Helpful ReplyQuestion for exeperienced engineers!

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mzagas
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2017/09/28 06:37:50 (permalink)

Question for exeperienced engineers!

I'll start off by saying this is not a thread about what's better, looking for some advice from some more experienced people.

I have been getting very into music production and engineering, I have both tried and as reaper and sonar just to get a feel for them both, I think they are both amazing DAW's.

Now what I am asking is I have a little abit of money a month for a subscription. Would you guys recommend going with sonar subscription and use the plug ins that sonar give you access to or the other option is go with reaper and go for the slate everything bundle.

Open to any information or advice on what to choose and everyone thoughts on how sonar plugins go against slate.

The daw of choice isn't so much an issue but just best value for money mainly.

Thanks.
#1
Marshall
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 06:53:45 (permalink)
If you are just getting into music production, I would use what comes with the DAW of your choice for a while. You will be in a far better place to judge what you need once you are really familiar with what is bundled. I don't know Reaper, but Sonar has an amazing array of plugins to keep you going for a long time.

One idea for your extra monthly cash - get a subscription to Groove 3 and learn the tools you already have.
#2
mzagas
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 07:04:02 (permalink)
Thanks for the quick reply,

Yeh, I understand that, how would you say sonar plugins compare to say other third party plug ins?

I'm more amazed at the amount that's available, with sonar you get console emulators, tape, the l-phase multi and eq aswell as the large amount of virtual instruments, even addictive drums.

I guess in a way I like the idea of getting more bang for your buck. Is this normal for higher prices daw's or are sonar just great in that you get your money worths.

Thanks.
#3
cclarry
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 11:31:36 (permalink)
mzagas
Thanks for the quick reply,

Yeh, I understand that, how would you say sonar plugins compare to say other third party plug ins?

I'm more amazed at the amount that's available, with sonar you get console emulators, tape, the l-phase multi and eq aswell as the large amount of virtual instruments, even addictive drums.

I guess in a way I like the idea of getting more bang for your buck. Is this normal for higher prices daw's or are sonar just great in that you get your money worths.

Thanks.


Starting with what's included is always a good idea.  Get familiar with how plugins operate,
and how they effect the sound.  This is always a good starting point.

Most High End DAW's give you plenty to work with.  But I think Sonar excels here, especially 
all that you get with Platinum, which is certainly the "most bang for your buck".


#4
jude77
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 15:40:38 (permalink)
This is just my opinion, but I think Slate plugins sound a bit better than the ones included in SONAR.  But, as Larry said in the above post, see what's available in both packages to compare the "Bang for Buck" factor.  However, I would offer this as a caveat: just because one package offers more plugins than the other doesn't make it the best deal.  In my experience I've found that of the 10 zillion plugins I own I probably use about 15 regularly, so I would encourage to you decide what you need, plugins wise, and then see which package fits your needs. 
 
Good luck with your music!

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#5
abacab
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 16:13:01 (permalink)
Sonar Professional will probably end up costing about the same as Reaper plus the Slate Everything bundle.
 
One difference is that with Sonar, after paying for one year, you own a permanent license for the software.  And you get some good plugins.  Good opportunity to decide what you need.
 
With the Slate deal, you have to keep your membership active.  The plus here is that you do have access to everything, as well as some mixing course video tutorials in the Pro Session Course.
 
IMHO, Sonar plus Slate would be cool!

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#6
DaveClark
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 16:58:44 (permalink)
Hi mzagas,
 
You haven't said anything about your level of experience, your background, etc. nor have you said anything about how you plan to use the tools nor anything about the genre(s) you plan to work in.  Similarly to what jude77 said, your particular "biggest bang for the buck" could easily be completely different than someone else's.
 
If you are a programmer with spare time, for example, then building your own stuff should obtain you the biggest bang for the buck but could also be horribly inefficient.  If you're not a programmer or don't have spare time, this isn't even conceivable as an option.
 
If you plan to perform, then you don't need many if any synths.  If you are into EDM, you'll almost certainly want to have a lot of them if not a couple of very powerful ones, the choice between these two options depending on how you like to work.
 
There are so incredibly many options that it's impossible for anyone to give you a good answer with any real assurance.  Also, you may very well have narrowed down your choices prematurely, but that's also impossible to know without information about your background and goals.
 
If you've just decided to jump in and try a bunch of stuff out, then I would say just get a copy of Computer Music Magazine with a DVD and you'd have a lot of pretty good stuff for almost nothing.  Download evaluation copies of several DAWs and have at it.  Save your extra cash until you really know what you want, otherwise you might well regret having spent so much with so little to show for it.
 
Good luck,
Dave Clark
 
#7
rsinger
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 17:00:42 (permalink)
I recommend learning to use what comes with a DAW before buying additional tools. Can you hear the difference between something like the Quad EQ on its various settings? Can you hear the difference between different EQs? Can you hear the difference between different compressors? If not then there is no need to buy another variation. 
 

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bapu
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 17:18:22 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2017/09/28 21:52:31
An experienced engineer may own far more plugins than are humanly necessary and thus may actually not be the best person to tell you what you need.
 
 
#9
Grem
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 18:55:36 (permalink)
bapu

An experienced engineer may own far more plugins than are humanly necessary and thus may actually not be the best person to tell you what you need.
 
 


Great advice!!

Grem

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Grem
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 19:02:37 (permalink)
rsinger

Can you hear the difference between something like the Quad EQ on its various settings? Can you hear the difference between different EQs? Can you hear the difference between different compressors?



If you can't honestly answer the above questions, don't buy anything yet. Demo all you can to get a start about what you want.

Reaper is a great program for the price. So is Sonar. You will just have to listen and let your ears decide.

Grem

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#11
bapu
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 21:30:03 (permalink)
Grem

Reaper is a great program for the price. 

Although my main squeeze is SONAR I have to say I am truly impressed with the amount of instructional videos that Reaper offers. If I could just get beyond Kenny Gioa's speaking cadences. And... how he says "here" without even describing where "here" is. I wish someone would edit his videos with a yellow highlighted circle to highlight his "here" comments.
 
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DaveClark
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 22:43:16 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/09/28 22:54:10
bapu
An experienced engineer may own far more plugins than are humanly necessary and thus may actually not be the best person to tell you what you need.

 
Although marked as helpful, this is undoubtedly offensive to some engineers, not so much because they are engineers, but because it's so blatantly prejudicial.  What I posted earlier is probably much closer to the truth.
 
DaveClark
There are so incredibly many options that it's impossible for anyone to give you a good answer with any real assurance.  (Emphasis added.)

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bapu
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/28 22:54:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2017/09/29 00:51:27
The beauty of this forum is we can all have different opinions without arguing.
 
Peace Dave.
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cclarry
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 00:56:34 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jude77 2017/09/29 02:31:03
I think both are true.  I have far too many plugins.  Many never
even get a passing on, but stay in the collection.

There are 2 factors....the Engineer, and the plugins...
But a brilliant Engineer can take even the crappiest of plugins and produce
a masterpiece...I liken it to the "Tone is in the fingers" argument...
because a brilliant Guitarist can take a cheapo First Act Guitar, 
and create brilliant sounding material with it...

As with all things it's highly subjective.  But, above all, it's the Engineer
(or player) that ultimately is the "Real" ingredient.


#15
BobF
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 01:34:28 (permalink)
One of the problems with buying a DAW bundled with a buncha plugs is that in a lot of cases the plugs aren't usable in other DAWs.  So if you decide to move to another DAW as your experience and the various DAW options grow, you might have to rebuy plugs too.  It can be a pain even if you don't switch DAWs, but need to use a different one some of your projects.
 
If you purchase plugs separately, you can use them in any DAW you might end up using.  It's nice being able to use the same FX regardless of which DAW you happen to be running ATM.

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jude77
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 02:34:42 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2017/09/29 03:07:29
cclarry
I think both are true.  I have far too many plugins.  Many never
even get a passing on, but stay in the collection.

There are 2 factors....the Engineer, and the plugins...
But a brilliant Engineer can take even the crappiest of plugins and produce
a masterpiece...I liken it to the "Tone is in the fingers" argument...
because a brilliant Guitarist can take a cheapo First Act Guitar, 
and create brilliant sounding material with it...

As with all things it's highly subjective.  But, above all, it's the Engineer
(or player) that ultimately is the "Real" ingredient.


An excellent point.  Give a pro engineer a bag of Sm57's and 58's and he'll give you a pro sounding recording.  Give him SONAR with included plugins, or Reaper with the SLATE everything deal, and he'll give you a pro sounding recording.  I guess in the end it's not which package you buy, but how well you use it. 

You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach.
 
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#17
cclarry
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 03:07:45 (permalink)
jude77
cclarry
I think both are true.  I have far too many plugins.  Many never
even get a passing on, but stay in the collection.

There are 2 factors....the Engineer, and the plugins...
But a brilliant Engineer can take even the crappiest of plugins and produce
a masterpiece...I liken it to the "Tone is in the fingers" argument...
because a brilliant Guitarist can take a cheapo First Act Guitar, 
and create brilliant sounding material with it...

As with all things it's highly subjective.  But, above all, it's the Engineer
(or player) that ultimately is the "Real" ingredient.


An excellent point.  Give a pro engineer a bag of Sm57's and 58's and he'll give you a pro sounding recording.  Give him SONAR with included plugins, or Reaper with the SLATE everything deal, and he'll give you a pro sounding recording.  I guess in the end it's not which package you buy, but how well you use it. 



THIS is spot on!


#18
Fleer
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 05:06:04 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2017/09/29 12:31:22
Would have loved chiming in. But then I'm not experienced. Nor an engineer.

"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
#19
abacab
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 12:42:46 (permalink)
Most of the Cakewalk plugins work in other DAWs, including the Cakewalk and Sonitus branded stuff, except for the Overloud and Nomad Factory plugs.  That is locked to Sonar.

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#20
mudgel
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 12:54:50 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby michaelhanson 2017/09/29 17:22:16
I just had an opportunity to demo the Slate Everything Bundle.
I have all the Waves plugs, Melda, Ozone plus a couple hundred more.

General comment on Slate. Meh! Don't really need them nor see why the fuss.
Now I'm not against Slate as I run a Raven MTi1 and it's great.

The funny thing though is that as I've become more experienced I use less plugins. Why? I'm glad you asked. Because experience has taught me how to get what's going into the box to be the best it can be, so now that I don't have to fix it in the box let alone in the mix or even the master, plugins have less of a place. They still have their place but now I don't fight with them, or put them n just because I have them.

Of course sometimes the job is to fix something but that's a whole other kettle of fish. The beauty is that there's a plugin for everything. But only when you need it.

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Rimshot
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 13:20:50 (permalink)
Sonar has all the bases covered.  For 3rd party, I have added Waves L3, MeldaMultiEQ, MeldaAnalyzer, ToneBooster's Barricade and Sibalence, Kleinghelm meters and compressors, iZotope Neutron Elements, and just recently Ozone Imager. I probably forgot one but these are the ones I use with Sonar the most. Most of these were fairly inexpensive after finding sale prices. 
 

Rimshot 

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michaelhanson
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 17:21:28 (permalink)
mudgel
I just had an opportunity to demo the Slate Everything Bundle.
I have all the Waves plugs, Melda, Ozone plus a couple hundred more.

General comment on Slate. Meh! Don't really need them nor see why the fuss.
Now I'm not against Slate as I run a Raven MTi1 and it's great.

The funny thing though is that as I've become more experienced I use less plugins. Why? I'm glad you asked. Because experience has taught me how to get what's going into the box to be the best it can be, so now that I don't have to fix it in the box let alone in the mix or even the master, plugins have less of a place. They still have their place but now I don't fight with them, or put them n just because I have them.

Of course sometimes the job is to fix something but that's a whole other kettle of fish. The beauty is that there's a plugin for everything. But only when you need it.


Bingo.

Mike

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bapu
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 17:31:30 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2017/09/29 18:35:21
mudgel
The beauty is that there's a plugin for everything. But only when you need it.

Unless I don't own it, in which case I must buy it.
 
Oh heck, I'll buy it anyway.
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gbowling
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 18:03:15 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/09/29 18:25:13
It also depends on "what you do with your DAW?" 
 
For myself, I play in a band that has written, performed, and played for many years. We recorded to tape for years. So our workflow is more similar to the old classic studio in the tape era. We play "basic tracks" to sonar and overdub parts after that. 
 
Pretty much all of our music is "us playing instruments and recording them."  Our writing is all on "instruments," we write by playing guitar or keyboards or some instrument. None of this involves our DAW at all, other than to maybe record some ideas for later reference.
 
This is a much different workflow from someone who does EDM or sequences a lot with midi, groove clips, and the like. It's also much different than someone who writes music via a "score" and produces things from there. Many of these people write using their DAW, putting together the music, moving the arrangements around in the DAW, etc. 
 
So different DAWs are stronger at one style or the other. I know that for our workflow and what we do, Sonar is excellent. I also own Reaper and could do everything there as well, but I prefer Sonar. 
 
If our workflow was different, I'm not sure. I don't do that so I'm not as aware of the issues and comparisons of Sonar vs Reaper for those situations. But it's something worth thinking and studying about. 
 
gabo

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jude77
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 18:23:23 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/09/29 18:25:20
To the OP:
I think you're beginning to see there are a lot of different opinions on how to proceed! 
 
Good luck going forward.

You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach.
 
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yorolpal
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 18:25:17 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/09/29 18:25:50
Welp...I have been engineering for over 30 dang years and, as Bapsi allows, have more plugins than is humanly necessary and IMHO you should just get Sonar Platinum and not buy another thing (well maybe a really good reverb) until you've learned and used everything SPLAT has to offer.  If you can't produce a killer diller project with what's already in SPLAT buying more plugins is probably not gonna help you one tincy bit.

https://soundcloud.com/doghouse-riley/tracks 
https://doghouseriley1.bandcamp.com 
Where you come from is gone...where you thought you were goin to weren't never there...and where you are ain't no good unless you can get away from it.
 
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#27
jude77
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 18:26:41 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2017/09/29 18:34:49
yorolpal
Welp...I have been engineering for over 30 dang years and, as Bapsi allows, have more plugins than is humanly necessary and IMHO you should just get Sonar Platinum and not buy another thing (well maybe a really good reverb) until you've learned and used everything SPLAT has to offer.  If you can't produce a killer diller project with what's already in SPLAT buying more plugins is probably not gonna help you one tincy bit.


Yep. 

You haven't lived until you've taken the Rorschach.
 
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#28
bapu
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Re: Question for exeperienced engineers! 2017/09/29 18:27:24 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby cclarry 2017/09/29 18:34:57
Imagine if myolapl and I were car enthusiasts. I'd need a 4100 car garage. And it would pale in comparison to myolpal's garage.
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