Guest
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R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
Hi, I'd like a critique please. Assembing the bits and would like your thoughts on the song and arrangement.. first time i've written 4-part harmony in a while ... and never did well on it in school either ;-) Talk To Me Girl credits: vocals: sowande backvox: sowande and jeff sax and horns: charley .. charley arranged the horns .. done good imho rhodes & synths: jeff drums: .. their own digital selves as usual, the mix is the best i can do, which is nearly always sub-par .. but, other people fix them ;-) tried get the horn and backvox to sit, but may have cut the horns too much. thanks, jeff
post edited by jmarkham - 2005/04/14 01:58:17
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kiwisdontdrinktea
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 03:09:47
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Well you know I'm only here hobbying so for what it's worth. I liked the echoey (pipe) effect in the beginning and Bit of a Steeley Dan feel? Except that organ synth/arrangement didn't punch like Steeley Dan on Hey 19?. Maybe was not the intent. I liked the harmonies, especially at the beginning. I think the vocal needs chorus girls 'on your mind and your heart'. The drums need variation especially when you sing got what you need, that is a punchy part but the song just keeps on beating away smoothly, that needs some emphasis. OK hope it was helpful. Just my 2cts. [Edit]: Oh I really liked the song. Should have mentioned that.
post edited by kiwisdontdrinktea - 2005/04/14 03:10:44
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mlavin00
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 09:35:13
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Nice song Jeff. I think the overall tone definately has a Steeley Dan quality about it. Very soothing. You need to axe the drums though. It sounds like an old casio keyboard. I assume that you will be hiring Frank or Steve to do the drums? Either way, they detract from the otherwise solid performances by all the musicians. The harmonies sound good. Well done.
Mitch
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Abbey
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 09:43:20
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You've got the touch Jeff.
Jeff
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Guest
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 10:47:16
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hi all,
thanks for the comments:
i'm still toying with the drums .. part of me wants to do electronic but
perhaps a tightly compressed kit would get the same heavy drive.
anyways, i completely agree the monotony of the drums has to
be changed. that's the one part that isn't as far along.
well, i'm a huge donald fagen fan .. everytime i try to write something
that's different, it always winds up sounding like his stuff somehow ..
but maybe that's not a bad thing. you know, i don't recall any organ
on hey-19 ... i think that was all rhodes and the backing was all
larry carlton on guitar ... have to check my liner notes again.
thanks much for the comments .. i think i'll bring the horns up a bit.
i'm real happy with the sax solo .. that part just shines..
jeff
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chaz
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 11:44:17
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as usual, the mix is the best i can do, which is nearly always sub-par .. but, other people fix them ;-) tried get the horn and backvox to sit, but may have cut the horns too much Do not worry too much about these things, Jeff, as I will take care of them when I mix the tune. The vox is still badly out of tune in places, so you may want to re-address those places.... again. BTW..... I have said this to you before and will repeat myself..... I think the drums actually fit and drive the song. And you may lose that should you go with live drums. Just my opinion, though.
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onevision
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 11:47:21
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Terrific song Jeff, definetly Steely Dan influenced.
Have to agree with Mitch on the casio keyboard sounding drums, most definetly to synthetic.
Drums apart great performance by all, well done.
Oh and mix sounded fine to me.
Dave.
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ed_mcg
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 12:16:44
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Overall structure / arrangement is great.
Definitely bump the horns up, they are excellent and really add.
I really like the oozy vocal harmonies, the lead vox may have gone a stray, but the tune is a challenge.
I'm still hearing the delayed echoed low notes on the left that's smudging the beat.
Phil Woods, step aside, we gots Charley on the job... ;-)
There's a rhythmic awkwardness coming out of the solo at 2:22-24, fewer notes will cut a deeper groove.
Really excellent song. Folks will be making babbies to this one. (Can I say that here?<g>)
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michael japan
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 13:02:30
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Windows 10/64 bit/i7-6560U/SSD/16GB RAM/Cakelab/Sonar Platinum/Pro Tools/Studio 1/Studio 192/DP88/MOTU AVB/Grace M101/AKG Various/Blue Woodpecker/SM81x2/Yamaha C1L Grand Piano/CLP545/MOX88/MOTIF XS Rack Rack/MX61/Korg CX3/Karma/Scarbee EP88s/ Ivory/Ravenscroft Piano/JBL4410/NS10m/Auratones/Omnisphere/Play Composers Selection/Waves/Komplete Kontrol
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ed_mcg
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 13:09:38
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Or babies Absolutely wonderful little beings! 
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hornplayer
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 13:49:47
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Phil Woods, step aside, we gots Charley on the job... ;-)
There's a rhythmic awkwardness coming out of the solo at 2:22-24, fewer notes will cut a deeper groove. Phil Woods, huh? Well, that's probably about the best compliment I could get! Thanks. I love his tone especially. As to the rhythmic akwardness, I have to say this: No, there USED to be a rhythmic akwardness going into the last verse. However, after listening to it 63 times, it has disappeared. Kinda like how your dorm USED to stink when you got back from spring break. Then after a few days, everything smells ok again. Until someone walks in and says, "Dude, did something die in here?" "No, man, but it used to smell real bad in here a couple a days ago..." I'm going to disagree with Chaz for the first time that I can remember. I may be proven wrong later. However, I would like to hear this with live drums. This song is sounding very Becker/Fagen to me, and it just seems to lend itself to drums.
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ed_mcg
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 16:19:21
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No, man, but it used to... Charley, you've been hanging with Mr. Markham too much: You guys are cracking me up!
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rolo95
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 16:27:42
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LOL ED....
-----------------------------------------------------
THERE IS NO POWER Without KNOWLEDGE !!!
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Guest
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 16:37:59
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hi guys,
yea, i still have to do a little more melodyne work on sowande's vox.
it's funny, cause he has no intonation problems without headphones on ..
and then he drifts listening back .. maybe i'll have to track w/o
headphones next time. but, i don't like to take every last pitch thing
out because it becomes inhuman at a certain point.
and the bass ... it's the monophonic patch i'm using .. i split
the keyboard L/R the bass if tracking my left hand and
it sometimes jumps up or down as a finger lifts. but, i have
the midi of it, so i'll just edit it out and redo that ..
i'll have to listen during the solo .. but i've got the same
problem charley does .. only i do laundry less frequently.
and the scripture ... some have been industrious
in this regard .. and you know who you are ;-)
thanks for the comments ... i'll work on it some more,
jeff
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chaz
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 19:31:26
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I'm going to disagree with Chaz for the first time that I can remember. I have no problem with that whatsoever, Charley. It was bound to happen sooner or later. I just stated my opinion, that's all. If Jeff is wanting the drums to have a R&B feel, the electronic drums is what is predominantly used these days. And though it would be interesting to see what a live drummer would do, I still do not think they will give it the same feel. Even so, I will work with whatever Jeff sends to me to mix and do the best I can with it.
post edited by chaz - 2005/04/14 19:34:40
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Sonic
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 20:49:01
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ORIGINAL: chaz
I'm going to disagree with Chaz for the first time that I can remember.
I have no problem with that whatsoever, Charley. It was bound to happen sooner or later. I just stated my opinion, that's all.
If Jeff is wanting the drums to have a R&B feel, the electronic drums is what is predominantly used these days. And though it would be interesting to see what a live drummer would do, I still do not think they will give it the same feel. Even so, I will work with whatever Jeff sends to me to mix and do the best I can with it.
Let me know if you need any help, Chaz! 
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chaz
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/14 21:24:50
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Will do, Mike.
post edited by chaz - 2005/04/14 21:25:42
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hornplayer
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/15 02:31:41
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If Jeff is wanting the drums to have a R&B feel, the electronic drums is what is predominantly used these days. And though it would be interesting to see what a live drummer would do, I still do not think they will give it the same feel. I don't really disagree with this statement, and I trust your judgement on what is "in style" these days. Also, let me go on record as saying that I don't hate electronic drums for styles that call for them. I think what it boils down to is that I am just hearing this more "jazz-pop" than "R&B". So, Jeff, if you really want to go R&B, use the electronic drums, but you might want to get some help with programming and sounds. But, you already know that... Fortunately, you have aligned yourself with some talented folk, so I'm sure it's going to be great! I'm still digging "Home at Last." Cheers! 
post edited by hornplayer - 2005/04/15 02:35:49
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chaz
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/15 11:23:23
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Charley,
I was going by what Jeff has told me personally, as well as his subject title in his initial post. But yes, this tune has more of a "jazz-pop" feel than "r&b-pop".
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Guest
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/15 19:15:06
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boy george and culture club!
i have failed you master .... actually, i never listened to boy george much .. i couldn't get past the poorly applied eye-liner .. so i'll have to your word for it... jeff
post edited by jmarkham - 2005/04/15 19:33:04
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M
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/16 15:20:15
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Hi, Jeff!
I almost missed this one! Like the melody, changes, and backing voices. Charley is a constant (how many times can I praise you, Charley?).
I wouldn't have said "badly out of tune," but, yeah, the lead is out of tune in several places. It *is* a difficult melody, due to the changing tonal centers.
I thought you needed a little something to point up the "hook" part -- "Talk to me girl . . . " It doesn't really stand out, arrangement-wise, from the verses. And the backing voices (I think those are voices) at the end vamp are cooler than what's happening earlier in the tune under the hook. Actually, on third listen, I hear that they're present, but mixed much lower earlier in the tune. Bring those out, brother! They create an additional, sonic hook, I think.
FWIW, I'm in the "sounds like an old casio keyboard" camp, with respect to the drums. I like that stuff for some things; but it doesn't fit on this, IMHO. To me, it makes the track sound very much like "Here's the demo of the song I just wrote." You're the artist, though.
And, hey Sonic -- what were you offering to help Chaz with? The mixing? The drums? Just curious.
M
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chaz
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/16 19:23:57
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From what folks tell me, I am beyond help, Mark.  Anyway..... Mike was referring to drum tracks. And regarding the mix..... Jeff is sending the tracks to me for the final mixing once he has all of the tracks where he wants them.
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AndyZee
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/17 10:19:01
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Hey Jeff great track - I have to agree with Chaz on the drums - I kind of dig them!
Drop me an email and I'll run something by you, just a thought...
(I assume you still have my email, if not Bluegrass AT netspace DOT net DOT au)
Cheers,
Andy
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M
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/18 00:16:29
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Yeah, I figured you were mixing, Chaz-meister! I just didn't know if Sonic played drums or wanted to replace the drums or whatever. Can't wait to hear the final. . . I'm liking it so far! Jeff got a new keyboard, though. He's probably going to blast organ riffs all over this now! M
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reallifer
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/18 01:05:58
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Awesome
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jsykes
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/18 22:13:07
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Jeff: Really enjoyed this song. Sowande has a good voice. Needless to say, the rhodes and the sax are my favorite parts. I agree the horns could be louder in places. (listening 2nd time, man that sax solo is great!) On the drums, I think once the groove gets going, I don't notice the mechanical sounds so much, but it is a bit artificial in the beginning. I think there is a style called Miami that comes with my Guitar Tracks loops. I point this out because it is marked by a deep, lasting kick, that would fit well with this. Like I said, it's not noticeable after the song starts. Great song. jsykes Edit: My wife loves this song "It's just good music to listen to." she says.
post edited by jsykes - 2005/04/18 22:20:04
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Guest
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/19 11:43:33
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hi jsykes,
i have bowed to consensus .. and had drums done more properly
on this one . will repost when i get it layed in a little better.
thanks for the listen .. and my gratitude to your wife .. it's
quotes like hers that keep me hammerin' away !
jeff
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hornplayer
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/20 03:17:02
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M & jsykes: Thanks very much for saying nice things about me! Glad you like the sax. Jeff made it extremely easy for me! Ok...off to beddie bye...
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chaz
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/20 04:25:48
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Charley,
I think this is the first time I will be mixing something on which you have tracked. I missed mixing "Haight Street" because I was on vacation, but hopefully we will have an opportunity to work together on something someday.
God bless.
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hornplayer
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RE: R&B - Talk To Me Girl (arrangement critique)
2005/04/20 12:35:28
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I think this is the first time I will be mixing something on which you have tracked. I missed mixing "Haight Street" because I was on vacation, but hopefully we will have an opportunity to work together on something someday. Great! I am looking forward to hearing your mix on this! See ya!
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