Bub 
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Question about mic's and mic preamps.
I have an old Peavey Celebrity Series condenser mic. It was the best one they made at the time, but it's now going on 20+ years old. Sometimes I get great recordings out of it and other times I get an effect that sounds similar to singing in to a tin can. I get the same results with different mics so I'm not convinced it's a problem with the Peavey. Honestly, I hear no difference between my old stage mic and the high end Peavey. I'm running an M-Audio Fast Track Ultra and was wondering if this was something to do with the pre's in it? Even with phantom power on, you have to turn the gain up almost all the way on the FTU and I was wondering if that had something to do with it maybe? The FTU get's it's power from a tiny little 9VDC power pack which makes me wonder if it's delivering reliable 48VDC power. Would I hear a big enough difference in a new mic to justify spending the money? Should I get a dedicated mic preamp and run that in to the FTU? Could it be the room I'm recording in causing the tin can effect sometimes (not all the time)? I was looking at the ART Pro MPA II for a mic preamp and possibly a Blue Bluebird mic. Btw ... if anyone is looking at a Blue Bluebird, Musician's Friend is kind of ripping people off on this mic. Sweetwater is offering the same mic for the same price as MF except it comes with a nice pop screen and shock mount. Any thoughts? Thanks, Bub Edit: Fixed typo.
post edited by Bub - 2011/05/24 02:17:37
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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dlogan
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/24 09:54:39
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Hey Bub
I have the FTU also, and I have the Blue Bluebird mic. To answer some of your questions...
* When I go straight into the FTU with any of my condensor mics (the Bluebird, a couple of RODEs, an AT) I do have to raise the gain to around 80% (4:00 position or so). But it's still a pretty clean preamp and shouldn't be causing the "tin can" problem you're describing. I think that is probably your mic.
* I looked at that ART preamp too a few years back. I ended up getting a Presonus Eureka. I'm not sure that's what I'd buy if I was going to do it over, but I can't say I regretted the purchase. The Blue Bluebird > Presonus Eureka > FTU has worked very well for me. The Bluebird is a very nice, versatile mic.
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dlogan
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/24 09:59:30
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Oh and my $0.02 is upgrade the mic before the preamp. I think you get more bang for your buck as far as a noticeable difference. The FTU has pretty good preamps and there have been recordings I've posted on the songs forum where I got lazy and just plugged the mic into the FTU without going through the preamp, and I've got compliments on how great the signal chain was. If you had a different interface with crappy preamps on the mic inputs, I'd say otherwise.
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batsbrew
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/24 10:45:56
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mic is king.
preamp is queen.
you know how the queen can make the king do what she wants?
but there first has to be a king.
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Beagle
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/24 15:15:24
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I'd definitely upgrade the mic first.
I have an ART TPS II, which is similar but not quite as good as the PRO MPA. I really like the ART. but you won't get "clean" from it since it's a starved plate tube design. you'll get "warmth" and varying degrees of that can be dialed in, but it won't be just "clean"
if you want just clean then go with something like the Grace 101m or the True Systems P-solo or maybe even the FMR Audio RNP. price point there on those are all right around $500-$600.
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Bub
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/24 22:44:35
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Hi guys, Thanks for the input. I'm going to go with the Blue Bluebird mic but I'm not sure what I'm going to do about the pre-amp. I'd like to get an ART Pro VLA II Dual Channel Compressor but there's no mic preamp. Seems they only make the preamp/compressor combo in single channel. Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Beagle
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 09:35:21
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DeeringAmps
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 09:48:27
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Beagle,
I'm probably out of line here, but "starved plate" designs have never been my cup of tea.
I'm not questioning that the "color" your adding is not what you want, or "bad" in any way.
I'm just not sure I would call it "warm".
Had one of the older dual pres from ART years ago, it was good for the price point, just not
high voltage ''warm".
I'd save for a more traditional valve pre, or buy a good solid state unit at that price point.
Just my .02
Tom
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dlogan
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 10:29:23
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Bub
Thanks for the input. I'm going to go with the Blue Bluebird mic Good call - you'll like it I'm sure! It's nice looking, too. I get lots of compliments on it when people come to record.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 12:05:16
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I agree... The "tin-can" issue is not the result of the FTU's mic preamps. Whilst I wouldn't call the FTU's preamps world-class, they're not going to impart a dramatic change in character. If there's no audible difference between a stage mic and a decent condenser, that would suggest the condenser is in bad shape... or the recording/monitoring environment is problematic (standing waves, reflections, etc). A quality mic is always a good investment...
post edited by Jim Roseberry - 2011/05/25 12:34:37
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Beagle
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 12:56:14
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DeeringAmps
Beagle,
I'm probably out of line here, but "starved plate" designs have never been my cup of tea.
I'm not questioning that the "color" your adding is not what you want, or "bad" in any way.
I'm just not sure I would call it "warm".
Had one of the older dual pres from ART years ago, it was good for the price point, just not
high voltage ''warm".
I'd save for a more traditional valve pre, or buy a good solid state unit at that price point.
Just my .02
Tom
no real argument here, Tom. "warm" is a description the pre manufacturers use even for the starved plate designs (whether accurate or not). but I tend to agree with you that the starved plate designs aren't really "warm" as much as they are "colored" or maybe a better term is "distorted" but that seems to be more of an "undesirable" term for a vocal preamp. true high voltage tube preamps are certainly better for "warmth" - no arguments at all! I don't think that's what Bub is looking for though, since he is pretty intent on the ART systems in his posts (and the real valve pres are typically a lot more expensive than what he's looking at!).
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Bub
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 14:08:35
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Beagle
I don't think that's what Bub is looking for though, since he is pretty intent on the ART systems in his posts (and the real valve pres are typically a lot more expensive than what he's looking at!). Yeah, I've always liked ART's products and price is a determining factor unfortunately. I have the first guitar effects unit they made, it's so old it's not even listed on their web site in the discontinued section. I have a $600 budget and the mic is going to take up $300 of that so I'm kind of limited.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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batsbrew
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 14:11:13
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warmth
is really distortion
when talking about starved plate.
guitarists love 'warmth'
LOL
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Beagle
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 14:36:06
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Bub
Beagle
I don't think that's what Bub is looking for though, since he is pretty intent on the ART systems in his posts (and the real valve pres are typically a lot more expensive than what he's looking at!). Yeah, I've always liked ART's products and price is a determining factor unfortunately. I have the first guitar effects unit they made, it's so old it's not even listed on their web site in the discontinued section.
I have a $600 budget and the mic is going to take up $300 of that so I'm kind of limited.
then maybe go with the TPS? It's only $180 new, 2 channels of starved plate design with "variable valve voicing" or V3 allows you to "dial in" the amount of "distortion/warmth" of tube path in the signal. the TPS also has a built in limiter that can be switched on or off depending on the dial settings. but it is not controllable by ratio, threshhold or attack, it has settings you don't even see just based on the dial you choose. but for the price and the type of pre it is, I think it's well worth it.
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drewfx1
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 14:56:56
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With any starved plate design like the ART, you're essentially talking about a SS preamp with an added tube distortion stage. And it stands to reason you're paying extra for that tube stage, so I'd make sure you really want it. Otherwise I'd say you're better off just getting a clean SS preamp.
And I'd also question whether an inexpensive HW compressor is worth it (if it's only for recording purposes).
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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dlogan
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/25 15:42:11
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drewfx1
And I'd also question whether an inexpensive HW compressor is worth it (if it's only for recording purposes).
I've of the same mindset on this. Yes, there is high end stuff that is better than most plugins. But I typically don't apply compression when tracking, and then do all my compression during mix 'in the box'.
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Bub
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/26 03:16:37
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"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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NW Smith
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/27 09:33:57
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+1 on the Art TPSII, I have one and it's been very versatile and useful for me.
For clean sound, you might want to check out a M-Audio DMP3. A lot of people on different forums like this pre-amp. I have one - and it gives you a lot of gain without coloring the sound and it's quiet as far as noise. This is a 2 channel unit that sells for around $150.00.
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SvenArne
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/27 12:50:55
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What in the world is a Peavey Celebrity series condenser mic? I've never heard of it and Google only turns up pages with headlines like: "peavey celebrity topless prize viagra"...
Is it really an old high-end mic? If you can't tell the difference between that and a (dynamic) stage mic, I think it's time to try some alternatives. The pre's in the FTU should suffice for now.
Sven
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Bub
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/27 15:25:45
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HI Sven, It is a verrrrry old mic. :) It's a Peavey Celebrity Series EC-11 condenser mic purchased in the early/mid 80's. It came in an all aluminum locking case with heavy foam cushioning inside. A friend of mine gave it to me when he got out of the music business along with a 70's Gibson Standard (one of those gold colored ones) and a 130 Watt Tube driven Peavey Heritage Amp 2 x 12 combo with built in phaser. Oh why did I ever get rid of the guitar and amp? :( Oh, I remember, the amp weighed about 300 pounds and the guitar was right handed, I play left handed. :) He said it was a high end Peavey condenser but I've never been able to find any info on it to see how far up line it is. The only thing I found online confirming the mic's existence is some guy has a schematic for it for sale. It's louder and a little clearer than my old stage mic, but I really can't tell much of a difference in quality. I'm worried I'll spend $300 on a new mic and not see a significant improvement, that's why I'm leaning toward a tube pre-amp to help warm up the sound. That ART TPS II looks interesting, especially for the price. What makes me leery is, I've read some bad reviews on it. I read a couple of reviews saying they couldn't tell the difference between an ART MPA II and an LA 610 side by side.
post edited by Bub - 2011/05/27 15:28:50
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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SvenArne
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/27 18:21:51
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Must be super rare! I could only find one mention of a Peavey EC-11 on Google and that was an expired Ebay entry .
Bub
I read a couple of reviews saying they couldn't tell the difference between an ART MPA II and an LA 610 side by side.
I've no doubt that would be true in a lot of real world scenarios. Matter of fact, you might insert any two 'x' and 'y' preamps and the statement would still apply in many situations. Go find some preamp shootout threads on Gearslutz.com and listen for yourself! Watch the veteran slutz backpedal as their favorite file in a blind test is revealed to be a cheapo. The differences are subtle, and after having been through two mic pre "upgrades" since I started, it's the last place I would go to try and improve my sound. My advice is to try some new mics. Chances are that unless you push the ART into saturation (at which point it doesn't sound nice or even useful at all IMO) it won't sound radically different from your interface pre's. In fact it will probably have less headroom, so your recordings may well suffer from such an "upgrade". Sven
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Bub
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/27 22:44:49
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Musician's Friend is having a 15% off sale this weekend. I guess it's time to make a decision.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Zuma
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/28 09:21:46
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For $300 I'd get the Bluebird no doubt. That is an awesome condenser. I don't own one yet but will. Awhile back I was shopping for a condenser and very stupidly chose an AKG Perception 220 over the Bluebird to save a little money. That was a big mistake and I'm kicking myself in the arse for it. Blue makes awesome mics. I would go with the Bluebird or Spark for the $200-$300 range. The one I want bad for vox though is the Dragon Fly.
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/28 13:44:33
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Musician's Friend is having a 15% off sale this weekend. I guess it's time to make a decision. I'd opt for the mic first... But if/when you're looking for a nice affordable preamp, I'd recommend checking out the GAP Pre-73. It's a Neve clone... The GAP Pre-73 is one of the few inexpensive preamps worth buying. Most inexpensive preamps aren't a substantial (if any) upgrade over the preamps in the FTU.
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Bub
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/29 02:42:56
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Hi Jim ... Thanks for the info. I checked out some reviews and the results seem to be split down the middle between the GAP Pre-73 and the ART MPA II. Some say the MPA II does a little better job on acoustic. BTW ... the GAP Pre-73 is discontinued and replaced by the GAP Pre-73 Mark II. The ART MPA II appears to have been discontinued as well and has been replaced with the ART MPA II Reference Series. They upgraded all the connectors to gold plate and changed the tubes to 7025's. Probably because the first thing everyone did, according to everything I read, was rip out the factory tubes on the original MPA II and replaced them with Tung Sol's. After reading a ton of reviews and listening to some sound samples posted by real world users I'm going with: ART Pro MPA II Reference Series Preamp Blue Bluebird Condenser Mic When I get everything I'll do some sample recordings and post. A friend of mine is coming out to visit this summer and he's a fantastic vocalist. Can't wait to record him on this new setup. Thanks for all the input!
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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JonD
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/29 04:04:46
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Jim Roseberry
Musician's Friend is having a 15% off sale this weekend. I guess it's time to make a decision.
I'd opt for the mic first...
But if/when you're looking for a nice affordable preamp, I'd recommend checking out the GAP Pre-73.
It's a Neve clone...
The GAP Pre-73 is one of the few inexpensive preamps worth buying. Most inexpensive preamps aren't a substantial (if any) upgrade over the preamps in the FTU.
Unfortunately, the old version of the GAP-73 has been discontinued and is sold out everywhere; and the new version hasn't hit the stores yet (This is a hot unit - demand far outweighing supply - so no one seems to know exactly when they'll hit the shelves. Regardless, I suspect the first batch will be sold out in a matter of days... assuming the pre-orders haven't already accomplished that).
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IK Obi
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/05/29 15:13:05
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batsbrew
mic is king.
preamp is queen.
you know how the queen can make the king do what she wants?
but there first has to be a king.
Thats a great analogy!
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JonD
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/06/02 03:37:45
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For anyone who's interested:
American Musical Supply and ZZounds now has the Golden Age Pre73 MKII in stock (as of this writing).
I'm curious to hear what folks think about it -- particularly, if the "improvements" in the Mk II model are worth the slight price increase.
SonarPlat/CWbBL, Win 10 Pro, i7 2600K, Asus P8Z68 Deluxe, 16GB DDR3, Radeon HD5450, TC Electronic Impact Twin, Kawai MP11 Piano, Event ALP Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro, Too Many Plugins, My lucky hat.
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Middleman
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/06/02 10:48:08
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You have probably already made your decision but I would have directed you take a different direction. Used mic and preamp.
AT4060 can be had for around $650
Daking Mic Pre One can be had for around $600
Pushed your budget a bit but would be a couple of leagues above the Bluebird and ART sonically.
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JonD
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Re:Question about mic's and mic preamps.
2011/06/02 13:55:25
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Middleman
You have probably already made your decision but I would have directed you take a different direction. Used mic and preamp.
AT4060 can be had for around $650
Daking Mic Pre One can be had for around $600
Pushed your budget a bit but would be a couple of leagues above the Bluebird and ART sonically.
Middleman, do you if know if the hi-Z input on the Daking can be used at the same time as the mic pre? Otherwise, I suppose the disadvantage would be he'd have only one channel (instead of two with the ART). If one (really nice) channel is fine by him, my vote for a budget pre would be the True P-Solo. Also in that price range is the ISA One (though I don't have any personal experience with it).
SonarPlat/CWbBL, Win 10 Pro, i7 2600K, Asus P8Z68 Deluxe, 16GB DDR3, Radeon HD5450, TC Electronic Impact Twin, Kawai MP11 Piano, Event ALP Monitors, Beyerdynamic DT770 Pro, Too Many Plugins, My lucky hat.
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