sharke
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Question about sends and phase
Let's say I have a dry bass signal on a track, and I want to send a little of it to a bus that has a bass amp on to mix a little grunge into it. Is it customary to flip the phase on the send track? I'm a little in the dark regarding issues of phase. The reason I ask is because if I do the above with Mark Studio on the amp bus, I get a drastically different sound if I flip the phase switch on the amp. Also, if I use the same technique but with the Aphex aural exciter, sometimes the results sound a little phasey. One weird thing I've noticed doing this technique, is that if I loop a section of the track in question when I first fire up the project, and play back that loop, the first iteration of the loop will sound normal. But when it returns to the start for the second iteration, the phased effect begins, and remains for the duration of that session (i.e. until I close the project and reload it). Not sure how significant this is or if it's just another one of those oddities that happens when looping in Sonar.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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John
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 01:53:43
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I wish I knew what you were asking.
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sharke
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 02:34:53
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Well put it this way: If I just have Mark Studio on a bass track (not a send bus), flipping the phase button (in Mark Bass) has no effect. But if I put it on a send bus and mix it in with the dry bass track, flipping the phase button makes a very drastic change to the sound. I'm just trying to get a better idea of what's going on with that.
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John
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 02:58:00
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Is it a mono track or stereo track?
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sharke
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 03:08:38
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In the case of the bass track, yes both the track and the bus are mono. I forgot to mention that they are both then output to another bus (also mono) for compression and EQ.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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John
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 04:11:37
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There should be no phase on a mono track. I believe you are seeing (or hearing) an artifact of the plugin.
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Razorwit
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 07:05:21
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☄ Helpfulby PopStarWannabe 2013/07/06 15:10:06
Hi Sharke, I'm not sure what John is referring to regarding stereo and mono, but the phase button just flips the positive and negative aspects of the waveform in a track. Easiest way to see this is to take a track with some audio on it, hit the phase button, bounce to a new track and zoom in. You'll get something like the following, where the track on top (in green) is the original and the one on bottom (orange) is the new, phase reversed, track. Notice how every time the waveform goes up on the top track it goes down on the bottom:  If I play those two tracks separately they likely sound the same, but if I play them simultaneously the result will be silence...summing two identical tracks whose phase are exactly reversed results in silence. This is the crux of null testing (a method of finding out if two tracks are the same). The phase button is most commonly used when handling multi-mic'd instruments. For example, when dealing with a top snare mic and a bottom snare mic one of them will pretty much always need to have it's phase flipped. So in your application when you have a single track, with or without a bass amp, and flip the phase you end up not hearing a difference. But if you have a second track that you are playing along with the first track and you flip the phase on one (and only one) of them, you'll hear a big difference. The two are being summed and thus you're hearing the results of an additive process. It's certainly not required/customary to flip the phase when re-amping like that, at least not the way it is with snare drum mics, but it's absolutely something you can try. Sometimes an amp or plugin will affect the sound in a way that brings it out of phase with the original and you'll want to hit that button. Sometimes you'll want to do it to intentionally bring two tracks out of phase with one another, just because it sounds good. Sometimes you'll even want to flip the phase on only one channel of a stereo recording because it changes the sound in particular ways (that's actually a kinda common technique but be careful, it can cause mono compatibility problems). The "required rules" regarding phase, such as they are, are really only for multi mic applications and testing. Anything else is just creative use. Good luck, Dean
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John
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 07:11:04
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If you flip the phase on a mono track there will be no change in the sound. Phase comes into play with stereo.
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gswitz
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 07:23:59
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John, Phase comes into play on mono summing... not just stereo sound. I know you know this, so I'm stating it for clarity for others. If you take a track and 1. route it to a bus, 2. send it to a different bus on which a - you add distortion through an amp sim plugin b - you further distort through a phase flip (I think this phase flip you were doing was on the amp sim not using something trying to be 100% clean flip like a channel tools phase flip or a Vintage Compressor phase flip). c - route output to the same bus as the original track You will get lots of interesting effects. You will probably get a good amount of cancellation of the original signal which should be strong in both the original track and the phase flipped track. So, lots of the original sound will cancel and you will be left with the differences of the two tracks. I like Razorwit's suggestion of bouncing so you can see the wave forms and compare. You can use mono phase flipping to do zero sum cancellation to see what impact certain FX are having. For example, if you want to hear the effect of a console emulator turned up really loudly, you could clone a track and phase flip one of the two tracks, put a console emulator on one of the two tracks and bounce to tracks. Most of the original signal should cancel out. Now, normalize the results and you will have an example of console emulation sound generated on that particular track.
post edited by gswitz - 2013/07/06 08:07:27
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Razorwit
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 07:25:09
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Hi John, Respectfully, that's just not the case. Phase matters every time two tracks are summed, stereo and mono have nothing to do with it. This is why you reverse the phase on one of the mics when micing a snare top and bottom, even though they are mono tracks. This is also why two identical mono tracks will result in silence when one is phase reversed, and why Sharke is hearing a difference when he is summing the original bass track and the new one and hits the phase button on one of them. The number of channels in those tracks has nothing at all to do with it. When you flip the phase of one track in a pair of tracks that are being summed, you will very likely hear a difference, whether stereo or mono. If phase didn't matter on mono tracks you could not null test with mono tracks (this is, of course, not the case). Dean
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Grem
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 07:46:03
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This is great discussion.
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gswitz
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 08:03:49
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Sharke, it occurs to me that if you switch your send to 'pre-fader' you could then slide the volume of the bus with the phase flipped amp sim or the original track's fader up and down to get varying amounts of cancellation vs Amp Sim effect.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 08:35:39
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Can we assume you are speaking about the Mark Bass Studio 1 VST? Or are you speaking of an actual piece of hardware? If I was using a VST and noticed weird phase issues (rather than normal phase issues) I would ask myself if the VST is reporting it's latency properly to SONAR. The timing needs to be reported by the VST so the DAW can use it's PDC effectively. It should be easy to run a few tests and see what is going on with the timing. Send a test tone through there (use something with an easy to spot transient) and see what happens to the timing. One thing to look out for... does the timing change with different patches in the VST? In other words, are some patches problematic while others are fine? One thing you may want to do; embrace the idea that flipping the "polarity" on the *phase* button is a very specific thing. It may or may not be routine to flip that switch... As Dean mentioned, if you are flipping polarity on two identical tracks you will get a full null. If you mix two tracks together where one is an original and the other has been *distorted* than flipping polarity will provide some sort of effect. A lot of signal will be nulled and a lot of signal will not be nulled. What you hear is what you get. The phase issues you are hearing are probably from a slight shift in timing... not a polarity flip flop. So, you can fool around with the polarity switch... it will provide some "effect"... but it has little to do the the phase coherency of your signal. If you are curious about the phase you can run a few tests and check the timing to see if something is slipping. You mentioned loops but you didn't mention a context of what you are comparing it too (mixing it with) when you hear the phase occur. This may be unrelated, but I have seen phase issues appear while looping a "clip" that is not an exact MBT increment. In other words, I have seen loops that are slightly shorter than what the users thinks they are and when they drag out a loop the timing drifts forward. Make sure your loops are a exact match to your grid. Good luck. best regards, mike sharke Let's say I have a dry bass signal on a track, and I want to send a little of it to a bus that has a bass amp on to mix a little grunge into it. Is it customary to flip the phase on the send track? I'm a little in the dark regarding issues of phase. The reason I ask is because if I do the above with Mark Studio on the amp bus, I get a drastically different sound if I flip the phase switch on the amp. Also, if I use the same technique but with the Aphex aural exciter, sometimes the results sound a little phasey. One weird thing I've noticed doing this technique, is that if I loop a section of the track in question when I first fire up the project, and play back that loop, the first iteration of the loop will sound normal. But when it returns to the start for the second iteration, the phased effect begins, and remains for the duration of that session (i.e. until I close the project and reload it). Not sure how significant this is or if it's just another one of those oddities that happens when looping in Sonar.
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Razorwit
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 10:57:24
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Hi Sharke, Incidentally, if you're curious why Mike is using quotes, it's because phase and polarity are two different things. The phase button in Sonar is probably more accurately described as a polarity button (since phase deals with timing). If you're curious a good place to start might be here: http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/polarity_and_phase_explained/ Dean
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gswitz
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 11:02:06
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Thanks Razorwit. I had been using phase and polarity as synonyms.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Razorwit
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 11:15:57
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Hi gswitz, happy to help out. FWIW, while the difference is non-trivial, most places that I've been use phase and polarity roughly interchangeably. In situations where the differences matter the correct meaning can usually be derived from context. Shorter version: calling the button on a pre-amp or board a "phase" button instead of a "polarity" button will generally not raise anyone's eyebrows that I've seen. Dean
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sharke
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 12:44:27
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Thanks for the interesting replies everyone, I'm learning a lot about phase and polarity and I guess I have some experimentation to do. The difference in the sound in the bass track I'm working on is very dramatic. It's a fast moving bass line with alternating octaves, and I have found that with the polarity switch in one position, the lower octave notes sound boomy and much louder than the higher octave notes, wheres with the switch flipped they sound more balanced. Mike: with regards to the looping thing, I did wonder if it was something to do with timing. I'm tempted to blame Sonar here because its loop functionality is anything but watertight...take the widely reported issue of MIDI drift when loops have been playing a while, for example. FWIW the loop in question is an exact MBT increment. It's just weird that the sound changes permanently after one iteration of the loop (until I close and reopen the project), whereas if I don't set any loops at all, the sound won't change.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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bitflipper
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 12:58:06
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To get back to the original question...you might need to flip the polarity when combining direct and miked versions of the same signal. It depends on whether the speaker is in phase with the amplifier's line output or DI box, which it usually is, but isn't guaranteed. What's more likely is that you have to adjust the phase relationship between the two signals because the amplified signal is slightly delayed compared to the direct signal. There is a little latency within the amplifier itself, but most of the delay depends on how far away the microphone was from the speaker. If it was close-miked, e.g. within an inch of the cone, the phase difference won't be noticeable on a bass. It's only if you set the mic back a foot or more from the speaker that phase will become an issue. You've got a lot more room for sloppiness with bass than other instruments, due to the longer wavelengths, but sometimes even a 0.5 ms shift can make an audible difference even on bass. That's equivalent to having the microphone 6 inches from the speaker. If you are combining two separate bass tracks, e.g. two synths/samplers or a synth + real bass guitar, then you'll definitely want to fiddle with the phase (probably not the polarity button though). When I'm experimenting with layering sounds I find it convenient to insert a delay plugin with millisecond resolution (the Sonitus Delay will do this) so I can sweep the delay while listening for the best combination.
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sharke
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 13:37:16
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bitflipper To get back to the original question...you might need to flip the polarity when combining direct and miked versions of the same signal. It depends on whether the speaker is in phase with the amplifier's line output or DI box, which it usually is, but isn't guaranteed. What's more likely is that you have to adjust the phase relationship between the two signals because the amplified signal is slightly delayed compared to the direct signal. There is a little latency within the amplifier itself, but most of the delay depends on how far away the microphone was from the speaker. If it was close-miked, e.g. within an inch of the cone, the phase difference won't be noticeable on a bass. It's only if you set the mic back a foot or more from the speaker that phase will become an issue. You've got a lot more room for sloppiness with bass than other instruments, due to the longer wavelengths, but sometimes even a 0.5 ms shift can make an audible difference even on bass. That's equivalent to having the microphone 6 inches from the speaker. If you are combining two separate bass tracks, e.g. two synths/samplers or a synth + real bass guitar, then you'll definitely want to fiddle with the phase (probably not the polarity button though). When I'm experimenting with layering sounds I find it convenient to insert a delay plugin with millisecond resolution (the Sonitus Delay will do this) so I can sweep the delay while listening for the best combination. Interesting! Can I presume that this talk of mic distances and amp latency applies to an amp/mic sim like Mark Studio too?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Razorwit
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 14:01:24
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sharke Interesting! Can I presume that this talk of mic distances and amp latency applies to an amp/mic sim like Mark Studio too?
Hi Sharke No, not generally. Plugins shouldn't affect the phase relationship of tracks unless PDC isn't working properly. The scenario that Bitflipper is talking about with DI bass and a bass amp follows the same rules as a multi mic setup. That said, some plugs may not play well with Sonar's Plugin Delay Compensation (PDC) and you may need to adjust, but that should be rare and generally indicates that something is broken. Dean
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drewfx1
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 14:16:27
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Even if plugin delay is correctly compensated for, you can still have phase shift due to things as simple as EQ, or a cab simulator or whatever. This is potentially an issue anytime you do parallel processing. If you put Channel Tools after the plugin, you can make small timing adjustments instead of just flipping polarity.
 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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gswitz
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 14:23:32
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I have purchased MAutoAlign and this crazy thing can accurately determine how many feet apart my microphones were, over and over. Now I'm not sure it always makes it sound better to have it line up the signals, but it's super cool imho that it can figure it out.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Eric Beam
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Re: Question about sends and phase
2013/07/06 18:23:34
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You could take advantage of using a DAW. Record the output of the "amp" to a 2nd track. You can now blend, timeshift, & change polarity as needed. No real need to keep it a live realtime process.
post edited by Eric Beam - 2013/07/06 22:06:32
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