craigb
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Questions for the synth people out there
You know who you are! I, unfortunately, just sold my last Korg MS2000 last night (I had one with a keyboard until last night and sold my rack version about a year ago) and my Access Virus B has been on fleaBay forever 'cause I refuse to just give it away and get squat after all the fees. Both because my stupid car has been in a shop for over three months! Bah... My first question is what your general opinions are about the current software synths. Are there any that really sound like an analog synth (or, at least, an analog modelling synth like the MS2000)? If you really want to have fun with them, do they take too much computing power away from normal DAW activities? I really like being able to tweak all the dials and faders on a synth but, if the software ones have now caught up - or passed up - the abilities of the hardware ones, then I suppose I could control them with my last remaining keyboard (a Korg N5) or with a MIDI keyboard, etc. Which software synths do you think are the best of the current bunch? Are there any that you can buy and use as is, or do they all have annoying iLoks or similar protection devices? So, what do you think?
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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craigb
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 20:36:45
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I guess I should also mention that I'm much more an electronica user than a keyboard player. I like to make drones and textures with lots of arp and oscillator abuse usage. Not sure if that makes much of a difference, but there you go. The MS2000's can do a LOT of things. Their biggest limitation was the polyphony - only four notes but, outside of that, it had more abilities than the software synths I've used (albeit very old ones by now - heck, remember I'm still only on SONAR Producer v4!).
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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tbosco
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 21:05:54
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craigb, There really are quite a few, and to me, each one really has it's own flavor... so beauty is in the ear of the beholder... ya know? I have Zeta2, a free version of Alchemy, the ones that come with Sonar, and of course the ones that are in Komplete (Massive, Reaktor, etc.... Massive is hugely popular in dubstep)....and no 2 sound alike. Based on some songs I've heard recently, the Virus sounds good and I'd like to add it to my collection at some point. Tone 2, u-he, and FabFilter make some that are worth listening to as well. I'm sure I left out a few.
Cheers! Tony SONAR Platinum JNCS Computer with Asus X99 Motherboard (i7) Win10 Pro 64bit, 32GB RAM Motif XF7, Komplete 11, Ozone 7, Komplete Kontrol 88 keys, Softube Console 1, PreSonus Faderport 8, Focusrite ISA 430 Mk 2 Mic Pre, Yamaha HS8s and Sub Drawmer 3.1 Monitor Controller Fractal Axe FX 2 XL Guitar Processor Lots-o-Guitars
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Rain
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 21:14:24
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I am a guitar player first, but w/ an addiction to classic synth sounds and odd pads and drones. I'm more inclined to listen to Kraftwerk, Depeche Mode and Nine Inch Nails than guitar music most of the time. My first stop is usually the synths bundled w/ my DAW and I try to stick to them as often as I can. But I still have a couple of 3rd party which are hard to replace. Steinberg's Retrologue. It won't do the over the top stuff that Diva and others may do, it doesn't have a built-in arp or sequencer, but for analog-type of synth sound, it's one of the very best I've heard. Clean but warm and vibrant. I don't usually recommend buying plugs from Steinberg, but that one is a true gem, and only $50. Besides that, the Cakewalk synths (Rapture, Dimension and Z3ta) I still use quite a bit - for anything evolving or odd or on the harsh side, they're still my go to. Z3ta is quite a monster synth. Did you check the Korg Legacy stuff? I've had them on my watch list for quite some time. They're also very attractively priced, like $50 a piece or under $200 for the whole bundle (M1, MS-20, PolySix, etc...)
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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craigb
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 21:43:49
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Wow, thanks for the replies! I didn't know that Korg even had software synths. Since that Steinberg plugin is missing some of the options I'd use, can you use more than one of these together so that a second synth can arpeggiate the Retrologue for example? In my head I'm not really getting why the software-based synths sound that much different from each other and I also have that notion that, since it IS only software, that you should be able to do everything seven ways from Sunday and in multiples (need five LFO's for some weird reason? No problem!). I wonder if the limitations are from trying to model the hardware based versions too closely or if there's another reason...
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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sharke
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 22:24:05
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JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 23:00:05
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For a modern type synth Z3ta 2+ is very good, the presets may lead you to the conclusion is a EDM synth but once you start programming its very versatile. I have Komplete and I have only scratched the surface. There are some very good, complex synths in there. I tend to prefer the "vintage" sound so GForce's Minimonsta, is the one I use the most, its still 32 bit but they are in the process of releasing 64 bit versions. There is a simple serial number registration. Its a reasonably straight forward Mini Moog emulation with added features such as patch morphing and the ability to go polyphonic. I have and really like Korg's software MonoPoly but I have been dogged with it loosing its licence and needing frequent re-authorization. I am hoping it will behave better on my new DAW. For analogue sounds U-He's Diva really impressed me and is on my wish list. If I did not have so many software synths already I would buy it now.
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Rain
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 23:27:47
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In regards to Retrologue - as far as I know I don't think so. Though you could probably use a MIDI arp in Sonar? Another one which I haven't mentioned - Arturia's Minimoog - which I grabbed for free last summer when they were giving it. (Funny, I'm actually working on a song right now, and these are the only 2 synths I'm using so far - and the variety of sounds I'm getting is amazing.) I don't know why they sound different but the do - kind of like fx plug-ins. Most of my hardcore analog synth friends complain about filters in virtual synths. Me, I couldn't tell what exactly what depends on what, but in terms of pure synth sound, Minimoog and Retrologue are favorites among those I own and/or have heard. What I mean is that, there are others which will impress me w/ the complexity of the patches, layers of sounds, depth, effects and all - just hitting a note and you get 20 song ideas. But the above-mentionned have that little something - you can play the simplest sound and it just sounds so alive.
TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
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slartabartfast
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/23 23:49:41
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For several decades now, most free standing keyboard synths and sound modules have been digital. The fact that the digital programming is in firmware instead of loading from a hard drive is pretty much irrelevant to the sound, or the ability to control parameters. Those knobs and buttons on most keyboards are just outputting digital data, not affecting analog circuits like the old pots and resistors. About the only analogue control is on the analogue output stage where volume is usually the only thing controlled. Most likely the majority of keyboard synths you have used are softsynths in a box with keys. The big keyboard DAW's are not just a single synth, obviously, but a computer with multiple synths and romplers, recording and editing features, and effects. To replace one of those you need something like Sonar running on a PC. Most sane users of outboard gear would not have used more external synths simultaneously than the number of softsynths that contemporary DAW's will run. So if the issue is can the features in freestanding synth modules be duplicated in PC software, the answer is yes. Pretty much anything that was being done in a digital keyboard synth can be done in a PC. Not everything is being done in a PC, but that has more to do with copyright issues and the access to the code used in the keyboards, and the contemporary fashion in sound than it has to do with the nature of the box they are in.
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soens
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 00:05:07
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I don't know anything about this, but if I may ask... Can you use a keyboard with knobs and sliders to control a softsynth's parimeters as if they were it's own? On a side note, I still feel that real synths produce better quality sounds than softsynths. I've even inserted the actual sample wav file into it's own track and played it against the same sample through a vsti track. The sound is diferent, to my ears anyway.
post edited by soens - 2013/02/24 00:09:03
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craigb
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 00:17:07
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I definitely understand that Slart, but whatever is powering the free-standing synth isn't trying to manage anything other than producing sound from the synth. They also do have electronics in them that can influence the sounds (I've got friends that make stomp pedals and they're always going on about how using one diode over another makes a huge difference). That said, I also realize I don't have any true analog synths (I love their sound, but not the cost, hassle, short-comings and having to tune them). So, I'm just curious where synth technology has gotten to and what people find is good. And, I haven't been disappointed! Lots of good suggestions to investigate. I'm like Rain from the sound of it, but I also like the ability to do some EDM if I want. I'm not looking for a synth to simply produce a nice strings sound, I'd like to be able to produce lots of fun stuff too.
Time for all of you to head over to Beyond My DAW!
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Rain
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 01:30:58
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I do believe that they sound different - just like an amp model from POD Farm sounds different from the exact same model on a POD. Whether it's the additional conversion or whatever, I have no clue. In fact, in order to get closer to the hardware using POD Farm - and other amp sims - I had to integrate a hardware compressor in the signal chain to give a bit of that bite to the sound. Similarly, there are many cases where I actually prefer a sampled version of the synth (as long as it's properly done) to models. In fact, my sampler is by far the most crucial instrument in my DAW. I write entire tracks w/ nothing but EXS-24. On the PC, I used to rely mostly on DiscoDSP's HighLife - which was free for a while. No advanced features for multi GB libraries like scripting and such, but a more direct/old school approach.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 04:34:24
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For analogue sounds U-He's Diva really impressed me and is on my wish list. This one, an analogue sounding monster with lots of modern refinements and original ideas. If you only get one then go for this one. For bargain basement coolness then any of the Korg legacy ones at $49 a pop are no-brainers. I'm not so sold on the analogue ones of those but man you can get a proper M1 or Wavestation for that price and of course with the digital stuff they are indeed complete bit for bit replicas.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2013/02/24 04:37:17
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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slartabartfast
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 04:37:47
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I'm not looking for a synth to simply produce a nice strings sound, I am not aware of any synth that can do that in any case. Pure synthetic pseudo-strings are among the most difficult challenges. Bells and brass seem to be easier to simulate. My philosophy is that if it can be done by a performer on a wood and wire instrument, then the only excuse for trying to do it electronically is to save money. Even the best samplers/libraries (and I do not consider sample playing to be synthesis) do not have the subtlety of a good performer. It seems a major shame that given the almost infinite sonic palette available from a computer, much of the computer produced music we hear is just playback of recordings of a couple of dozen ancient instruments. Some interesting sounds can certainly be had by processing wave forms from sampled acoustic instruments. That is the strong point of a hybrid sampler/synth like Rapture. If you have the time and interest, programmable synths like Z3TA are much more interesting. The downside is that you tend to find all your time making sound, and less time making music. If you have not read this free book by Simon Caan, that would be the place to start scroll down the page for the link for the free pdf. His Cakewalk Synthesizers (not free but worth the price) is the best approach to the Cakewalk synths. http://noisesculpture.com/how-to-make-a-noise-a-comprehensive-guide-to-synthesizer-programming
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slartabartfast
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 04:48:54
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Can you use a keyboard with knobs and sliders to control a softsynth's parimeters as if they were it's own? That depends on what the knobs and sliders are controlling. Many (but not all) contemporary keyboard synths have the ability to send controller data from the device to a computer. Almost invariably control is by MIDI over either dedicated midi outputs or via midi data through a USB or other data connection. In that case the keyboard can be used as a MIDI controller, and if the softsynth is capable of accepting mapped MIDI from an external controller to the parameter you want to control, then it can be done.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 04:53:37
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soens I don't know anything about this, but if I may ask... Can you use a keyboard with knobs and sliders to control a softsynth's parimeters as if they were it's own? . In most cases, yes. For example I have my A-800 mapped to control Minimonsta. Pretty much every control in Minimonsta has an assigned cc so you can map it out however you want. There are 17 controls, not enough controls for every single parameter but you probably would not want to control everything in real time anyway. You should also be able reassign things line aftertouch to control a parameter, filter cutoff or modulation depth are the most obvious.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 04:54:16
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There's one more thing that affected my choice in that I looked at acquiring a few soft synths at one time and for the same price I ended up getting on the Reason path. Not only did it have 3 very useful synths built in it had a complete virtual studio rack full of supporting devices which turn it into to a standalone sound designers wet dream, not only is it standalone but rewired into a DAW it becomes basically a 64 channel multi-out VST that covers pretty much all of my sound creation requirements in a single easy to use package.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 04:57:42
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Don't forget many of the synths mentioned have demo versions so you can give them a reasonable workout before deciding what to buy.
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soens
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 07:23:02
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 08:54:37
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my stable of synths is limited. they include: Native Instruments Komplete: Kontakt, Battery, Absynth, Massive, FM8, Reaktor, Guitar Rig Miroslav Orchestra East West limited silver (free version no ilok) A few of the cake sound packs for Sound Center The NI Komplete is a few hundred bucks but everything else was free or just a few bucks.... ($20 or so) The NI Komplete is well worth the money as a great place to start and in the Komplete package you save a considerable bit of money over individual purchases.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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paulo
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 09:24:37
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As Rain mentioned, Steinberg Retrologue is good for the money (as is Padshop Pro), but ..........it's Steinberg. No dongle or anything required for these, but don't expect any kind of customer service or for it to be supported for long. Nothing to lose by trying the demos - from what I recall they say min Win 7, but worked in XP just fine for me. Tone 2 stuff is good too, but quite expensive really. Z3ta+2 is quite good when it works properly, but the arp function is very temperamental despite a patch fix which claims to have addressed this (it hasn't). Pointed this out to CW several months ago - not interested it seems. For me Omnisphere is the daddy of all synths - the possibiities are just mind blowing . No demo version because it's huuuuuuuge, but check out http://www.spectrasonics.net/products/omnisphere-videos.php If you like what you see, you won't be disappointed if you buy it.
post edited by paulo - 2013/02/24 10:27:43
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jamesyoyo
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 09:33:04
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I was Guitar Center yesterday playing with the new Moog Little Fatty and man there ain't a softsynth out there that sounds like that.
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Wookiee
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 12:20:56
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Xilabs, Arturia, Korg, I use all the time. One of my tunes has 4 moog modulars a CS80 M1 and a wave station
Life is not about waiting for the storm to pass, it's about learning to dance in the rain. Karma has a way of finding its own way home.
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Moshkiae
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 14:13:27
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Hi, You are welcome to come over and play all you want on Arturia's Jupiter 8V software ... it's a lot of fun! As a teaser, I have the nine sliders and the 9 knobs on my Midi Keyboard handling various different functions on the Jupiter 8 software, adding to the flexibility ... have not quite figured out how to get the sequencer added properly, on the midi board, though, and I do think that this might be the more advanced features that require more understanding of the software ... than I can possibly handle at this time. ... like start the sequencer, and stop it ... right in the middle of the playing for example, which appears to be simpler on a hardware machine than it is on the software machine ... hopefully this is just me. The string thing is ... a different ball game ... I have played the strings from the Miroslav through my ESS- Heil speakers and they sound pretty darn good and nice ... however, I can not say that the bassoon sounds exactly like a live bassoon in my living room! But there are pretty parts and things in there, if only I knew how to combine them so two or three things could be played simultaneously!
post edited by Moshkiae - 2013/02/24 14:32:06
As a wise Guy once stated from his holy chapala ... none of the hits, none of the time ... prevents you from becoming just another turkey in the middle of all the other turkeys!
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Jonbouy
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 14:20:04
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Wookiee Xilabs, Arturia, Korg, I use all the time. One of my tunes has 4 moog modulars a CS80 M1 and a wave station ...and the Wookiee knows his synths!!! Wookiee tracks are always top notch quality, in terms of pristine output, sound choices and production.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Jonbouy
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 14:32:50
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For me Omnisphere is the daddy of all synths - the possibiities are just mind blowing . No demo version because it's huuuuuuuge, but check out http://www.spectrasonics..../omnisphere-videos.php If you like what you see, you won't be disappointed if you buy it. I might be alone in this but Omnisphere is everything I hate about software instruments. Not because it isn't capable, in fact probably the opposite as it would be hard to think of something that couldn't be done with it. Therein lies its biggest drawback. The problem is that it is huge, a waste of space, expensive and time consuming. You are more like to end up in a state of hypnosis for the next 10 years auditioning and tweaking amazing sounds that you'll never use in a production anywhere. The sounds you do end up using it will be likely that you could have put together in a couple of minutes with something you were more familiar with. If you want your mind blown then I'd agree it's impressive, if you want to get down to making some music it is the most effective flow killer on the market. The upside is that you can usually find someone that has had it for awhile and wants to out it at a decent price because it never gets used. Anyway I thought the thread was about synths not multi-gig sample libraries...
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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Jeff Evans
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 16:13:09
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I used to own a very large hardware synth setup. At one point had 53 keyboards and more rack mounted stuff. I have owned all the big name stuff too. But the soft synth world is amazing to say the least. I am very happy with how they sound. For those who think soft synths are nowhere as good as the real deal you are simply wrong and you simply have not heard the right VST's yet. Arturia stuff will give you the analog sound well and truly, end of story. (Mini Moog and Little Phatty yes all of them ) I use a range of soft synths myself. Camel Audio Alchemy has got be one of the best out there. I highly recommend you check it out. The sound libraries are amazing and it just sounds killer. Native make some killer instruments too. Prism, FM8, Absynth etc..it goes on Uhe make some amazing stuff. There are some very good free VST's too. Synth1 and Superwave P8 are really excellent. Omnispehere is not where it is at. It is overpriced and the patches are so complex you cannot use them! The designer has lost the plot there. You are much better off using a far less complicated sounding VST and layering things up yourself to create the rich texture you are after. Alchemy can do all the atmospheric stuff easily as well as Ominsphere but it offers much more. Korg make some fantastic VST's too. They have modelled their own analog stuff very very very well. Their M1 and Wavestation plugins are simply breathtaking. One reviewer put the Wavestation VST as better than the original. I had both for a while and I agreed with him. The plugin sounds ridiculous! And remember it is still the music itself that is the most important, If the music is really great then the listener is not going to sit back and think Hmmm he has done all that with soft synths! If the music is great and touches the listener emotionally it has achieved what it has intended to do. That fact that music may have been made with hardware of software is actually of no consequence.
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sharke
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 16:52:51
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+1 for Prism. It's such an interesting synth. I'm about 10% of the way in figuring out how it works....
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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SongCraft
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 17:02:09
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I don't have hard, I've gone all soft.... I think my fav for at the moment is Dune, good bang for the dollar, the filters are top-notch and it's real easy to get just about any sound to sit nicely in the mix. The synth-strings are awesome. Love it. If I was going to get hardware synths I'll probably get, Arturia Origin 61 Note Keyboard and the Arturia Mini Brute and a Moog Little Phatty Stage 2 and a Roland GAIA SH-01 and a Yamaha MOX8 and a Korg MS-20 Mini and a Novation UltraNova and a Dave Smith Prophet 12 and a maybe a Tom Oberheim and a Waldolf. After that loan I'll probably skip the country and move to Belize under an assumed name. .
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Jeff Evans
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- Joined: 2009/04/13 18:20:16
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Re:Questions for the synth people out there
2013/02/24 17:07:26
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I agree sharke too about Prism. I am in awe of that beast. I have got into it a bit and the more you do the more interesting it becomes as well. It is slightly digital or slightly cold sounding. You have to some processing on it if you want to really warm it up but you can though. Check out how the harmonics are moving around horizontally!! Wow. (no hardware in the universe can do that!) Another fine example of how VST instruments can be made that no hardware device could even conceive. That is what is so interesting about virtual instruments. No limit to what they can do and they update them too and you get all these extra features you did not have before. Something hardware cannot do easily. The Arturia Mini Moog for example can be put into polyphonic mode. Try doing that with the real thing! Or you can put 16 oscillators onto one note and detune them all slightly, impossible to do that with a Mini Moog, Voyager or little Phatty. Also to the OP download the free Alchemy player (latest too is 1.55) They give you about a gig worth of free sounds to get you up and running. I am a player user myself (the player is so awesome I have not felt the need to get the full version just yet!) but am pretty close to getting the full deal though. I want to start tweaking a bit more. Play with the mix pads and just marvel at what you will hear. On hardware though a few killer things come to mind. Kurzweil K2000 is still one of the best sounding instruments in the whole world, STILL NOW!!! Roland JD800 is amazingly incredible to listen to as well. I think it is one of the best Roland synths ever made for some reason. Of course all that modular stuff too is great but it can be emulated though. EMU samplers are hard to beat too. But I am sure there are many virtual equivalents to the the humble EMU sampler. It is reliable though and does not tax your CPU one little bit and yet it sounds so killer and it can do SOOOO much!
post edited by Jeff Evans - 2013/02/24 17:13:20
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