BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
Might be a problem. Can someone check to see if a 23.976 fps video actually matches up with the SMPTE time ruler after the first second? I took the same video re-encoded it to 24 fps and everything matched up. Thanks, Brian
post edited by BrianSzep - 2011/08/16 18:24:59
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Jimbo 88
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 00:37:53
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In Sony Vegas I just created an approx 10 minute video segment and used 23.976 fps to test for you. After loading into Sonar everything lined up. After 10 minutes the burned in TC matched Sonar's TC so 23.976 works here. I was dying to see if this worked also.
Are you sure your video was not burned with 24 fps?
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 03:37:12
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Well, I don't know what to think. What are your settings in Sonar?
When I click on the individual frames, the right number show up in the video window but on the TV the frame numbers do not hit exactly on the frame boundries. I hope you get my meaning here.
-Brian
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 07:40:52
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Make sure you are selecting 23.976 as the SMPTE frame rate for the project in preferences or it wont line up.
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Jimbo 88
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 09:58:26
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Hey Brian,
No, The frame numbers do not hit hit exactly on the frame boundries, but that is not ever the case in any frame rate. That is not a Sonar issue, that is what happens inside computors. You will find an occassional TC number that is off a frame or maybe 2, but will be correct again later on.
You have to remember we don't actually use frames anymore. Frames where physical squares with wholes punched on film. Unless you have a piece of gear that locks 2 sources together (your picture and your music) you will get the little anomalies in your computor, but these are small enough to be tolerated and industry wide is excepted.
10 years ago if i could get 2 pieces of gear to be 10 frames off after 10 minutes without being hardwired together I was extremely happy.
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SCorey
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 10:47:11
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No, the various rulers don't line up.
You can verify this with a 23.976 video file with a timecode burn.
Step through the video from the beginning.
At frame 5, the CB timecode display shows 00:00:00:04, as does the timecode display at the upper left of the track view. The timecode ruler is 5 samples off at this point, according to the samples ruler.
Now go to frame 1000. Step through the video by using the arrow keys in the video window. The timecode ruler, samples ruler, timecode displays, and thumbnail track aren't in sync.
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SCorey
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 10:48:31
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That is not a Sonar issue, that is what happens inside computors. Well, given that other DAWs can get this right, I'd say that it's a Sonar issue.
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 15:26:49
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
Make sure you are selecting 23.976 as the SMPTE frame rate for the project in preferences or it wont line up.
Hi Noel, Thanks for dropping in. Yes, I have checked and double checked several times. Also, I took this same video file (Sonar info window reports file is 23.976 fps, its a quicktime file) and tried to export it out thru Sonar to 23.976 fps to see if something in the file was messed up. What ended up happening is that the file came back as a 24 fps file. I can't seem to export any file at 23.976 fps. Seems the export doesn't recognize it. I am going to upload some pics to show the frame boundry problem. -Brian
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 15:28:55
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SCorey
That is not a Sonar issue, that is what happens inside computors.
Well, given that other DAWs can get this right, I'd say that it's a Sonar issue.
Jim, I'm with Steve on this one. Wouldn't make sense if we can't hit at a specific frame and know absolutely that we are on the start of the frame. -Brian
post edited by BrianSzep - 2011/08/17 15:41:31
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/17 16:26:02
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24 frames/1.001001001001001001001001001001 seconds?
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 01:43:16
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Here is what I found out: Video is a 2 min black frames only mp4 file and keyframes for every frame. Zoom level to single frame. If you zoom past single frame level the ruler doesn't match up. 24 fps seems to be fine. Here is a screen shot: The screen shot is at the end of the video. All frames match up at beginning of video. 
post edited by BrianSzep - 2011/08/18 01:51:54
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 02:00:45
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Ok, this not good news either. It seems there is a problem with the 29.97 DF and NDF frame rates too. These were rendered to WMV files. Keyframes for everyframe. Zoomed to single frame view. Sync to SMPTE ruler at beginning starts to drift before the first 29.97 frames are passed. Take a look: 
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 02:07:22
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I haven't checked 25 fps but it seems the fractional frame rates are off. Math problem?
Also, there might be a problem with the 23.976 import because I get two 0 frames before the 1 frame, so that makes the burned time code off by one frame.
-Brian
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Jimbo 88
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 09:09:58
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So Brian, how do you know your variancies in TC are not happening on your video source? Are you sure your Time Code generator is dead on?
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 09:28:05
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Once the time code is "printed" to the digital stream it should stay put. Any clock drift that occurs at the recording device will be permanently committed and after that you'd have to work hard to cause drift in embedded code. It's not like the days of using analog tape playback of conformed film scans using analog time code to make transfers or playbacks. One the stuff is digitized (usually at the camera these days) the time code should be locked in. If you generate a window burn using software it reads the exact code. If you are using professional tape formats you do still have an opportunity to use the time code signal to make interconnections or window burns and you *might* have some drift if you use one of the lower cost professional playback decks. The top of the range decks are frame accurate so they can lock a frame down. I would suspect that almost everyone outside of the archival and redistribution business is working with digitally embedded time code by the time they are in post audio. I haven't thought this through yet.... but I suspect there is some opportunity for resolution errors. As I hinted to above the duration of 24 frames is a number that has to be rounded to fit into a DAWs time scale resolution. I haven't thought it through but perhaps you are seeing the results of the rounding? I wonder if Undertow has any insights? He does a lot of detailed post work... this should be something he can help with. best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/08/18 09:29:38
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SCorey
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 09:52:46
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As I hinted to above the duration of 24 frames is a number that has to be rounded to fit into a DAWs time scale resolution Except that the exact frame rate should be 24/1.001 not the extra repetitions you posted. I considered this, but the math doesn't work out with what Sonar is showing. Also, that frame rate results in an exact 2002 samples per frame at a 48kHz sample rate so no rounding would be necessary for the samples ruler. If they were using 23.976 as the frame rate instead of 24/1.001 then rounding would be necessary, but when I tried to see if that frame rate would fall out of the frame boundary ruler alignment I couldn't get it to work out.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 10:07:07
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Thanks for thinking it through Corey... 1.001 is the best a thousands of a second sample rate can do right? It's still not clear to me what happens to the extra resolution.
There is another consideration about digitally embedded time code... it may not be as locked down as I suggested above when considering GOP codecs.
Which is one reason most actual edit codecs are intraframe rather than interframe.
If that is the case the situations observed will likely be both codec and player specific.
The issue may be occurring when using distribution codecs that don't have unique frames until something reconstructs them.
best regards,
mike
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Danny Danzi
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 10:34:16
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BrianSzep
Here is what I found out:
Video is a 2 min black frames only mp4 file and keyframes for every frame. Zoom level to single frame. If you zoom past single frame level the ruler doesn't match up.
24 fps seems to be fine. Here is a screen shot: The screen shot is at the end of the video. All frames match up at beginning
of video.
Brian, I'm just curious...have you tried anything else other than mp4 format with this? I have the hardest time with those files. Sonar just doesn't like to play them right for me. Even Vegas makes them look funny. But in Sonar, I noticed the same thing as you with the time thing...yet with AVI, it doesn't seem to happen to me. I had a client send me a bunch of mp4's to clean up....I couldn't find a single pro program that I have that would handle them. I mean they load up, but the video quality looks horrible compared to just viewing them in Win Media player. I had to actually edit them through (gulp) Nero as that was the only program that seemed to let me enhance them where the video looked as it should upon importing. Once I edited through Nero and saved as an mpeg or avi, everthing was fine in Vegas and Sonar. But that mp4 format...I'm going to have to buy something better I guess. Between Vegas and Sonar, I've never had any problems before....but there is definitely something weird with these mp4's on my end. -Danny
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Jimbo 88
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 10:40:49
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Hey Mike, i know you have been around TC a lot as have I. Your observation is basically the same point I'm trying to make. Rounding errors and slight variances will occur and always have. Frames really don't exsist as they use to. We don't physically print a number onto a "frame". Slight drifts use to occur in TC all the time because TC generators rarely locked frame to frame. Where a "frame" starts and ends is different in todays technology.
Do you remember when a video frame was divided into 2 fields? And you could occassionally scroll between the field?
No one can tell if a hit starts at the top of a frame or the end of the frame. So looking this close at TC is an exercise in futility. At this point, using TC is a good reference, but thinking it will be sample accurate is not possible and a waste of time. You will never get 2 different systems to agree where each and every frames starts and stops...unless there is a machine specifically designed to regulate that process inbetween every step along the way. That includes when the TC is generated and printed on the Video.
I have scrolled frame by frame thru many pictures sent by clients. I can guarentee you will see some TC numbers doubled up on more than one frame and some numbers will be missing (and I'm very aware of Drop Frame and its purpose and usage.)
If you get to the end of a 10 minute video and a large % of your TC numbers are matching your DAWs TC numbers, you consider yourself in sync and ready to roll.
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 13:05:06
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Yes, I agree with you pretty much completely Jimbo.
I'm really just following the thread with a curiosity to see what I may learn about SONAR in particular.
all the best,
mike
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 13:16:45
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Jimbo 88
So Brian, how do you know your variancies in TC are not happening on your video source? Are you sure your Time Code generator is dead on?
Hi Jim, The tc was burned using Sony Vegas Pro 10.0e using the project frame rate. Here is a link to the 4 video files if anyone wants to check it out for themself. Video file download. I am going to recheck the 23.976 video with an mp4v codec. I thought I had used that but gspot said otherwise. -Brian
post edited by BrianSzep - 2011/08/18 14:04:46
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 13:27:54
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Brian, I'm just curious...have you tried anything else other than mp4 format with this? I have the hardest time with those files. Sonar just doesn't like to play them right for me. Even Vegas makes them look funny. But in Sonar, I noticed the same thing as you with the time thing...yet with AVI, it doesn't seem to happen to me. I had a client send me a bunch of mp4's to clean up....I couldn't find a single pro program that I have that would handle them. I mean they load up, but the video quality looks horrible compared to just viewing them in Win Media player. I had to actually edit them through (gulp) Nero as that was the only program that seemed to let me enhance them where the video looked as it should upon importing. Once I edited through Nero and saved as an mpeg or avi, everthing was fine in Vegas and Sonar. But that mp4 format...I'm going to have to buy something better I guess. Between Vegas and Sonar, I've never had any problems before....but there is definitely something weird with these mp4's on my end. -Danny Hi Danny, I don't know if your aware but quicktime is just a wrapper as is avi. Get the program gspot and it will tell you what codec is being used in the file. The mp4 files might have been encoded with one of the non standard versions. Do your AVI's match the time line? If they do can you find out what codec they are using. -Brian
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Jimbo 88
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 13:47:37
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Hey Brian, I avoid mp4 on my machine. When clients send any format i xfer it to Mpeg1 or AVI right away, cause Sonar works better with those formats.
Your attention to detail is very comendable. I understand you are trying to get your projects as perfect as they can be. But I'm only trying to point out you might be fighting a battle that can't be won, or even needs to be won. Use your picture as your absolute point and don't worry so much about your TC. There are tons of reasons why TC can't be 100% accurate.
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 13:58:56
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Jim, My concern is interchanging my files with clients who are using different hardware and programs. If I score to pic on Sonar when I export the audio is it going to line up in the editors time line on a mac? That's what I want to know... Also, if I want to have a musical hit on a specific frame I am going to have to move the time all over to make that happen. I can't rely on the rulers. After all isn't that what computers are suppose to do?  -Brian
post edited by BrianSzep - 2011/08/18 14:02:53
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SCorey
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 15:14:30
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but in Sonar, I noticed the same thing as you with the time thing...yet with AVI, it doesn't seem to happen to me. I ran all my tests with an AVI using the mjpeg codec. It has a timecode burn with timecode, frame number, elapsed time in seconds, and elapsed time in HH:MM:SS.DDD. I spot checked various frames in the video itself and all the numbers were as they should be. I checked the video in Sonar and found the same discrepancies in the rulers and timecode displays that BrianSzep has found. Jimbo 88: There are tons of reasons why TC can't be 100% accurate.
No, it can be accurate. Maybe it couldn't when using VITC and MTC and LTC and all sorts of various protocols for syncing. But when I'm only using a video file inside of Sonar and the file has each frame individually encoded, I don't think it's too much to ask for all the rulers to line up. If someone is willing to live with the inaccuracy, then that's fine. If it doesn't hurt their work, so much the better. For my work/flow I need sample accuracy to avoid errors on ac3 frame boundaries when I export my soundtracks. (Take it up with my DVD authoring guy why this is so.) I can achieve sample accuracy with the samples ruler, but why is it so much to ask that all the other rulers actually line up accurately?
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The Maillard Reaction
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 15:27:11
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Your explanation seems very straight forward Corey.
Good luck.
best regards,
mike
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Jimbo 88
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 18:18:38
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Jimbo 88
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 18:26:15
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BrianSzep
Jim,
My concern is interchanging my files with clients who are using different hardware and programs. If I score to pic on Sonar when I export the audio is it going to line up in the editors time line on a mac?
That's what I want to know...
Also, if I want to have a musical hit on a specific frame I am going to have to move the time all over to make that happen. I can't rely on the rulers. After all isn't that what computers are suppose to do?
-Brian
Hey Brian, I have scored hundreds of hours of picture using Sonar and send OMF's to mixers working in Protools on a very regular basis. If I was out of sync they would take me in the back alley way, shoot me and leave me there to die and not tell a soul.....
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BrianSzep
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/18 23:55:34
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SCorey
Jimbo 88: There are tons of reasons why TC can't be 100% accurate.
No, it can be accurate. Maybe it couldn't when using VITC and MTC and LTC and all sorts of various protocols for syncing. But when I'm only using a video file inside of Sonar and the file has each frame individually encoded, I don't think it's too much to ask for all the rulers to line up. If someone is willing to live with the inaccuracy, then that's fine. If it doesn't hurt their work, so much the better. For my work/flow I need sample accuracy to avoid errors on ac3 frame boundaries when I export my soundtracks. (Take it up with my DVD authoring guy why this is so.) I can achieve sample accuracy with the samples ruler, but why is it so much to ask that all the other rulers actually line up accurately?
Steve, Here's hoping that it won't take them long to fix. -Brian
System:i7-4770K CPU | 32 GB Ram | GTX 780 Ti 3GB | (2) PB278 27" Monitors | SSD 250GB - OS Drive | Hard DrivesSoftware:Win 10 Pro x64 | Sonar Platinum | Sound Forge 11 | Waves Diamond | Hollywood Orchestra - Diamond | EWQLSO - Gold | Storm Drum 2 Pro | Kontakt 5 | Evolve Mutations 1 & 2 | Funk Guitarist | Session Horns Pro | Razor | Skanner | Retro Mach MK2 | Vapor | EZD2 & EZK | AD2 & AK | Sytrus | Z3ta 2 | Rapture | Dimension Pro | AAS VA-2, VS-2, GS-2 | Hivewww.joeythomasbigband.com
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BrianSzep
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- Joined: 2003/11/07 09:29:30
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RE: 23.976 Frame Rate
2011/08/19 00:04:21
(permalink)
Jimbo 88
Hey Brian, I have scored hundreds of hours of picture using Sonar and send OMF's to mixers working in Protools on a very regular basis. If I was out of sync they would take me in the back alley way, shoot me and leave me there to die and not tell a soul.....
So, I take it you score to a work print. Render all tracks, effects, etc... to stems. Then you omf the completed stems? If that is the case, I can probably adjust my way of thinking until it's fixed in Sonar. I really don't want to use those other programs... -Brian
System:i7-4770K CPU | 32 GB Ram | GTX 780 Ti 3GB | (2) PB278 27" Monitors | SSD 250GB - OS Drive | Hard DrivesSoftware:Win 10 Pro x64 | Sonar Platinum | Sound Forge 11 | Waves Diamond | Hollywood Orchestra - Diamond | EWQLSO - Gold | Storm Drum 2 Pro | Kontakt 5 | Evolve Mutations 1 & 2 | Funk Guitarist | Session Horns Pro | Razor | Skanner | Retro Mach MK2 | Vapor | EZD2 & EZK | AD2 & AK | Sytrus | Z3ta 2 | Rapture | Dimension Pro | AAS VA-2, VS-2, GS-2 | Hivewww.joeythomasbigband.com
www.circuitryfilms.com
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