Question about plugins and track freezing

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gtrpastor
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2013/03/02 16:52:43 (permalink)

Question about plugins and track freezing

Hi. I'm new to X2 and I'm having a bit of a problem...

I just did a recording in which I started using guitar plugins--various amps and effects--for the first time. Everything seemed to be working until I tried to mix everything down. First, nothing worked. It seemed to take forever to mix down, and the final product was nothing. When I returned to Sonar after this, the tracks wouldn't play, there was just a small popping sound at the beginning and then nothing. I tracked it down to one of the plugins, a guitar effect. It was causing the track meter to hit over 9db. The only way to get it to play was to restart Sonar. 

I finally solved the issue by freezing the track. This seemed to work as the project would then mix down. But then the other guitar track, using different plugins, wasn't playing (just that one track). I tried to mix it down again twice. Once the same thing happened, and once everything came out as it should. 

This is my question: Is it standard practice, when using a lot of plugins on one track, to tweak everything and freeze the track before mixing down? Or are there just some plugins that don't play nice? 

BTW - When playing the tracks together (15 tracks) they all play fine and the CPU is only at about 25% in one core and about 10% in the other three cores. 

I'd appreciate any advice from some veteran users. Thanks.

Here are my specs:
Windows 7 Home Premium SP1 64-bit
Intel Core 2 Quad Q8200 2.4 Ghz
8 GB RAM
M-Audio Delta 2496 PCI
Internal HDD
Sonar Studio X2a
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13 Replies Related Threads

    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/02 19:45:41 (permalink)
    It depends.

    Define how you're 'mixing down'

    Are you doing an export or doing a bounce.

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    gtrpastor
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/02 22:57:12 (permalink)
    I'm exporting 15 tracks. 

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/03 08:50:02 (permalink)
    Mixing down..... in Sonar means to select the tracks by highlighting them as a group or specific ones and selecting the EXPORT option. This will send the tracks selected to a wave file that should sound exactly like it plays in Sonar.

    Freezing or bouncing the CPU heavy or problematic plugs and synths is a good method to get them out of the project during the "mix down" without choking the machine. 

    If certain synths or FX are causing issues, you should try to resolve that problem before continuing to use them. 

    Don't forget ... you can also freeze or apply the FX to the tracks. Doing so "prints" the FX to the wave and removes the FX from the project. It's destructive in nature but you end up with a wave in the track that sounds exactly like it did on playback..... and it lightens the CUP load.   Before you apply this level of pre-processing, you may wish to do a "SAVE AS" and save the project to a new name..... and then keep one for back up in case something doesn't work right, and then feel free to APPLY FX to the tracks and let it remove the plugs when it's finished. You will end up with a totally audio project with no plugs or synths in the tracks and Sonar handles audio very easily.  just a suggestion. 

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    Paul P
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/03 08:58:19 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker :

    "Don't forget ... you can also freeze or apply the FX to the tracks. Doing so "prints" the FX to the wave and removes the FX from the project. It's destructive in nature but you end up with a wave in the track that sounds exactly like it did on playback..... and it lightens the CUP load."

    It's not really destructive, in that the original audio is not affected. You can always get it back by unfreezing.
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    DigitalBoston
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/03 10:13:10 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker


    Mixing down..... in Sonar means to select the tracks by highlighting them as a group or specific ones and selecting the EXPORT option. This will send the tracks selected to a wave file that should sound exactly like it plays in Sonar.

    Freezing or bouncing the CPU heavy or problematic plugs and synths is a good method to get them out of the project during the "mix down" without choking the machine. 

    If certain synths or FX are causing issues, you should try to resolve that problem before continuing to use them. 

    Don't forget ... you can also freeze or apply the FX to the tracks. Doing so "prints" the FX to the wave and removes the FX from the project. It's destructive in nature but you end up with a wave in the track that sounds exactly like it did on playback..... and it lightens the CUP load.   Before you apply this level of pre-processing, you may wish to do a "SAVE AS" and save the project to a new name..... and then keep one for back up in case something doesn't work right, and then feel free to APPLY FX to the tracks and let it remove the plugs when it's finished. You will end up with a totally audio project with no plugs or synths in the tracks and Sonar handles audio very easily.  just a suggestion. 
    if you open the demo projects there mostly done like this,poke around the demo's and see what they did.
     
     i bounce as a rule when using heavy plugs . or v'vocal
     
    #6
    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/03 18:21:54 (permalink)
    Let me clarify:

    Freezing is reversible 100% 

    Bouncing to track renders a new audio track and still leaves the original midi/audio-synth-FX untouched. 

    Applying FX to a track is reversible up to the point you close the program after saving the project. At that point the FX has been destructively applied. No going back. 


    Depending on the track, the plug, the synth, or the FX, I will sometimes bounce to track, other times I will freeze, and many times I will APPLY EFFECT.... it all just depends. 

    Having 3 options at hand is good.

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    Paul P
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/03 22:43:58 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker :

    "Applying FX to a track is reversible up to the point you close the program after saving the project. At that point the FX has been destructively applied. No going back."

    Why would anything be destructively modified at this point ?

    It is my understanding that the source is never modified in Sonar.
    #8
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/04 06:08:47 (permalink)
    They are once you apply Fx to them by freezing the track.

    FWIW, I never freeze tracks - it's so much easier and flexible just to freeze the synth

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    Paul P
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/04 11:56:03 (permalink)
    I can see this for bouncing (and deleting the source) but I don't see how freezing a track, effects or not, save or not, destroys anything in the original ?
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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/04 14:54:06 (permalink)
    freezing does not modify the source and is reversible. Freezing is reversible even after the project is closed and re-opened.   Bouncing is similar to freezing ...the difference being is the original tracks remain untouched and a new track is created with everything applied to the wave track that results form the bounce....  

    HOWEVER.. if you have an audio track and have a plug or two in the FX bin and use the APPLY AUDIO FX option, the original track is overwritten with the FX applied and the original wave is gone.  At the same time, to prevent doubling the effect, all the plugs and FX are removed from the bin since they have been printed to the wave. 
    You can still back up and use the EDIT / UNDO function to revert back to before the apply BUT.... only until you save the project and close Sonar. When you close Sonar, the undo file is dumped and now.... you can not go back. It is permanent. 

    Perhaps the original wave is still in the wave folder but you would now have to go back into it and search it manually to find the file or files which made up the original track and then manually drag them to a new track and place them in that track in perfect alignment to where they were to start with.... I say perhaps because I do not know for a fact that the original un-effected files are saved there and not over written. 

    For all intents and purposes, the APPLY FX function is permanent and done destructively to the original wave. 

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    Paul P
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/04 15:26:50 (permalink)
    Guitarhacker, thanks for the clarification.

    I've just learned about the Process > Apply Effect > Audio Effects/etc functions which are indeed destructive.

    I didn't realize in the above that "apply fx" meant something more than just 'using' them.
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    gtrpastor
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/05 11:07:26 (permalink)
    Thanks, everyone, for the insight and info. I understand more about freezing than I did before. It is a decent workaround for the problem I've been having. 

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Question about plugins and track freezing 2013/03/05 15:11:09 (permalink)
    I tend to use the APPLY EFFECT when I am working with melodyne. I use melodyne editor (ME) to fix something in the vocal track or an instrument track such as a wrong note..... I'm not really wanting to keep the "bad take" so after I fix it with ME and listen to it to be 100% sure it's right.... I use the APPLY EFFECT and waaa laaa, it prints the fix to the wave and removes the plug ME... I then click SAVE. 

    My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

    MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW   
    Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface


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