Questions about pasting automation envelopes

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stickman393
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2014/07/04 17:38:20 (permalink)

Questions about pasting automation envelopes

Question 1: What keyword do I have to enter in the forum search box to get useful hits on "copying and pasting automation envelopes"? Because I get nothing useful on "envelope" or "automation" and I can't believe this hasn't been discussed before.
 
Question 2: Is there a thread on this forum where copying and pasting envelopes - specifically Bus Send Level envelopes, but I'll take what I can get - has been discussed? 'Cause I'd rather go there and add to the existing discussion rather than create a new thread.
 
[UPDATE: the search filter says "last 30 days". I've changed that to "everything, dammit" and it returns more results. For example, THIS THREAD.]
 
Well, here goes:
 
I am re-creating a project and I am attempting to copy an automation envelope from a bus in the old project to a bus in the new project, and no matter what I try, I get a "phantom" envelope that is not respected (I've toggled [R] to see if read-automation is disabled, but no joy).
 
I've tried opening the automation lane in the target project, then pasting in - and the envelope appears in the "main" track lane, leaving the default 0db straight line in the automation lane. No matter what I do, I can't get the pasted envelope to be connected to the actual send level.
 
It's frustrating.
 
SONAR X3e Professional (32-bit on Windows 7 64).
post edited by stickman393 - 2014/07/04 17:54:12
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    Anderton
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 00:33:09 (permalink)
    stickman393
    I am re-creating a project and I am attempting to copy an automation envelope from a bus in the old project to a bus in the new project, and no matter what I try, I get a "phantom" envelope that is not respected (I've toggled [R] to see if read-automation is disabled, but no joy).
     
    I've tried opening the automation lane in the target project, then pasting in - and the envelope appears in the "main" track lane, leaving the default 0db straight line in the automation lane. No matter what I do, I can't get the pasted envelope to be connected to the actual send level.



    I'm a little confused because you say you want to copy an automation envelope (Volume, maybe?) from a bus to another bus, but then you mention wanting to connect to the send level, which is a track function. So I'm not sure if you want to:
     
    a) Copy an envelope to a like envelope, or
    b) Copy an envelope but be able to assign it to something else - e.g., copy the Volume envelope in a bus to a track, where it can serve as a Send Level envelope.
     
    We'll deal with a) first. For this example we'll assume you have a Send Level in a track that feeds the Master bus, have a Send Level envelope, and want to copy this bus's Send Level envelope from one project to another. There are several ways to do this, the simplest depends on multiple factors but here's one option. If you don't like it we can try another.
     
    1. Set the Edit filter in the track that contains the envelope to the automation you want to copy (in this case, Master Send Level).
    2. Click on the track number so that the number's background turns blue, indicating you've selected the entire track.
    3. Choose Edit > Copy Special. Check Track/Bus automation and click OK.
    4. Put the focus on the new project to which you want to copy the envelope.
    5. Click on the track number for the track where you want to paste the envelope in the new project so the track number background turns blue, then place the now time where you want to paste the envelope (presumably the beginning).
    6. Choose Edit > Paste Special and click on Advanced. Make sure Track/Bus automation is checked under "What to paste." Click OK to paste the envelope.
     
    As to b), after you've pasted the envelope, you can right-click on a node or the line, choose Assign Envelope, and choose a different target.
     
    That should do it if I understand correctly what it is you want to do. If I don't, please explain further and we'll figure out something.
     

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    sharke
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 00:54:15 (permalink)
    I've had a problem with pasting envelopes as well, but in my case it was the pasted envelope's timing seeming to be slightly off. I had an envelope automating the send level to a delay return so that I could apply delay only to certain notes at the end of musical phrases. The part was all MIDI and hard quantized, and the part I pasted the envelope to was a carbon copy of the first part. Basically I wanted to apply the same envelope to two instances of the same clip. Only when I pasted the envelope, the timing of it was slightly off by a few milliseconds, which you could hear because it was sending the tail end of unwanted notes to the delay return. I was surprised because everything was supposedly slap bang on the grid. 

    James
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    Kev999
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 01:13:53 (permalink)
    stickman393
    ...What keyword do I have to enter in the forum search box to get useful hits...

     
    Forget about the forum search engine and use Google Advanced Search instead.

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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 02:41:34 (permalink)
    sharke
    I've had a problem with pasting envelopes as well, but in my case it was the pasted envelope's timing seeming to be slightly off. I had an envelope automating the send level to a delay return so that I could apply delay only to certain notes at the end of musical phrases. The part was all MIDI and hard quantized, and the part I pasted the envelope to was a carbon copy of the first part. Basically I wanted to apply the same envelope to two instances of the same clip. Only when I pasted the envelope, the timing of it was slightly off by a few milliseconds, which you could hear because it was sending the tail end of unwanted notes to the delay return. I was surprised because everything was supposedly slap bang on the grid. 


    Not wishing to derail the op's topic, but did you have your now time set to 01:01:000 when performing the paste AND copy?
     
    I find that C+P with envelopes works perfectly when following these 2 simple rules

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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 12:39:25 (permalink)
    @Bristol_Jonesy -
     
    >> did you have your now time set to 01:01:000 when performing the paste AND copy?
     
    Sort of. Here's the context:  I'm trying to paste automation from bar 103-end into a new project, at position 1. Basically breaking up this big project into smaller independent projects.
    So, having highlighted the section of the source envelope, I copy, then go to the destination project and reWind, and paste.
     
    Another possible wrinkle - the source project was created and edited in an earlier version of SONAR.. X2 I think but it probably started in 8.5. This is one reason I'm rebuilding the projects in X3, clean.
     
    @CraigA -
     
    >> I'm a little confused [..] you want to copy an automation envelope (Volume, maybe?) from a bus to another bus, but then you mention wanting to connect to the send level, which is a track function
     
    I have a bus that aggregates several instruments. This bus then has a LEVEL SEND to a second Bus with a Reverb FX. I am automating the amount of aggregated signal that gets sent to the reverb bus. This is not unusual, I think? (I'll take the blame for not being clear - It can get tricky to be precise when describing these sorts of problems in words.)
     
    Craig, thanks for laying out the process in steps 1-6. That is essentially the process I'm following, with the exception of the "Copy Special/Paste Special". I figured that the Edit Filter had basically replaced the need to do that ... normal copy/paste should operate on the current Edit Filter target, I thought.
     
    >> after you've pasted the envelope, you can right-click on a node or the line, choose Assign Envelope, and choose a different target.
     
    The annoying thing is that when the envelope shows up in the target project - and it does appear - it does not respond to right-clicking, and I am unable to reassign it.
     
    I will take some time today to try and reproduce this problem in a clean set of projects. I'll return with my findings.
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    Anderton
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 14:20:00 (permalink)
    stickman393
     
    >> after you've pasted the envelope, you can right-click on a node or the line, choose Assign Envelope, and choose a different target.
     
    The annoying thing is that when the envelope shows up in the target project - and it does appear - it does not respond to right-clicking, and I am unable to reassign it.



    That is not expected behavior. Are you sure the Edit Filter is set correctly? Is the envelope a black line or colored?

    The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 14:28:41 (permalink)
    @Craig, and all:
     
    Here is a write-up of my experience, complete with screen-shots. It should be shared as public.
    Please let me know if you can't view it.
     
    I reproduced the problem using simple, newly created projects in X1 and X3.
     
     
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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 14:43:53 (permalink)
    PARTIALLY SOLVED:
     
    I just walked through the steps again. In this case it seems the critical mistake is selecting the Edit Filter to "FX Send Level" prior to attempting the paste operation.
     
    If I leave the Edit Filter at "none" in the target project; then select Paste Special, the new envelope goes in; is assigned to FX Send Level; and is respected during playback. There is now only one envelope on the MIX bus.
     
    I say "partially solved" because it seems to be that a) there is a bug here in that it was possible to get my project into an unworkable state, and b) why shouldn't the Edit Filter allow me to over-write/replace existing envelopes, regardless of how they got there?
     
     
     
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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 14:43:37 (permalink)
    Additional observations:
     
    At least in these simple project examples, I can also use normal Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V to copy and paste the envelope between projects:
    • select edit filter = FX Send Level in target;
    • Ctrl-Copy
    • Select target project, with destination bus selected and edit filter = None
    • Ctrl-Paste
    • Envelope shows up, is respected.
    I swear, this was the first thing I tried in my "real" projects where I first encountered the problem... and it didn't work. Hence my attempts to find the "right" sequence of actions.
     
    I'm not sure what I can do about my "real" project, which has the two envelopes that can't be deleted... I suspect I will have to re-create the bus from scratch. No big deal.
     
    I hope this series of posts helps others on the forum who experience issues with envelope pasting. And remember, guys: Change the search results options from "Last 30 days" to "From the beginning".
     
     
     
     
     
     
     
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    sharke
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 14:48:54 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey
    sharke
    I've had a problem with pasting envelopes as well, but in my case it was the pasted envelope's timing seeming to be slightly off. I had an envelope automating the send level to a delay return so that I could apply delay only to certain notes at the end of musical phrases. The part was all MIDI and hard quantized, and the part I pasted the envelope to was a carbon copy of the first part. Basically I wanted to apply the same envelope to two instances of the same clip. Only when I pasted the envelope, the timing of it was slightly off by a few milliseconds, which you could hear because it was sending the tail end of unwanted notes to the delay return. I was surprised because everything was supposedly slap bang on the grid. 


    Not wishing to derail the op's topic, but did you have your now time set to 01:01:000 when performing the paste AND copy?
     
    I find that C+P with envelopes works perfectly when following these 2 simple rules


    Also not wishing to derail the OP's topic further (which I already did...lol) - yeah I made sure the cursor was bang on the mark for both the copy and the paste. It totally flummoxed me. The one should have been the carbon copy of the other. In the end I gave up and inserted another copy of the synth to simulate the delays I wanted, which gave me more control anyway and also led to a more creative result :)

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    Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 15:27:01 (permalink)
    Please submit a problem report, list the CWBRN number and I will take a look. Make sure you have repeatable steps and preferable include a simple CWP file to reproduce the issue.
     
    stickman393
    Additional observations:
     
    At least in these simple project examples, I can also use normal Ctrl-C/Ctrl-V to copy and paste the envelope between projects:
    • select edit filter = FX Send Level in target;
    • Ctrl-Copy
    • Select target project, with destination bus selected and edit filter = None
    • Ctrl-Paste
    • Envelope shows up, is respected.
    I swear, this was the first thing I tried in my "real" projects where I first encountered the problem... and it didn't work. Hence my attempts to find the "right" sequence of actions.
     
    I'm not sure what I can do about my "real" project, which has the two envelopes that can't be deleted... I suspect I will have to re-create the bus from scratch. No big deal.
     
    I hope this series of posts helps others on the forum who experience issues with envelope pasting. And remember, guys: Change the search results options from "Last 30 days" to "From the beginning".
     
     
     
     
     
     
     





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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/07/05 17:26:08 (permalink)
    Hi Noel,
    Thanks for responding, and on a holiday too.
     
    The tracking number is CWBRN-27091
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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/03 19:20:59 (permalink)
    Now I can't even get this to work reliably within a single project. I've followed the steps described above and the destination bus just does not receive the pasted envelope.  I've double-checked that I've (Ctrl-A)+(Blue'd Track Number) to selected the destination track; Now time at 0:00:00... I don't know where it is going. SONAR thinks it has pasted something.
    I'll try to reproduce this starting with an empty project.
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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/03 19:51:53 (permalink)
    I can reproduce this problem with a new, clean project:

    Here we have two busses "Bus Source" and "Bus Destination", each sending to their own dedicated FX bus: "FX1" and "FX2"
    I have an envelope controlling the FX1 send on Bus Source, and I wish to copy-paste it to FX2.
    1. Ctrl-A
    2. Select the Bus so that "B" turns Blue
    3. Edit->Copy Special
    Observe that only [x] Track/Bus Automation is selected
    4. Ctrl-A
    5. Select Bus Destination so that "D" turns blue
    6. Edit->Paste Special

    7. Press OK.
    Observe: Nothing. I do not see the envelope get pasted into the track.
    I've also tried creating a send envelope for FX2 Send Level in Bus Destination "D" and then performing the paste... that doesn't seem to help.
     
    If anyone can show me what I'm doing wrong here, I'd be very grateful.
     
     
     
    #15
    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/03 21:33:39 (permalink)
    Pasting from Bus Source to a Track (Track 1), however, works as advertised.
    Pasting from a Track to a Bus also appears to work.
     
    I've verified this kludge works in my "real" project as well as the simple repro one.
     
    Therefore, the work-around is: use an intermediate track as a waystation when copying an automation envelope between busses.
     
    I've submitted this as a bug.
     
    post edited by stickman393 - 2014/08/04 13:09:00
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    Splat
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/04 13:51:53 (permalink)
    I tried it and I couldn't get it work either..

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    Anderton
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/04 14:51:41 (permalink)
    Interesting kludge Stickman, thanks for that.
     
    I tried to copy and paste automation envelopes from bus to bus. What I found is sometimes it works with volume and pan automation, but I could not get it to work with parameters like ProChannel effects parameters. I submitted a bug report and as a recipe to reproduce, specifically mentioned copying PC bus compressor envelopes as that seems to fail every time (at least it has every time I've tried).

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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/04 19:52:44 (permalink)
    My bug report was confirmed as submitted to development. I guess it won't be fixed in time for X4... but it's in the system.
    So the fact that it is a "Send" envelope rather than a more common Pan or Volume... that seems to make a difference. Interesting.
     
    Thanks for reproducing, Craig, and for your own bug submission.
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    Anderton
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/04 20:34:34 (permalink)
    stickman393
    My bug report was confirmed as submitted to development. I guess it won't be fixed in time for X4... 



    You never know. I've given up trying to guess which bugs would be easy to fix and which would be difficult. Some things that seem trivial apparently require massive re-writes at the deepest and most dangerous levels of the code, while other bugs that I assume would be complex get fixed in a day.
     
    One thing I've learned for sure is giving them reproducible steps or a project that exhibits the problem really helps.

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    Splat
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/08/04 20:39:59 (permalink)
    Well as X4 isn't coming out till 2015 ;)

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    gkephart
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2014/12/24 10:28:55 (permalink)
    Glad to see I am not just insane. This has been an occasional problem for me as well, especially as I automate more and more sends to control plugins on channels. Have pulled many hairs out here when trying to copy an envelope from one lane to another. Just won't happen, even if reassigning them to common controls such as pan and volume. It merely pastes back into the lane it was copied from, after many times being sure to select the new lane that I'm desiring to copy into. Bah humbug! Oh well, thanks for noting and submitting it- it's not the biggest bug, I'm sure, just the one I happen to be fighting. Merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night!
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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2018/07/18 05:00:07 (permalink)
    Hello everyone. 
     
    I'm using the latest Cakewalk By Bandlab, and it still has the problem described above, or as near as dammit. 
    I KNEW I'd encountered this problem before but I struggled way to long before searching the forum. At which point, I found this post I made exactly four years ago and it all came flooding back to me. 
     
    I'll post an update here when I've figured out the correct sequence to follow to be able to cut-n-pate BUS envelopes between projects.
     
    #23
    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2018/07/18 05:15:49 (permalink)
    There is a big fat stupid bug in Bus envelope pasting. Maybe it's my fault for having a bus with three automated sends to other busses. 
    I can create the target sends ahead of time, or not. The pasted envelope nodes are either from a different envelope than the one I thought I was copying; or they go in as "phantom" nodes in an envelope that is not select-able, and not re-assignable. 
     
    This sucks. 
     
    I will attempt to work up a project from scratch tomorrow that duplicates the problem, because although it has to be related to CWBRN-27091 I don't think that tracking number from 2014 is going to be helpful. 
     
    #24
    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2018/07/18 08:08:32 (permalink)
    Open up your automation lanes on both source & destination tracks
     
    Create the envelope in advance in the destination track.
     
    Copy/paste directly into the correct lane

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    stickman393
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2018/07/18 16:04:14 (permalink)
    Bristol_Jonesey
    Open up your automation lanes on both source & destination tracks
    Create the envelope in advance in the destination track.
    Copy/paste directly into the correct lane



    Thanks, Bristol.
     
    I've verified that this envelope copy process gets the job done in a clean, freshly created project, with the necessary busses and sends pre-created. OK.  Now to try my actual working projects...
     
    Yeah it works there also. 
     
    I could *swear* I tried that sequence (or a variation on it) last night but obviously something was not correct.
     
    Thanks again. I hope four years from now I find this post and manage to copy the bus envelopes without feeling the need to rant on this thread again. :-)
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    Bristol_Jonesey
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    Re: Questions about pasting automation envelopes 2018/07/19 11:15:58 (permalink)
    stickman393
    Bristol_Jonesey
    Open up your automation lanes on both source & destination tracks
    Create the envelope in advance in the destination track.
    Copy/paste directly into the correct lane



    Thanks, Bristol.
     
    I've verified that this envelope copy process gets the job done in a clean, freshly created project, with the necessary busses and sends pre-created. OK.  Now to try my actual working projects...
     
    Yeah it works there also. 
     
    I could *swear* I tried that sequence (or a variation on it) last night but obviously something was not correct.
     
    Thanks again. I hope four years from now I find this post and manage to copy the bus envelopes without feeling the need to rant on this thread again. :-)




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