Cybertizzen
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Random MIDI out latency
I've just acquired my first hardware analog synth (MFB Dominion X), but am having some troubles triggering it from Sonar X3:
1: I've tried connecting the Dominion directly to my Axiom 25 midi controller: When playing it from the keyboard, it doesn't seem to have any delay, but when using the Axiom as a midi interface with Sonar, a random delay on the triggered notes appear. The delay is so high that it leaves the synth unusable (up to about 1/8th variation at 170bpm)
2. I've also tried connecting the synth to my the MIDI port of my PCIe RME HDSPe AIO audio card. Same result.
3. Flicking things like "transmit MTC" and MIDI sync on an off sometimes appear to have a short-time effect, but that may very well be coincidence.
I'm not sure if the problem lies in Sonar, but was wondering if anyone here have experienced similar difficulties?
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/05/31 10:20:54
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☼ Best Answerby Cybertizzen 2014/05/31 12:18:36
It may be some settings in Sonar that are producing this delay, or it may be caused by one or more effects in a given project, or a combination of both.
Try the following settings for recording in Sonar:
Audio interface: Sample Rate 48 k, ASIO Buffer of 128
Sonar: Driver Mode of ASIO, Sample Rate of 48 k, Record Bit Depth of 24 bits.
The above is based on your having an audio interface. IF you do not have an audio interface, I urge you to consider getting one.
You want to end up with a combination of settings that give you a Sonar-reported Total Roundtrip Latency of around 10 milliseconds, or just a little under that. This will greatly reduce lag/latency when trying to record, such as the problems you are reporting.
Once you apply the above settings, try them out in a project without any effects, just to make sure it all plays OK in as simple a project as possible.
It is important to understand that certain effects, by design, add MASSIVE latency to projects, and are NOT meant to be loaded into projects while recording. These effects are instead meant for mixing/mastering, and will require the ASIO Buffer Size to be set WAY higher than for recording (1024 is common). Effects such as Perfect Space and Boost 11 are examples of effects that add lots of latency, and are not meant to be used during recording.
So, try out the settings and post back. :)
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Cybertizzen
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/05/31 12:20:56
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I tried triggering the synth from an empty project, and that did indeed remove the lag. When reducing my buffer size from 256 to 128, I get a reported round-trip latency of 8.8ms in Sonar (I have to use 44.1 as my Kemper's SPDIF out won't play nice unless it's clock master, and it only supports 44.1).
This seemed to help a bit in my "loaded" project, but it's still not acceptable. My projects tend to have quite high track counts, with Slate VCC on all tracks and buses, in addition to Waves MPX and compressor-plugs on some of the buses. I guess a workaround will be to create separate, MIDI-only projects for triggering external devices, and importing the recorded audio from these.
Thank you for your help!
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/05/31 14:38:34
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☄ Helpfulby Cybertizzen 2014/05/31 14:45:11
I think your effects are likely the cause of your lag.
44.1 k is fine, by the way. I usually suggest 48 k just because it is a little better, but no biggie.
Take your loaded project, then hit 'E' which will toggle off/on all effects. If your lag goes away with that, then it is caused by one or more of the effects, and not the number of tracks. (hit 'E' again to turn effects back on).
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Cybertizzen
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/05/31 14:48:58
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You're right. Bypassing all the effects solves the problem. Then comes the task of finding the effect(s) that cause it.
Do you think it is likely to be a single effect that is the culprit, or is it typically a cumulative problem?
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scook
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/05/31 14:51:03
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☄ Helpfulby Cybertizzen 2014/05/31 14:51:58
The usual suspects included with SONAR are LP-64 EQ, LP-64 MultiBand, TS-64 Transient Shaper and Perfect Space. Also from Cakewalk the Concrete Limiter. Any 3rd party plug-in that uses a look ahead buffer.
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Cybertizzen
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/05/31 14:55:38
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Allright, thanks again - You've all been very helpful :)
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/05/31 15:27:21
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Here's the scoop:
Some effects are designed to be used AFTER you finish recording, and move into the mixing/mastering phases. These effects, due to how they do their thing, add MASSIVE latency to projects, and that means you can't really track/record with them present, because of the added latency.
Perfect Space and Boost 11 are a couple of examples of these kinds of plugins.
When you are mixing, it is perfectly fine to adjust your ASIO Buffer Size to be as high as 1024, if needed, to compensate for the added latency of mixing plugins. But, when recording, you want to keep your latency down to at or under 10 milliseconds, for lag-free recording.
If needed, temporarily swap out some of the latency-intensive plugins, just until you are done with your recording of tracks, then you can add them back in for mixing.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Cybertizzen
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 01:45:17
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But this has only been a problem for me when triggering external MIDI modules from Sonar and playing VSTis from an external MIDI controller.
The latency has never been a problem when recording live percussion, vocals, guitars or other stuff in projects with the same plugins.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 02:35:22
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I cannot speak to what happens or had happened with other projects of yours - since the issues went away with the effects bypassed, even on one of your loaded projects, it seems likely that one or more of your effects is spiking the latency.
In addition, the simple project with not much in it played fine with the external controller, so the mechanics of the controller seem OK - it's somehow when the controller is connected and the effects are on.
Maybe there is something else going on, but from what I have seen posted thus far, the effects seem to be involved.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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Cybertizzen
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 05:12:25
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I absolutely agree that high latency is a problem when integrating Sonar with external MIDI gear, and that the latency I've been experiencing most likely is caused by some of my effects. robert_e_bone
Here's the scoop:
Some effects are designed to be used AFTER you finish recording, and move into the mixing/mastering phases. These effects, due to how they do their thing, add MASSIVE latency to projects, and that means you can't really track/record with them present, because of the added latency.
I'm just questioning whether this applies to all projects, or only projects where you are using external MIDI gear and/or monitoring through Sonar, that's all.
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 12:04:58
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I use both midi controllers AND external midi-connected gear all the time in Sonar, and do not have latency issues caused by doing so.
My earlier posts were talking about for a given project, not for all projects.
Depending on what effects are loaded, due to the nature of those effects adding large amounts of latency, I believe that THESE were the cause - I did not mean to suggest the latency would be caused by some midi-connected device.
Midi transfers minuscule amounts of data, so your issues would not appear to me to be the fault of this external device - based on information thus far.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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rbowser
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 13:01:34
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Cybertizzen- Bob Bone has done his usual expert job of helping you out. I'm just here to reinforce the concept that plugins are going to add latency to your project, to the point of making it impossible to record from a MIDI keyboard. Latency doesn't matter during mixing, but obviously you gotta have a quick response when you're recording tracks.
Here's the advise you probably won't like - I highly recommend you use No effects while recording. That's been my practice for years, and I've never been frustrated by latency lag. It does sound more cool and possibly more inspiring to hear that reverb as you play, for instance - but I don't think it's a difficult adaptation to make, just getting used to hearing everything dry and straight-ahead when you're laying in the tracks. Later, when you start adding the plugins, it can be an exciting kick in the project's butt to hear all those tracks starting to come alive with the FX.
Randy B.
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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Cybertizzen
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 16:17:05
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Maybe I was unclear: I did not mean to suggest that external MIDI devices are the CAUSE of latency, nor did I interpret any of Bob's posts to suggest so. I probably misinterpreted the statement that was made, saying you can't really record in projects having high latency as applying to ALL projects.
In my experience, latency is not a problem if you aren't using external MIDI gear or monitoring via your DAW. Yes, it's there, but it doesn't affect what you hear, as you're monitoring directly from your audio interface and not via the DAW. This way, the only latency you actually hear is the AD/DA round-trip of your audio interface. I use hardware effects where those are desired on input.
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rbowser
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 16:34:19
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Cybertizzen
Maybe I was unclear: I did not mean to suggest that external MIDI devices are the CAUSE of latency, nor did I interpret any of Bob's posts to suggest so... ?? You weren't unclear - I didn't say you were talking about external MIDI devices. I was echoing the truism that software plugins will cause latency, so it prevents headaches if MIDI tracks are recorded before any audio effect plugins are activated in a project. That's what Bob was saying - I was just here to underscore his point. I never have effects on while I'm tracking - those are saved for the mixing phase. Randy B.
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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robert_e_bone
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 16:54:39
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Yeah - some folks skip effects altogether while recording, and some folks use effects sparingly during tracking, and some folks load up the effects without realizing the processing cost of some of them. :)
Experiment with the plugins you use in the tracking process - you can usually find a lower-latency inducing swap for one that is biting you in the butt with dropouts and such.
Bob Bone
Wisdom is a giant accumulation of "DOH!" Sonar: Platinum (x64), X3 (x64) Audio Interfaces: AudioBox 1818VSL, Steinberg UR-22 Computers: 1) i7-2600 k, 32 GB RAM, Windows 8.1 Pro x64 & 2) AMD A-10 7850 32 GB RAM Windows 10 Pro x64 Soft Synths: NI Komplete 8 Ultimate, Arturia V Collection, many others MIDI Controllers: M-Audio Axiom Pro 61, Keystation 88es Settings: 24-Bit, Sample Rate 48k, ASIO Buffer Size 128, Total Round Trip Latency 9.7 ms
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scook
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Re: Random MIDI out latency
2014/06/01 17:08:27
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Can always temporarily freeze the affected tracks or bounce down the project to a quick mix w/ effects and temporarily archive the tracks.
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