Question regarding panning

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Galandar
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2015/11/04 11:08:10 (permalink)

Question regarding panning

In Sonar (I'm using Sonar Platinum) is there a way to give a section of instruments pan width other than copying instruments and setting them at different pan settings?  For example, if I want to have a viola section wrap around from 30% left to 30% right, do I have to create 3 each of Violas I, II, and III in order to get that kind of section width?

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    Adq
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/04 11:20:38 (permalink)
    Sonar has Channel Tools for that.
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    John
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/04 11:21:00 (permalink)
    No. I would send the strings to its own buss and apply Channel Tools to it. That will give you control of the width. 

    Best
    John
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    M@
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/04 12:02:21 (permalink)
    Hi, the other way one could read the OP's post is that he wants strings-I panned say 10%, strings-II 20%, and strings-III 30%... to spread each section independently. I know of no way other than to do it manually....else as Adq & John already said: Channel tools or the Stereo imager from the Nomad plugins.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/04 12:14:18 (permalink)
    Not sure I fully understand the question but instead of creating multiple tracks you could create three busses (or however many it is you need to create your desired spread). Then insert sends on each of the tracks going to those busses and just pan the busses.
     
    So...
     
    Tracks + 3 sends on each + 3 busses : Send 1 on each track > Bus 1
                                                             Send 2 on each track > Bus 2
                                                             Send 3 on each track > Bus 3
     
    Pan the busses as needed.
     
    There are pan controls on sends as well but I'm not immediately coming up with a way to use them in this scenario.
     
    As far as VST solutions, aside from Channel Tools, there is also a stereo expander included with the Blue Tubes bundle (doesn't have the level of control Prochannels does but might be something to try for spread) and if you owned X2 then R-Mix is another plugin with stereo spread/positioning options.
     
    Most quality virtual instruments will also have their own internal options for panning/routing/etc so maybe there is a solution there as well.
     
    We now have Aux Tracks too (if you are on the latest Jamaican Plains release of Sonar) so instead of the Busses method you could replace the busses with Aux tracks (and route the Sends to those instead). This would allow you to setup your panning in the Aux tracks right next to the actually audio/instrument tracks instead of all the way over in the Bus section of the Console View (and the Bus Pane of the Track View). Less clutter especially with use of Track Folders or even less if you hide unnecessary strips/track panes with the Track Manager (like once the Aux tracks are set up you could hide the audio/instrument tracks or vice versa and just adjust the most needed tracks as needed while you mix... you even bounce/record to the aux tracks and treat those like your tracks and Archive/Hide the original audio tracks).
     
    If I have mistaken the question or been too crazy/confusing in my ramblings my apologies.
     
    Cheers.
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    Galandar
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/04 13:28:18 (permalink)
    Thanks for all of the answers, and I apologize for not being clear.  Mostly I use Garritan instruments for orchestration, and they have a setting for front-to-back stage depth, which could simulate rows.  I wasn't thinking about panning the violas in individual sections, although that might be an option; for example, setting viola I to 30% left, viola II to 0 and viola III to 30% right.  I was thinking more along the lines of violas I in the front row in an arc from 30% left to 30% right, violas II in the second row, and violas III in the third row, in which case I would need nine viola instruments.  Quite frankly, I haven't used the channel tools, so that is intriguing.  Thanks again.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/04 13:54:23 (permalink)
    My questions (and sorry I am unfamiliar with Garritan or proper orchestral seating arrangements) are...
     
    1) Does Garritan allow for independent outputs for individual instruments (like in a whole orchestral arrangement can you isolate each of your virtual viola player's and send them to their own output in the VST which can then be sent to a track in Sonar)?
     
    2) Can the "rows" and or instrument sections be individually outputted from the VST (like I described for the individual instruments)?
     
    3) Can you describe for me the exact number of virtual "performers" (for the sections in question) in each row, how much output routing and definition is allowed in Garritan at one time and anything else that might help me understand your options INSIDE the VST using questions 1 and 2 as a general idea of what I'm trying to acertain?
     
    Basically I'm trying to figure out how many individual instruments are involved and what options you have for outputting them separately (or if they must be outputted in groups).
     
    Ignore any limitations that may be posed by eating up outputs from the VST by focusing on the Violas. Like if you have to lose outputs from Garritan that would normally output other instruments or sections so you can have more outputs for individual Violas or Viola sections that's fine because you could either freeze/bounce/record the viola instrument outputs in Sonar then go back and set up the routing for all the other instruments again or (if you have the processing power) set up another instance of Garritan to playback any other instruments while the first instance plays the complex viola routing.
     
    Kind of like recording each section one at a time instead of all at once so you can focus your outputs on each section or virtual performance instead of having the outputs playing more instruments at once... if that makes sense.
     
    The more control you have over the individual instruments and outputs the more control you can have over the mix.
     
    Even if you are stuck with outputting sections or rows at once that would still allow for some bus and VST width kernoodling on busses using sends.
     
    I hope that makes sense.
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    M@
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/04 14:42:39 (permalink)
    As Beepster said: check how many ouputs you have at your disposal from within Garritan. I am guessing you would be able to set/send 3 groups of violas to 3 individual audio tracks within Sonar. If so you wouldn't need 9 viola tracks but only those 3 as by your statement you are able to set the depth of an instrument (or instrument groups) so this parameter would take care of placeing violas I in front of violas II and in front if violas III.
    Then use the channel-tools plugin (3x) on each group of violas to set the width and/or pan position: If you are going to need detailed control over the three groups during mixing I would create 3 busses, one for each group of violas and place the plugins in the bus, else I would place the plugins on the vst output tracks and send the three groups to one bus.

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    Galandar
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/05 11:56:42 (permalink)
    Thanks for your interest Beepster and M@!  This is turning into a lot more than I had bargained for, but I'll explain.  I am trying to reproduce an orchestra setup I saw on another site.  Quite frankly, I don't know if it is going to make a bit of difference in the sound produced, but I wanted to experiment.  Each instance of the Garritan Aria multi-synth that you put into the synth rack in Sonar allows you to define up to 16 midi instrument tracks.  I have a separate Aria synth in the Sonar synth rack for violas (I have used up to 15 synths without any problems) and so I could define up to 16 viola instruments, each with its own pan setting.  For orchestrations, I tend to use section voices rather than individual instruments, so up until now, I have used only 3 viola section voices (three Sonar midi tracks) for the violas, one each for viola I, II, and III.  One solution would be to set the pan for viola I to 30% left, viola II to center, and viola III to 30% right.  This would give the impression of viola I players perhaps three rows deep on the left, viola II players in the center, and viola III players on the right; however, I would like to "homogenize" the sound with the same harmony coming all around the arc from 30% left to 30% right.  As a side note, the Aria synth also allows me to set the individual parts to different stage depths, giving the impression of, say, viola I in the first row, viola II in the second, and viola III in the third.  But this would probably only be noticeable using surround sound, so I'm not concerned with that at the moment.  It sounds like the way to go is to send the output of the viola Aria synth to a bus and use the channel tools to spread the sound around that arc.  I haven't used the channel tools yet, so that should be an adventure and learning experience.  Individual control of instrument voices shouldn't be a problem because I can tweak the individual midi tracks pretty easily.  Thanks again for your interest

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    Beepster
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/05 12:35:03 (permalink)
    Alright then. Based on that description (if I'm understanding it correctly) try this...
     
    Since you are not limited by output options set up individual Instrument tracks in Sonar (the MIDI audio outputs that will accept the signal for each voice you want from teh VSTi). Set the outputs of those tracks to whatever downstream bus you normally would (like a "Violas Solo" or simply the Master).
     
    Pan the tracks however you like. You can treat these like "close" mics of the instruments.
     
    On each of the tracks create a Send that goes to a specific bus. Call it something like "Violas Room" or "Violas Group".
     
    You can now treat that bus as if it were a stereo mic setup in the room. You can use the Pan control on the Send modules of the specific tracks to position them where you'd like in the stereo field (doesn't necessarily have to match the virtual "close mic" panning on the main tracks pan controls). Put some reverb on the bus to create your "room/hall" or you could setup a separate parallel reverb bus (I won't go into the routing of that unless you need me to). You'll probably want convolution reverb for that. Actually if you use a separate parallel reverb bus you could also send the close mic tracks there to keep it all in the same "space" if you want.
     
    Add your stereo spread VST to that bus (so Channel Tools or whatever). You may not even REALLY need this because you already have tons of panning options (on both the track and the sends) but you could constrain the stereo field to the 30-30 parameters you are describing (so you would be LIMITING the stereo field... not widening it).
     
    Now you can just blend your Viola "Room" bus in with the close mic signal and tweak to taste.
     
    Alternatively if ARIA player allows for auxilary bus/sends on its internal track mixer you could set up this "Close Mic" and "Room Mic" set up right inside the VSTi. Just add all the Violas to your Aux busses and make sure that the aux bus has it's own track inside Sonar (on top of the main "Close" mic outputs). That way you can use the ARIA player's internal space/depth/placement tools which might be easier to use/better suited to creating a real orchestral environment.
     
    In that scenario you'd still have your "close" mic'd instruments going to their own tracks and the Aux goes to it's own track and you blend them as stated before. Any extra reverb, compression, stereo width tools within Sonar can go right on the tracks and then you can just send all the tracks to a single summing bus (Violas ALL or whatever).
     
    Just some ideas. You may indeed want to play with compression in these scenarios, probably on the "room" track so the room is squashed and adds fullness while the individual viola tracks are more dynamic. Using a two stage compressor setup would probably be best due to the acoustic nature of the material so you send the signal through one compressor to tame the peaks a bit and then (maybe after some eqing) a second compressor to bring up the lower volume parts even more to fill it out. This is to avoid the "pumping" a single cranked compressor can cause... especially on more dynamic material which is really noticeable on acoustic material. That is merely an extra suggestion.
     
    I am NOT a pro engineer (yet... but I read a lot) and only have minimal experience working with virtual string parts so take all that with a grain of salt. It's just stuff I would try if I were attempting what I THINK you are doing.
     
    If I am way off base my apologies.
     
    There is a fellow around here that goes by Konradh who does WAY more of this who hopefully will stop by as well as many others. I think Sidroe is another fellow who does this type of thing as well but I am unsure.
     
    Perhaps edit your title to include something about Orchestral panning/Violas/ARIA player or whatever to signal that's what this thread is about. I'd be curious to see what some of these guys come up with (no doubt they'll point out how terribly wrong and awkward my plan is... lulz).
     
    Cheers.
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    M@
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/05 13:44:26 (permalink)
    Hi Galander,
    Beepsters advice to change/precise the title of the thread is a good Idea!
    Some tipps from someone with more experience in routing/panning/stageing orchestrations would of course be great.
    I think B's proposed setup is a good way to create the space you are looking for. Otherwise:
    -> Just plug-in the channel-tools plugin and play with it, you'll get results I'm sure.

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    Galandar
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    Re: Question regarding panning 2015/11/05 14:32:38 (permalink)
    Thanks all!

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