vaultwit
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Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
Hello, I have some questions about how MIDI works in Sonar X1. I use MIDI's all the time and they are very important in my projects, so I want to clear this up a bit. Questions:
1) How do you send seperate MIDI tracks to a bus? I need the ability to group different MIDI tracks so I can apply effects and change their volumes altogether. Please tell me there is a way to do this...
2) How do you insert a synth to a MIDI track, instead of inserting a MIDI to a synth track? When you insert a synth, I'm given the option to create a "simple instrument track" and then I drag&drop the MIDI clips into that track - thats how I've been doing it in the past. But is there a way to create a MIDI track, then add a synth to that track?
Thanks in advance for your help
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 16:26:06
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1) How do you send seperate MIDI tracks to a bus? I need the ability to group different MIDI tracks so I can apply effects and change their volumes altogether. Please tell me there is a way to do this...
You'll need to send the audio from your synths to a buss, not the MIDI data. 2) How do you insert a synth to a MIDI track, instead of inserting a MIDI to a synth track? When you insert a synth, I'm given the option to create a "simple instrument track" and then I drag&drop the MIDI clips into that track - thats how I've been doing it in the past. But is there a way to create a MIDI track, then add a synth to that track?
You can insert a MIDI track if you don't have one already, then insert a synth in the synth rack, making sure that you either create or already have an audio track you can use for its output. Then in the MIDI track select the synth as the output. Alternatively have the synth create a separate MIDI & audio out track when you open the synth EDITED: for clarity
post edited by FastBikerBoy - 2011/08/16 16:27:48
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vaultwit
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 16:48:59
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FastBikerBoy
1) How do you send seperate MIDI tracks to a bus? I need the ability to group different MIDI tracks so I can apply effects and change their volumes altogether. Please tell me there is a way to do this...
You'll need to send the audio from your synths to a buss, not the MIDI data.
2) How do you insert a synth to a MIDI track, instead of inserting a MIDI to a synth track? When you insert a synth, I'm given the option to create a "simple instrument track" and then I drag&drop the MIDI clips into that track - thats how I've been doing it in the past. But is there a way to create a MIDI track, then add a synth to that track?
You can insert a MIDI track if you don't have one already, then insert a synth in the synth rack, making sure that you either create or already have an audio track you can use for its output. Then in the MIDI track select the synth as the output. Alternatively have the synth create a separate MIDI & audio out track when you open the synth
EDITED: for clarity
1) What do you mean by sending the audio from the MIDI, not the MIDI data? I'll insert a synth which creates an instrument track for that synth, and i'll add MIDI clips to that track. And I'll do that to create 2-3 different instrument tracks, each having their own variations of different MIDI clips. Now I wan't to group those 3 synth instrument tracks together so I can change things, i.e. volume, all together. Which is why I brought up the idea of a bus. I want to be able to do this without mixing down the MIDI's to waves, because the group-editing is part of what I do to get the wave audio that I want. For example, let's say im making drums from MIDI files. And I need 3 different tracks, for 3 drum parts that I'm making - kick, snare, hat. And each of the three uses a different synth. I'll create 3 different tracks each with its own synth and holding the respective MIDI clips. Now I want to be able to change the volume of the entire "drum kit" (i.e. those 3 tracks) together. 2) If I understand what you're saying, you're saying to create two different tracks for each "MIDI track" i want - one midi track that holds the actual midi clips, then another "output track" that has the synth... and to send the midi track's output to the synth track, correct? But then I'll have two tracks for each instrument I use, and the number of tracks in my project will double. It makes sense if I want to send several midi tracks' output to one synth, but I rarely do that. Most of the time, each of my MIDI instruments requires its out synth. So wouldn't it make sense to have just one track for instrument that holds both its MIDI clips and its own synth?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 16:57:32
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1) What do you mean by sending the audio from the MIDI, not the MIDI data? I'll insert a synth which creates an instrument track for that synth, and i'll add MIDI clips to that track. And I'll do that to create 2-3 different instrument tracks, each having their own variations of different MIDI clips. Now I wan't to group those 3 synth instrument tracks together so I can change things, i.e. volume, all together. Which is why I brought up the idea of a bus. I want to be able to do this without mixing down the MIDI's to waves, because the group-editing is part of what I do to get the wave audio that I want.
For example, let's say im making drums from MIDI files. And I need 3 different tracks, for 3 drum parts that I'm making - kick, snare, hat. And each of the three uses a different synth. I'll create 3 different tracks each with its own synth and holding the respective MIDI clips. Now I want to be able to change the volume of the entire "drum kit" (i.e. those 3 tracks) together.
MIDI tracks are just data, a set of instructions to instruments that understand those instructions. A buss however deals with audio, therefore to send MIDI instruments to a buss you have to send the audio that they create. You could either do that with sends on their audio tracks or set their outputs to the buss. If you're using hardware synths you'd need to either process the audio externally or record it and then treat it as a regular audio track. You can change volume by changing velocity of the MIDI but that is done at a data level not audio, therefore not via a buss. AFAIK there's no such thing as a MIDI buss but maybe someone with more knowledge than me will correct me. 2) If I understand what you're saying, you're saying to create two different tracks for each "MIDI track" i want - one midi track that holds the actual midi clips, then another "output track" that has the synth... and to send the midi track's output to the synth track, correct?
Yes that's pretty much it. All a simple instrument track is, is a MIDI track and Audio track combined with much of the mechanics of it hidden from the user. But then I'll have two tracks for each instrument I use, and the number of tracks in my project will double.
Yes that's the price you pay for greater control It makes sense if I want to send several midi tracks' output to one synth, but I rarely do that. Most of the time, each of my MIDI instruments requires its out synth. So wouldn't it make sense to have just one track for instrument that holds both its MIDI clips and its own synth?
Perhaps, it's a user choice really. The simple instrument track is there if you want it or if you prefer use the separate tracks as I described earlier. There's no right or wrong, it's up to you.
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John
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 16:57:42
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MIDI is just data. A protocol to stream bytes of data from one thing to another. MIDI is Music Instrument Digital Interface. Sonar take that data and can send it to a hardware synth or an internal soft synth. They in turn produce the sound.
MIDI is a huge subject and this is not the place to learn the basics. There is plenty on the net to get you started. Also the manual has a lot of good basic information about MIDI.
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vaultwit
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 17:17:31
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Guy's I'm sorry if I portrayed myself otherwise, but I know what MIDI is and how it works. Actually when I said "What do you mean by sending the audio from the MIDI, not the MIDI data?" I was asking what type of method you were talking about, not asking about the theory behind MIDI date and how audio is created from its data. I've been using MIDI for a very long time, and I know that synths use the data from MIDIs to create sounds from them.
Maybe the fact that I asked how to create a "MIDI bus" threw people off. But what I was really trying to ask was, how to accomplish the same idea of an audio bus except with MIDI tracks. I want to be able to group several MIDI tracks and change different features of those tracks simultaneously. For example, the volume (not velocity) of the track (that is, the volume output by the track's synth), and effects (i.e. reverb, delay, compression). So really, I'm not wanting to do these things to the MIDI itself per se, but rather to the sound that is created from the synths.
I suppose a question I should've asked first (and I kind of intended to with my question #2) is: how to put MIDI clips into a track, send it through a synth, and have the synth output the audio it creates from those midi clips - all in a SINGLE track. Then, since the track is actually producing audio FROM the MIDI data it has, it would make more sense it group these "audio tracks" into a single "audio bus".
For any Reaper users out there, this is simple to do: create a track, drag&drop the MIDI clips you want into that track, then insert a VSTi into that track. Then, since each track is essentially an audio track (a track with a synth producing audio from the MIDI data it contains) you can group the tracks together and apply group effects or volume changes.
Sorry for the confusion I may have introduced, and I appreciate everyone's help.
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bvideo
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 17:18:12
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The simple instrument track is really an alternate display of an actual pair of tracks, one MIDI, one audio, which is the standard way Sonar implements a stereo softsynth. You can right click on the instrument track header and do "split instrument track" to see the two tracks. At that point you can investigate all the plumbing that gets set up with inputs, outputs, and synth rack, in case you would prefer to set up all that plumbing yourself. If you right click on the split MIDI or audio clip you will now see a menu item to "make instrument track" to set it back to a single track.
The audio track is where you would direct the synth's audio to a bus or you could even add effects directly on the synth's own audio track.
Incidentally, using the Track Inspector ('i') you can see all the details of the MIDI, audio, and downstream bus and all effects without splitting the instrument track. Just look for the tabs at the top and bottom of the inspector to choose which sections you want for details. This seems better to me than splitting the instrument tracks. Automation would be another story.
Bill B
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 17:30:45
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I suppose a question I should've asked first (and I kind of intended to with my question #2) is: how to put MIDI clips into a track, send it through a synth, and have the synth output the audio it creates from those midi clips - all in a SINGLE track. Then, since the track is actually producing audio FROM the MIDI data it has, it would make more sense it group these "audio tracks" into a single "audio bus".
For any Reaper users out there, this is simple to do: create a track, drag&drop the MIDI clips you want into that track, then insert a VSTi into that track. Then, since each track is essentially an audio track (a track with a synth producing audio from the MIDI data it contains) you can group the tracks together and apply group effects or volume changes.
That's essentially what a simple instrument track is. In Sonar however you can't have multiple VSTs audio output to one track. If reaper does that, that's impressive. If you mean how to send a group of tracks to a buss just select all the tracks then hold the ctrl key down, Any action you perform on one track will then be replicated on them all. Works on the MIDI source tracks as well.
post edited by FastBikerBoy - 2011/08/16 17:32:07
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vaultwit
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 17:38:20
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FastBikerBoy
I suppose a question I should've asked first (and I kind of intended to with my question #2) is: how to put MIDI clips into a track, send it through a synth, and have the synth output the audio it creates from those midi clips - all in a SINGLE track. Then, since the track is actually producing audio FROM the MIDI data it has, it would make more sense it group these "audio tracks" into a single "audio bus".
For any Reaper users out there, this is simple to do: create a track, drag&drop the MIDI clips you want into that track, then insert a VSTi into that track. Then, since each track is essentially an audio track (a track with a synth producing audio from the MIDI data it contains) you can group the tracks together and apply group effects or volume changes.
That's essentially what a simple instrument track is. In Sonar however you can't have multiple VSTs audio output to one track. If reaper does that, that's impressive. If you mean how to send a group of tracks to a buss just select all the tracks then hold the ctrl key down, Any action you perform on one track will then be replicated on them all. Works on the MIDI source tracks as well.
So you're saying there's no way to send multiple "Simple Instrument Tracks" to a single bus? Does Sonar consider Simple Instrument Tracks as audio tracks? If so, I would imagine there (should be) a way to send them to a buss. Also, is there a way to insert a Simple Instrument Track other than by inserting a new synth into the Synth rack? Like, can you first insert a blank Simple Instrument Track into the track view, then insert the desired MIDI clips into that track, then insert a synth to that track last?
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John
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 17:44:02
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If you are talking about multiple MIDI tracks being controlled at the same time X1 has grouping this will do this. As to sending all these MIDI tracks to one location it would depend on the synth used. You would always send to a synth either hardware or software.
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 17:44:55
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So you're saying there's no way to send multiple "Simple Instrument Tracks" to a single bus? Does Sonar consider Simple Instrument Tracks as audio tracks? If so, I would imagine there (should be) a way to send them to a buss.
No, I'm saying there is an easy way of sending "Simple Instrument tracks" to a single buss. Select all the tracks you want to send, hold the ctrl key down, right click and the select "Insert Send" from the context menu. Also, is there a way to insert a Simple Instrument Track other than by inserting a new synth into the Synth rack? Like, can you first insert a blank Simple Instrument Track into the track view, then insert the desired MIDI clips into that track, then insert a synth to that track last?
I can't answer that with any certainty because I always use separate tracks not instrument tracks, but I don't think so. You can however combine an existing MIDI track and audio track to make an instrument track.
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vaultwit
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 17:55:02
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FastBikerBoy
You can however combine an existing MIDI track and audio track to make an instrument track.
After doing that, can I add a synth to that newly created instrument track? If so, how can I do that?
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FastBikerBoy
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 18:04:28
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vaultwit
FastBikerBoy
You can however combine an existing MIDI track and audio track to make an instrument track.
After doing that, can I add a synth to that newly created instrument track? If so, how can I do that?
Not that I'm aware as IIRC the audio & midi tracks you combine already have to be assigned to the same (presuambly already inserted synth). However as I said I'm a bit out of my knowledge zone there as I don't usually, if ever use instrument tracks. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of those will jump in and help.
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vaultwit
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 18:18:38
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FastBikerBoy
vaultwit
FastBikerBoy
You can however combine an existing MIDI track and audio track to make an instrument track.
After doing that, can I add a synth to that newly created instrument track? If so, how can I do that?
Not that I'm aware as IIRC the audio & midi tracks you combine already have to be assigned to the same (presuambly already inserted synth). However as I said I'm a bit out of my knowledge zone there as I don't usually, if ever use instrument tracks. Perhaps someone with more knowledge of those will jump in and help.
Well I appreciate all the help you've given so far fastbikerboy, I do appreciate it. And everyone else who pitched in. And of course, if anyone has anything else they'd like to contribute, that's always welcomed too.
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brundlefly
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 18:51:19
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After doing that, can I add a synth to that newly created instrument track? If so, how can I do that? In case you're not confused enough: An "Instrument" track is just an audio track with its input set to the output of a synth inserted in the synth rack. The audio track is acting as a conduit to get the synth's output to your Master bus and on to you monitoring system. Plus it gives you a place to insert FX and control the level of the signal. It's just like a strip on a hardware mixer. Leaving out how the MIDI data gets into the MIDI track, here's the conventional data and signal flow for what you're describing: Output of MIDI Track 1 > Synth 1 in Synth Rack > Input of Audio Track 1 > Output of Audio Track 1 > Synth Bus Output of MIDI Track 2 > Synth 2 in Synth Rack > Input of Audio Track 2 > Output of Audio Track 2 > Synth Bus You can set this up piecemeal by inserting synths in the rack without creating any tracks, and then creating your MIDI and Audio tracks and setting their inputs and outputs manually. Or you can insert the synths as Simple Instruments, which will create a combined MIDI+Audio track with I/O already assigned to the synth in the rack. Simple Instrument tracks display as MIDI, but output audio coming from the synth in the rack being driven by that MIDI. You can right-click a Simple Insturment track and Split it to separate MIDI and Audio tracks. Conversely, you can also take your manually inserted MIDI and Audio track pairs, and Make them into a Simple Instrument track. When first starting out, I think it's best to use separate MIDI and Audio tracks until you fully understand all the details of their respective functions, and how they work together to get from a key press on a controller keyboard to an audible note in your monitors. Finally, it's also possible to insert a synth in the FX bin of a track, but all that's really doing is inserting the synth in the rack, and connecting it's output to the audio track via the FX bin, rather than via the the track's Input. This is to be avoided for various reasons, not the least of which is it makes the signal flow confusing.
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vaultwit
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/16 22:05:57
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Brundlefly, I have been playing around with the things you talked about in your post in Sonar, and I think I'm definitely getting the hang of it. Many thanks. But I did come across one thing... maybe you or someone else can help me out. So I started a new project and created 3 different midi tracks each containing different midi clips. Then I inserted a new audio track and inserted a synth into it so I can combine it and one of the midi tracks into an instrument track. But when I inserted the synth, ALL THREE of the midi tracks automatically took the synth track as its output. Thus, I can't created an instrument track at all because Sonar will only let me do it if ONE midi track and ONE synth track is connected to the synth. To make matters worse, I can't even deselect that synth as the output for the other two midi's... help please When you insert a new synth for the first time in a project, how do you prevent EVERY midi track from taking that synth as its output?
post edited by vaultwit - 2011/08/16 22:21:48
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rbowser
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/17 00:24:22
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vaultwit
Guy's I'm sorry if I portrayed myself otherwise, but I know what MIDI is and how it works...
Well, I guess we were tending to guess you weren't too familiar with MIDI since you said "I use MIDI's all the time" (you use MIDI's what--sorry, had to ask)--- A MIDI musician uses MIDI to record tracks, usually in multiple, which, as everyone has said, are data tracks driving various synths, hardware or synth. But I guess you're talking about using MIDI clips you haven't produced yourself, and that's part of creating music on a computer, but is still the smallest part of making actual music. In your new post, I think you're trying to describe having multiple audio outputs grouped to a bus, but from the rest of your post it looks like you're still in pre-MIDI 101, and there's just too much for us try to explain in posts which, if they get too long, are ignored. So. I know you're earnest, but you really do need to do a lot more reading up on the subject, and more experimenting. Randy B.
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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vaultwit
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/17 00:45:26
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rbowser
Well, I guess we were tending to guess you weren't too familiar with MIDI since you said "I use MIDI's all the time" (you use MIDI's what--sorry, had to ask)--- A MIDI musician uses MIDI to record tracks, usually in multiple, which, as everyone has said, are data tracks driving various synths, hardware or synth. But I guess you're talking about using MIDI clips you haven't produced yourself, and that's part of creating music on a computer, but is still the smallest part of making actual music.
In your new post, I think you're trying to describe having multiple audio outputs grouped to a bus, but from the rest of your post it looks like you're still in pre-MIDI 101, and there's just too much for us try to explain in posts which, if they get too long, are ignored. So. I know you're earnest, but you really do need to do a lot more reading up on the subject, and more experimenting.
Randy B.
Thank you for your input, but I never said I was a MIDI musician--or what you consider a MIDI musician, that is. I said I know what MIDI is and how it works, which I do. And punctuation has the least of relevence here, you know what I meant to say. I know enough about MIDI to do what I need to do with music and with Sonar. And frankly, I'm not going to spend time reading or studying MIDI in an attempt to learn more than I really need to know--especially when that time can be used to learn how to use Sonar X1. I know how MIDIs work, I just didn't know how Sonar performs some of the functions that I need, which is why I asked for some help in this forum. In fact, if you've read where I mentioned it in one of my posts in this thread, I've done this very task (grouping midi outputs into a bus) in other music programs, and I just needed to figure out how to do it with Sonar. I've been making music this way (compose songs in MIDI format using composer programs, then patch them with synths/VSTs) for more than 5 years and, though that may just be a blink of an eye for some veterans, I've done my share of reading and exerimenting. I'm not MIDI ****ed, just a bit SonarX1 ****ed. For now at least. And in fact, I'm currently suffering a problem with MIDI notes getting stuck in SonarX1 that I can't seem to fix, if you're willing to help out: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2366385
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brundlefly
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Re:Questions about how MIDI's work in Sonar X1?
2011/08/17 00:45:56
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When you insert a new synth for the first time in a project, how do you prevent EVERY midi track from taking that synth as its output? That's just SONAR trying to make you're life easier, assuming you want the MIDI to go s omewhere, and defaulting to the first destination that becomes available. Normally, if you have at least one hardware MIDI output port, newly inserted MIDI tracks will default to the first hardware output, and won't change when you insert a soft synth. But even if the default were None, you'd have to manually assign the output to the another synth at some point, so I don't know if it's really an issue that all the tracks are initially assigned to the first synth you insert. Also, it sounds like you're starting with a pre-existing multi-track MIDI sequence, which is not the usual scenario for the recording studios, composers or songwriters at whom SONAR is aimed, who build projects from scratch one or a few tracks at a time. That said, it's not uncommon for MIDI composers, especially in the orchestral genres, to set up a pre-configured Template with tracks, channels, synths and patches already set up and ready to begin recording or importing MIDI into. Some of those templates have been shared on the Forum. Depending on your long-term goal, you might want to consider adopting or creating something like that for yourself.
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