RMS/Peak Before and After Kick Drum

Hello Everyone,
 
I was wondering if my mix is wrong if my RMS/Peak with ALL instruments (including snares/percussion/cymbs) is -28/-14 db but when I un-mute the kick my mix goes to RMS/Peak of -22/-7 db
 
Should the kick be effecting the mix so hard like that?
 
this is electronic dance music.

Thank You,
Adam

just wanted to know if thats normal.

i guess what i am really trying to find out here is if my ratio is normal for a mix?   technically for most electronic music, if you remove the kick, does your RMS and peak take a hit like that on your master?   Or should i be aiming for a more "even" mix.   

For instance if I remove some strings or piano, the RMS and peaks dont really change on the master bus.  should the kick drum have the same effect if removed or SHOULD it be the track responsible for the peaks that i have now?

There is always going to be one (or two) elements in a mix that will create a high peak and low rms ratio. Taking them out eg kick/snare/hats will alter that. I don't think it matters. Even if you were working around  a ref level of say -20 db rms and the peaks reached as high as -4 to -6 dB FS it just means that music contains a lot of transient material.
 
Other genres won't produce the same rms to peak ratio. The real fun starts when you are mastering all this. Even if you have a great mix that is averaging -20 rms and peaks as high as -3 dB after mastering that is going to change anyway. The rms value of the mix is going to get higher and the peaks will stay much the same meaning the peaks won't be so high above your rms values.
 
Listen to some well mastered material in the same genre and open it up in an editor and have a look. You will get an idea of how loud the rms levels need to be and how high the peaks are compared to that. (after mastering of course)
 
The only way to maintain accurate and consistent rms levels throughout your signal chain is with the (rms VU) meter. Your ears in some instances will have trouble discerning even a 3 dB level change but on a (VU) meter it is very obvious.  You certainly need some decent metering especially in the mastering stages. In fact three types of metering VU, Dynamic Range and Loudness metering. The best mastering engineers dont just wing it with their ears, sorry.

For me using the sonar meters, -18 db RMS is about where I like to land, with a peak of -6db.  Use the gain structure to fix your mix-trim, try to leave the actual faders alone.  I'm not sure if you use the pro channel but if you do, use the console emulator first and have everything feed into this, this has a trim knob too. The "VU" meters should sit around -18 again. 
 
Ben

alewgro

batsbrew
use your ears,
not a meter.

hey why dont you stop being a sarcastic fu(k and maybe realize some of us are new to audio engineering and have "noob" type questions!

He's not being sarcastic, that's the best advice a "noob" can have when faced with a studio full of knobs, buttons, faders and flashing lights.  Music is art, not science. Don't be hung up by the pure data.  If it sounds the way you want it to sound, then it is right.
 
You worry about the peak levels if they start hitting the top, then you can either turn it down or put a processor on that will turn it down for you (which is what a compressor/limiter actually does).
 
 
Please mind your language, replacing a c with ( doesn't cut it..  ok?

Its kind of like, if you were asking for advice about oil painting, we would probably tell you to focus on the way it looks first.  To many seem to not really listen to what things sound like and try to do everything with plug ins, compressors, eq, limiting, etc. 
 
Jeff is giving you some great and very useful advice, but don't be afraid to also trust your ears as well. 

I think great mixing is a combination of technical and artistic stuff.  It is not one or the other.  Although I think I would prefer mixes that were done by ears more so than meters.
 
I am NOT suggesting using meters to mix.  That is not what I am saying.  The technical stuff or the place to use meters is to ensure you have got all your tracks at the right rms levels first. (Then you will always have available the right amount of any track at your disposal to provide a great mix)
 
Then you assign say a bunch of tracks to a buss.  The balance of the tracks that arrives at that buss is purely ears and skill and art.
 
But once you have got a nice balance using your ears, it certainly does not hurt to check your buss levels using a meter again to make sure your buss mixes are sitting at the right levels.
 
The way multiple buses combine to form a total mix is art again and ears stuff for sure.  But it does not hurt to check your final mix levels using a meter to make sure it too is at the reference level.
 
I see it as using both skills.  The meters don't tell you much about how loud the drums should be in your EDM track.  Only your ears can tell you that information.  Some well known mix engineers have been known to mix roughly using VU meters.  You sort of can do it. eg bringing in your drum buss first into your total mix and set that level using the VU meter eg peaking -3 dB etc.. Then as you add stuff in you end up with a full mix hitting 0 dB VU but that too is still artistic stuff when you think about it.  The meter in this case is just making sure your mix is roughly at the ref level when its all in there.  Instead of it overshooting level wise and then you have to turn all your tracks down a tad to get the level right on the master buss. (many people get into trouble here!! keeping an eye on your final mix levels will prevent this happening)
 
Metering final mixes is actually smart because when it comes to mastering all your tracks are already pretty even and very close to each other.  You do tend to use the meters a little more in mastering because you want everything to and up nice and even without any tracks popping out level wise for any reason or getting lost etc..You can use your ears for this too but usually in conjunction with the meters in mastering.

Ben I totally agree with you on that one. I think you can use visual cues and your ears. I do! Why not, more information. I agree there are so many places in a mix where visual cues are important. eg compressor settings for sure.  What I don't agree with is the people who say just use your ears man because that is all you need. Not true.
 
Another aspect of using visual cues as well is how the VU meter dances over a final mix. eg ballistics. This is an area where most people have no interest or understanding. Yet if they did learn it you realise it is almost a revelation.  Well mixed and mastered music always makes the VU move a certain way. Amateur mixes do NOT move the VU meter the right way at all.
 
As Dave points out too meters can tell you bad things. eg when a VU meter swings wildly and overshoots etc it means something is off eg subsonics or poor dynamics settings.  Once you track down the culprit and dial it in, the meter starts moving real nice. But you do need real VU's in this case though. The VST's have not quite got ballistics right just yet. (Klanghelm is close though)

I tell you one area where it is good to close your eyes.  If you have done a lot of detailed editing in just one area for example in your arrangement.  Lots of cuts, joins, crossfades, some tricky automation.  All just in one little spot. So you cue up 2 or 4 bars back from there and hit play and listen.
 
If you watch the cursor go right over all the areas of interest and you can see all the details there, I find sometimes you hear more than what is actually going on there. Imaginary glitches etc..
 
Now try backing up again, close your eyes and just drift into a listening state and even put out of your mind all the work you did do in just that one spot for a minute. No visual input, just sound. It will sound better and more often than not, perfect too.
 
I find I can EQ without looking at any curves eg a Pultec EQ. eg it says a dip at 500 Hz so you move it there and start turning and hearing.  But I also like having the EQ curve in front of me too. I like the fact the shape of the bell is easily seen and heard perhaps.  Not sure about compressors though (in terms of visual input) . With them I reckon it is best to do the null test with those and 'listen' to how the compressor recacts around the kicking in and letting go points.
 
I still love the way a VU meter needle dances on a nice hardware VU meter over a great mix and a well mastered track.  It just moves in a sort of liquid way and does not do anything sporadic.  To me this is excellent visual info about a mix or mastered track.  When it is moving wildly it usually means something is out of whack.