)
Just think of a Send as a copy of the original audio. And tlw is 100% correct - all sends are completely independent of each other and only get routed to where their output is routed.
CbB, Platinum, 64 bit throughoutCustom built i7 3930, 32Gb RAM, 2 x 1Tb Internal HDD, 1 x 1TB system SSD (Win 7), 1 x 500Gb system SSD (Win 10), 2 x 1Tb External HDD's, Dual boot Win 7 & Win 10 64 Bit, Saffire Pro 26, ISA One, Adam P11A,
|
AT
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 10654
- Joined: 2004/01/09 10:42:46
- Location: TeXaS
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/07/27 11:42:59
(permalink)
You can step in murky, confusing waters here. Typically, I'll add a delay on the FX/PC bin, say, for main vocals. Then ship the vocals off through the vocal buss which has the main reverb. Backing vocals will get their own FX bin delay or more reverb if they need it (they are backing vocals, after all) but still go through the vocals buss. Just using that matrix keeps things simple. If I feel I need to break that mental chain I can do it. And remember, you can route sends to sends. I've been doing VO work and usually have the music mixed before vocals. I run all the tracks and sends going to the master buss and route them to a "music" buss, except the VO which continues going to master buss direct. Makes it easy to get the relative volumes balanced and a means to vol envelope the two sources. @
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
|
Amine Belkhouche
Max Output Level: -88 dBFS
- Total Posts : 142
- Joined: 2015/06/01 04:46:52
- Status: offline
Re: Question about effect returns and reverb
2015/08/01 14:55:25
(permalink)
Ultimately, use your ears to see if it sounds good. It was already mentioned, in a denser mix, it would probably be difficult to discern that level of subtlety. I am working on a mix right now, and I have a common delay bus and that is also being sent to the common reverb. I wanted the delay to have the room sound. It worked and it sounded good, so I stuck with it. It was also already mentioned that you could get away with placing a delay plug-in with the same preset (if that's what you want) on multiple source tracks and then sending that signal to as many reverb busses as you want. If CPU ever becomes problematic, just freeze. I'll say the common reverb is a guideline that will come up more consistently in these sorts of discussion, but this seems like one of those cases whereby if it sounds good, it is good.
|