skitch_84
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 480
- Joined: 2012/09/23 07:14:47
- Location: Okayama, Japan
- Status: offline
Question regarding ideal order of plugins
Hello all, question for you all.
I'm building a project template in Sonar with some new plugins I acquired during the recent sales. I plan on using Slate's Virtual Console, Slate's Virtual Mix Rack (EQ and compression), and U-He's Satin Tape Machine for my mixing stage.
My understanding is that the virtual console should be first on every track. You then mix into that, applying EQ and compression where needed. Finally, you use the tape emulation last. My main question is the tape emulation. Would there ever be a reason to use the tape emulation elsewhere in the chain? I've had great success with Satin by adding it to the various buses my instruments are routed to as the last insert in the chain, and then a final instance on full bounce. I'm wondering if any of you have found other creative ways to use it (and I don't mean using the flange or delay effects, just the normal tape saturation).
Thank you!
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
|
Scoot
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
- Total Posts : 875
- Joined: 2007/06/29 13:53:59
- Location: Da Nang, Vietnam
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/10 20:42:40
(permalink)
Last on you chain = Emulation of the final recording to tape
First on your chain = Emulation of recording multi-tracks and then mixing and processing them.
Middle of the chain = Emulation of when you had recorded the multitrack tapes with some effects already applied. For example, you recorded a guitar with it's stomp boxes through it's amp and cab, to tape.
HP ENVY Notebook - 15t-k100 CTO i7 -4510U CPU @ 2.00 GHZ 8gb RAM. Windows 8.1 64bit Full HD Touchscreen Sonar X3 Producer, AAS Complete set, XLN AD Keys and Drums, TH2 Roland Quad Capture, AudioTeckina 3035 Mic and ATH-M50 Headphones. Korg Nanopad2, WX5 Midi Sax, , Soprano Sax, Alto and Soprano Flute, Acoustic Guitar and Epiphone Dot Scoot not scook
|
sharke
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 13933
- Joined: 2012/08/03 00:13:00
- Location: NYC
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/10 21:18:56
(permalink)
Can anyone say they hear a definite difference between having the CE first and last in the chain? I know that technically they're two completely different things but I have to admit I'm having trouble hearing a difference.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
|
skitch_84
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 480
- Joined: 2012/09/23 07:14:47
- Location: Okayama, Japan
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/10 22:34:54
(permalink)
Scoot
Last on you chain = Emulation of the final recording to tape
First on your chain = Emulation of recording multi-tracks and then mixing and processing them.
Middle of the chain = Emulation of when you had recorded the multitrack tapes with some effects already applied. For example, you recorded a guitar with it's stomp boxes through it's amp and cab, to tape.
Thank you, Scoot! That's a good explanation and helps me to imagine how it would all happen if I was actually recording in a studio through physical gear.
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
|
Scoot
Max Output Level: -73 dBFS
- Total Posts : 875
- Joined: 2007/06/29 13:53:59
- Location: Da Nang, Vietnam
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/10 22:55:17
(permalink)
You have some interesting music Chris, interesting textures and percussion choices.
HP ENVY Notebook - 15t-k100 CTO i7 -4510U CPU @ 2.00 GHZ 8gb RAM. Windows 8.1 64bit Full HD Touchscreen Sonar X3 Producer, AAS Complete set, XLN AD Keys and Drums, TH2 Roland Quad Capture, AudioTeckina 3035 Mic and ATH-M50 Headphones. Korg Nanopad2, WX5 Midi Sax, , Soprano Sax, Alto and Soprano Flute, Acoustic Guitar and Epiphone Dot Scoot not scook
|
skitch_84
Max Output Level: -81 dBFS
- Total Posts : 480
- Joined: 2012/09/23 07:14:47
- Location: Okayama, Japan
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/10 23:12:29
(permalink)
Scoot
You have some interesting music Chris, interesting textures and percussion choices.
Thank you very much for listening and for the comment! I always try to aim for 'interesting' :)
Chris Porter www.cportermusic.comListen to my original work on Soundcloud and YouTubeGet my original soundtracks on Bandcamp Sonar Platinum "2017.04", Windows 10 64-bit, ASUS Z170-A, i7 6700K (4.0GHz), 32GB DDR4 RAM, 250GB SSD 850 EVO (OS/Sonar/Plugins), 1TB SSD 850 EVO (Sample Libraries), 3TB WD Black HDD (projects/audio), Noctua NH-D14 Cooling Unit, PreSonus AudioBox USB Interface, M-AUDIO Oxygen49
|
Guitarhacker
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 24398
- Joined: 2007/12/07 12:51:18
- Location: NC
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/11 09:09:22
(permalink)
sharke
Can anyone say they hear a definite difference between having the CE first and last in the chain? I know that technically they're two completely different things but I have to admit I'm having trouble hearing a difference.
Exactly! Years ago there was a big discussion among guitar players concerning the "correct" order of pedals in a pedal board.... It kinda sounded like the old rules we learned in school for English..... I before E except after C......or....when two vowels go walking, the first one usually does the talking.... I could kinda see the technical points made about compression before or after something else..... but really, in all the years I played and listened to folks with huge pedal boards.... I rarely used pedals at all and when I did it was one or two at most..... I could not, for the life of me, hear any difference whether the compressor was before the delay or after it. Even now, working in Sonar, you are able to change the position of the plugs in the FX bin..... just the other day, for grins, I decided to swap a few around just to see if I could hear any difference...... nope..... perhaps on a really fine, super quality studio speaker system in a treated room, perhaps one could hear a subtle difference...... but, not in my studio and I dare say, not on the iPods and ear buds 95% of people use to listen these days..... Just my 2 cents to this discussion... and totally my opinion.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
|
bitflipper
01100010 01101001 01110100 01100110 01101100 01101
- Total Posts : 26036
- Joined: 2006/09/17 11:23:23
- Location: Everett, WA USA
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/11 12:25:57
(permalink)
General rule #1: effects that add something to the sound precede things that take something away. Example: distortion (adds content) precedes chorus (subtracts content).
General rule #2: effects that alter amplitude precede effects that react to amplitude. Example: HPF (reduces lows) precedes compression (responds primarily to lows).
These are only general rules of thumb, of course, and subtle variations can be accomplished by reversing the normal order of precedence, e.g. EQ can go before or after reverb for different effect.
In the case of console emulators, they should generally precede tape sims, as suggested by both rules.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/11 12:43:56
(permalink)
sharke
Can anyone say they hear a definite difference between having the CE first and last in the chain? I know that technically they're two completely different things but I have to admit I'm having trouble hearing a difference.
It depends on what other effects are in the chain. For example, the CE has an effect on low frequencies by emulating the effect of input transformers, which adds subtle distortion and frequency response anomalies. If there's a bass boost before the CE, the end result will sound different compared to having a bass boost after the CE. When before, the boost will "push" more signal into the CE and alter the amount of distortion, while if after, the bass boost will simply increase the ampiltude of the effect that's already there.
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/11 12:47:57
(permalink)
bitflipper
General rule #2: effects that alter amplitude precede effects that react to amplitude. Example: HPF (reduces lows) precedes compression (responds primarily to lows).
The main exception to that general rule is that compression after EQ will "undo" some of the effects of EQ. For example if EQ reduces low frequencies, compression will bring them back up a bit. So if the emphasis is on a change caused by EQ, then you'd want to follow the compressor. But putting EQ before compression also has another use. With a dance mix where you want the kick to really pump, if you EQ after the compressor and boost the kick frequencies you'll likely overload anything that follows. If you push going into the compressor, the kick will sound louder but not take such a toll on the headroom.
|
Bel Amine
Max Output Level: -90 dBFS
- Total Posts : 30
- Joined: 2014/11/14 18:52:35
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/17 21:25:02
(permalink)
Anderton
bitflipper
General rule #2: effects that alter amplitude precede effects that react to amplitude. Example: HPF (reduces lows) precedes compression (responds primarily to lows).
The main exception to that general rule is that compression after EQ will "undo" some of the effects of EQ. For example if EQ reduces low frequencies, compression will bring them back up a bit. So if the emphasis is on a change caused by EQ, then you'd want to follow the compressor.
But putting EQ before compression also has another use. With a dance mix where you want the kick to really pump, if you EQ after the compressor and boost the kick frequencies you'll likely overload anything that follows. If you push going into the compressor, the kick will sound louder but not take such a toll on the headroom.
Does compression always undo the effects of EQ if applied after? I would imagine that the fact that compression alters amplitude over time whereas EQ alters amplitude in a more static manner would have a big effect on which frequencies get affected and how. For instance, let's say we have a compressor that is post-EQ (the EQ is removing some low end) acting as an envelope shaper. A kick tends to 'pitch down' over time. Knowing that, if you have the compressor set to compress the latter 'half' of the sound, leaving the transient alone, aren't you effectively lowering some of that low frequency content while the higher frequency click remains relatively untouched? This is assuming we haven't touched the make-up gain. And of course, this is only one example and I would love to know what you think.
|
Anderton
Max Output Level: 0 dBFS
- Total Posts : 14070
- Joined: 2003/11/06 14:02:03
- Status: offline
Re: Question regarding ideal order of plugins
2014/12/28 11:25:59
(permalink)
Bel Amine
Anderton
bitflipper
General rule #2: effects that alter amplitude precede effects that react to amplitude. Example: HPF (reduces lows) precedes compression (responds primarily to lows).
The main exception to that general rule is that compression after EQ will "undo" some of the effects of EQ. For example if EQ reduces low frequencies, compression will bring them back up a bit. So if the emphasis is on a change caused by EQ, then you'd want to follow the compressor.
But putting EQ before compression also has another use. With a dance mix where you want the kick to really pump, if you EQ after the compressor and boost the kick frequencies you'll likely overload anything that follows. If you push going into the compressor, the kick will sound louder but not take such a toll on the headroom.
Does compression always undo the effects of EQ if applied after? I would imagine that the fact that compression alters amplitude over time whereas EQ alters amplitude in a more static manner would have a big effect on which frequencies get affected and how. For instance, let's say we have a compressor that is post-EQ (the EQ is removing some low end) acting as an envelope shaper. A kick tends to 'pitch down' over time. Knowing that, if you have the compressor set to compress the latter 'half' of the sound, leaving the transient alone, aren't you effectively lowering some of that low frequency content while the higher frequency click remains relatively untouched? This is assuming we haven't touched the make-up gain. And of course, this is only one example and I would love to know what you think.
If you've adjusted the compressor to have an attack time, then compression isn't occurring during the attack so it's not really affecting anything.
|