Helpful ReplyQuestion about effect returns and reverb

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sharke
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2015/07/23 00:09:59 (permalink)

Question about effect returns and reverb

I've never been clear about something, at least about "standard practice" when it comes to effect returns and reverb. 
 
Let's say a delay bus in place, as well as a few types of reverb. 
 
Now I know it's standard practice to use reverb buses as common reverb for multiple tracks. But what about when you're also using, for example, delay buses in the same way? 
 
Let's say you have a synth track with a reverb send. You also have a delay send on the track. You're sending the dry signal to the reverb and the delay buses separately. So the signal to the delay bus is going to end up without reverb on it. You want this delayed signal to sound like it's in the same space as the source track, so you make a send from the delay bus to the same reverb bus you used for the source track. At least this is what I do. 
 
But what happens when the source track has multiple reverb sends? You might be sending a little to a room reverb and a little to a hall reverb. The delay send, however, goes to a delay bus which may be used by other tracks. You could make the same two reverb sends from the delay track, but what if this is not what you want for the other tracks using it? Is this when it's time to forget about shared delay sends and either create a delay bus that's exclusively for that track, or just insert individual instance of the delay on the track itself without using sends? Not sure how other people approach this. 

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/23 05:21:44 (permalink)
I'm sure the  common answer will be - it depends.
 
An option which might be of benefit would be to direct the outputs of your reverb busses to yet another bus and send that to the delay (or vice versa). But, it depends(!) on what else is feeding the reverbs.
 
Yet another option would be to place your delay/reverb in series in the same Fx bin. you can change the order to get either delayed reverb or reverb'ed delay.
 
But neither of these options caters for your scenario where only some of your tracks need this global treatment.
 
In a busy mix these concerns may not turn into a problem due to masking etc, but in a sparse mix a need for finer control would be important.
 
(A sparse mix would be a good case for separate instances of your Fx due to a lower CPU/Ram overhead)

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tlw
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/23 13:32:21 (permalink)
It depends :-)
 
This is one of those times when dropping a reverb or delay in on the source track rather than on a bus comes in handy.
 
For example, I might have a single "main" room reverb on a bus. Then create a track for recording guitar, and I want a delay and spring-style reverb on that track only. So I add the relevant delay and reverb plugs to that track, but might also create a send to the main room reverb bus as well just to make everything sound like it was recorded in the same acoustic space. Needs a bit of care because it's adding reverb to reverb, but works. 

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batsbrew
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/23 15:20:52 (permalink)
IS THIS A STEREO EFFECT, OR A MONO EFFECT?
 

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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 11:18:31 (permalink)
I'm a big fan of common delays and reverbs. My song templates have 2 delay bus tracks (a short and a long) and 3 reverb bus tracks (short, long, plate). All tracks have the ability to send to these bus tracks as needed. This is just old school mixing and for me I can accomplish at least 95% of what I am after with this setup.
 
If I have a track that needs a special effect path... then I'll set that up as needed. I will usually have one or two tracks like this on a project... but nothing I can really pre-define into the template.

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gswitz
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 11:42:11 (permalink)
It depends. Just piling on. :-P

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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sharke
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 15:24:24 (permalink)
Yeah I figured I'd get "it depends." I guess it just bothers me a little that sometimes my neat and tidy practice of using common effect buses, which appeals to my sense of efficiency, doesn't always work as needed. I like to keep things simple, which obviously doesn't apply to every situation.

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sausy1981
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 18:02:52 (permalink)
I always thought that if you send a vocal to a reverb buss and a delay buss, and the reverb buss is to the left of the delay buss, then the reverb send is on top and the delay send is underneath in the sends section of the track, I thought that some of the vocal is sent via the send to the reverb and returned with the reverb to the track then the vocal with the reverb is sent via the delay send to the delay buss and returned with with the delay on the vocal which had reverb on it to the track, thus you have the reverb feeding the delay. Was I wrong to think this, and is each send a dry send?
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gswitz
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 18:10:08 (permalink)
Messy only lasts until the final bounce.
 
Then you start all fresh and clean on the next one.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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TheMaartian
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 19:08:43 (permalink)
sausy1981
I always thought that if you send a vocal to a reverb buss and a delay buss, and the reverb buss is to the left of the delay buss, then the reverb send is on top and the delay send is underneath in the sends section of the track, I thought that some of the vocal is sent via the send to the reverb and returned with the reverb to the track then the vocal with the reverb is sent via the delay send to the delay buss and returned with with the delay on the vocal which had reverb on it to the track, thus you have the reverb feeding the delay. Was I wrong to think this, and is each send a dry send?

As near as I can figure, Track sends are all dry (parallel) and not chained (serial). Consider:
 
https://www.cakewalk.com/...mp;help=Mixing.07.html

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sausy1981
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 19:31:37 (permalink)
The graphic only shows one send, you could have the signal coming back from that send and going back out to another send before it hits the buss. Can we get confirmation from cakewalk about this?
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TheMaartian
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 19:41:18 (permalink)
All the way back to the Project5 days:
 


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sausy1981
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 19:49:02 (permalink)
Yeah That Diagram is clear enough, but it makes no sense to me to have sends in parallel, I always thought that sends and returns were in series. I have to think of a way to test this out.
Thanks Maartian,
 
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TheMaartian
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/24 21:56:02 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby tlw 2015/07/26 19:17:37
Seems to me that if they were in series, you'd be stuck. If you want them in series, couldn't you just buss it that way?

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batsbrew
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/25 11:14:54 (permalink)
stereo vs mono
 
requires different approaches
 
make sure you cover all those bases as well.

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tlw
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/26 17:47:06 (permalink)
sausy1981
I always thought that if you send a vocal to a reverb buss and a delay buss, and the reverb buss is to the left of the delay buss, then the reverb send is on top and the delay send is underneath in the sends section of the track, I thought that some of the vocal is sent via the send to the reverb and returned with the reverb to the track then the vocal with the reverb is sent via the delay send to the delay buss and returned with with the delay on the vocal which had reverb on it to the track, thus you have the reverb feeding the delay. Was I wrong to think this, and is each send a dry send?


All sends on a track are independent of each other. If a send is routed to a bus then whatever is on that bus does not get routed back to the track the send is on. The bus outputs to wherever the bus output is set to, usually the master bus by default. If sends returned to the original track then quite a lot of routing would result in the original track's gain ramping up more and more as buses are added.

It would also cause problems if sends are used to set up multiple monitor mixes if whatever is sent ends up back in the original tracks. Let's say you've three musicians, each wanting a different monitor mix. Not just different levels, but differing reverbs or eq or compression as well. So you set up each track with three pre-fader sends and point each send at a separate bus. On those buses you put the different eqs, dynamics etc then route each bus to a different output to the interface and on to the musician's headphones.

You, in the control room, are listening to the master bus output.

If those busses returned their processed contents to the tracks all kinds of strange things would happen. Not least of which would be a rapid buildup of gain and volume on the master bus as you'd have set up a bunch of feedback loops.

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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/27 08:06:01 (permalink)
Just think of a Send as a copy of the original audio.
 
And tlw is 100% correct - all sends are completely independent of each other and only get routed to where their output is routed.

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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/07/27 11:42:59 (permalink)
You can step in murky, confusing waters here.  Typically, I'll add a delay on the FX/PC bin, say, for main vocals.  Then ship the vocals off through the vocal buss which has the main reverb.  Backing vocals will get their own FX bin delay or more reverb if they need it (they are backing vocals, after all) but still go through the vocals buss.  Just using that matrix keeps things simple.  If I feel I need to break that mental chain I can do it.
 
And remember, you can route sends to sends.  I've been doing  VO work and usually have the music mixed before vocals.  I run all the tracks and sends going to the master buss and route them to a "music" buss, except the VO which continues going to master buss direct.  Makes it easy to get the relative volumes balanced and a means to vol envelope the two sources.
 
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Amine Belkhouche
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Re: Question about effect returns and reverb 2015/08/01 14:55:25 (permalink)
Ultimately, use your ears to see if it sounds good. It was already mentioned, in a denser mix, it would probably be difficult to discern that level of subtlety. I am working on a mix right now, and I have a common delay bus and that is also being sent to the common reverb. I wanted the delay to have the room sound. It worked and it sounded good, so I stuck with it. It was also already mentioned that you could get away with placing a delay plug-in with the same preset (if that's what you want) on multiple source tracks and then sending that signal to as many reverb busses as you want. If CPU ever becomes problematic, just freeze. I'll say the common reverb is a guideline that will come up more consistently in these sorts of discussion, but this seems like one of those cases whereby if it sounds good, it is good.
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