revnice1
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Re-amping question
I have a clean guitar on track 1 and I want to take the signal out of the MOTU Traveler interface and put it into the front panel of the Roland GP-100 - then record the result on track 2. Any reason I can't do that? I know there will be more latency than usual but I can always move the clip back. Thanks - rev
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 08:52:13
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Just be aware that the signal coming out of your MOTU that is going to the guitar amp is RED HOT... so turn it down all the way and gently pull it up while listening. There are impedance bridge issues that you might worry about... but the answer to your question is that it will work as long as you turn it down enough to keep from scaring yourself out of the room. best regards, mike
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scook
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 08:53:00
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As long an you have enough ports on your interface, loops like the one you describe are not a problem. Depending on your version of SONAR, the External Insert plug-in makes the process even easier.
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 08:54:21
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>signal coming out of your MOTU that is going to the guitar amp is RED HOTSurely not. I don't mean the output to the monitor speakers, just one of the line level outs. Skook: I never thought of using the External Device loop, good idea!
post edited by revnice1 - 2013/06/13 08:55:44
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 09:11:54
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 09:17:49
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 09:24:58
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OK, let us know how it goes. :-)
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scook
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 09:29:20
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From the original question, it appears that the signal is just going through an effects unit. Signal strength should not be a problem. Use the unit like you normally would.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 09:45:23
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Signal strength will not be a problem... they'll be plenty of it. :-) SONAR's external insert feature woks ok with analog gear because, well... it's not neccesary. SONAR's basic DC will sync up an analog round trip REAMP process... it is no different than any other overdub. With a digital processor, such as we are speaking of... SONAR's external insert feature might work. It is the latency in the outboard digital processor that needs to be compensated for. In a real world... the latency that a digital processor exhibits is usually conditional to the task the digital processor is working on. SONAR only measures one instance and then when the latency on the external digital processor changes you are in the weeds. It's just another half baked... not really thought through, doesn't really work as you need it to, bullet point feature that frustrates long time Cakewalk customers. The problem is caused by a condition outside SONAR but the solution is inside SONAR. It's not addressed very often, and so most folks are left to discover for themselves that they are arbitrarily out of sync and still have to resort to manual alignment. I only use external inserts for analog so I never use SONAR's external insert feature or get frustrated by it. If you are using a GP-100 digital effects unit... you might want to just do a ping for each patch and slide it manually. You'll have to figure that out. It depends on how much digital work you ask the GP-100 to do and how much latency it requires for any given patch. The level's thing will be real obvious... like almost immediately. :-) all the best, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2013/06/13 09:46:34
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 10:17:11
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Mike: Thanks - changing latency due to selecting a different patch is another thing I hadn't thought of but I plan to simply drag the clip back so it might not matter. I did get frustrated trying to use my TC Electronic M2000 in the External Insert mode some years ago and consequently I've never used the damn thing at all. It's been sitting in the rack since brand new. That was long ago and I'm ready to tear out the rest of my hair - will post back. rev
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scook
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 10:18:09
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Yeah, level was obvious from the beginning. Any long time user Cakewalk customer would have seen that and not found the need to comment about it. Probably most short timers too. Timing issues are equally obvious since they are mentioned in the original message. Revnice1 has a couple of options to try.
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 10:41:46
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I think because of the Line 6 PODxt Pro, I had to set the latency offset to the max but I think I was using it incorrectly at the time. I was accidentally using it as the Interface (by loading the driver) because I didn't understand that you don't need to do that if you already have an interface. I will straighten it all out and record the steps that worked and post it as a cheat sheet for others - if I get that lucky.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 10:52:47
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Hey Mr Scook, I can't figure out who are trying to be insulting too? Me for answering an open ended question or the O.P. for asking it? Maybe you just like scratching your head in public. Goofy. Hey rev, have fun. I enjoy Reamping myself, and I hope you do too. all the best, mike
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 12:10:52
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Mike - if you've done this before, maybe you wouldn't mind being Johnny on the Spot if I have to PM you? I'll wait until I'm on the roof with a magnum before bothering you and you can always tell me to bugger off... >I enjoy Reamping myself I hate this kind of thing! Between all the INs and OUTs and the software application, I quickly lose track of what's supposed to be going where - maybe if I get it right one time all that will change.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 12:20:03
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I'm not very reliable with PM. I just stop in to relax from the non stop trouble shooting I do for work. There is lots of great help here at the forum. I get help here from many folks, all the time, because there is so much to learn about. Draw your self a little map of the routing. It's really simple stuff but it can sure get confusing if you try to keep it all in your head. all the best, mike
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 12:21:26
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scook
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 12:47:35
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 13:15:11
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I dislike leaving people hanging... That's the primary reason I couldn't commit to the PM method, so I just drew this up for you: There are variables, so you may need to consider your set up and apply it to your setup with some small changes, but it's as easy as this. I have a more complicated yet 100% accurate illustration that I have linked to in the past but it seems to excite argument and it depresses me to see people argue about illustrations that confuse them. ;-) rev, I hope you find it useful and I hope you have fun with it. all the best, mike
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 14:12:32
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Mike: Fantastic! Thanks a lot - I'm going to keep that. It just happened to be exactly what I did but I'm getting nothing back from the External Device, no return signal. I used the same output on the back of the External device that works fine under normal circumstances but no joy. Then I started trying all the outputs on the back and all the input selections in the External Insert interface. Still nothing. And, since we're chatting - I can't change the Send level at all. Track volume doesn't change it, neither does the input on the External. But I do have Send level. The offset measurement wasn't successful either, presumably because I don't have it patched properly yet. >it depresses me to see people argue about illustrations that confuse them No kidding, after going to all that trouble. The one above didn't confuse me, except for the in and out numbers it's what I've got - I just need some Return level.
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 14:14:01
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Scook - your link is good, the older Sonar version doesn't matter to me and the truth is, it isn't that complicated. The trouble starts when you don't get the results you're supposed to be getting.
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 15:46:54
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Update: I think it's the Cuemix software application that comes with the Traveler interface that's getting in the way of this. It's always been annoying because it adds more complexity, I'll contact MOTU techies.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 16:02:32
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I am thinking it is either the MOTU's basic hardware output level controls or, as you say, the dsp. If it were Cuemix it ought to be really easy to open Cuemix and see what's up... make sure you scroll all the way to each side to see everything. If it is the hardware control, you have (at least on the older models) to push/scroll through a selection process and then you can spin the knob on the output for a particular selected output. That may be combined with the dsp on the newer models. It's going to be one of those "oh yeah" things. best regards, mike
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 16:09:17
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>push/scroll through a selection process and then you can spin the knob I remember that, you'd think there would be a default nominal level - will check. In Cuemix, there's nothing to see because nothing is happening. Nothing is muted, disabled or turned to zero. Once I get this down I'll save Presets and Profiles wherever possible.
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Cactus Music
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 16:23:51
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Just to jump in here, I'm not sure what "Sonar's External loop Feature" is, I guess I could look it up, but.. All I do is assign the track output directly to Interface Output 3/4. Patch it to what ever, and bring it back to re-record. I've never found the signal to be anything other than a standard line level. I could turn it down in Sonar using sub output faders for 3/4 but haven't had to yet. I have 3/4 hardwired right now to my Yamaha 01v Mixer to use for additional monitoring as well as I occasionally use the 01V effects. I have also run it into my Guitar amp, miked it and re recorded the track. I found no latency offset at all. And I have a Tascam interface which has so so drivers. A Motu should be way better? As far as using external efxs goes your going to be blending them with the original so it's no different than 20 years ago using an analog desk system, right?
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/13 19:54:58
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Cactus: Your method was my first thought and the next thing I'll try but the External Insert looked promising. It allows you to insert any hardware device as an effect and theoretically re-amp a clean track with measured latency compensation. I'm not getting anywhere with it because I'm not sure it really works very well and I have vendor software in the way. I've got a question in with MOTU techies but if they're baffled, I'll dump the External Insert option.
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revnice1
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Re: Re-amping question
2013/06/15 18:29:22
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Summary: A straight round trip works just fine. Send the clean guitar into the processor and record the result to a new track in Sonar. You have to pull the resulting clip back but that's not really a big deal. The only thing I think I'm noticing, is that playing the guitar into it normally doesn't seem to sound the same as sending it the prerecorded clean guitar. It could be my imagination, I'm doing some tests. The External Insert may be useful to some because you can save a preset and theoretically, Sonar can measure the latency and automatically compensate for it. In reality, as Mike mentioned above, you would need to perform the latency measurement every time you changed a patch because a different chain of effects would take a different length of time. The Line 6 PODxt Pro has INs and OUTs specifically for reamping so you don't have to worry about pulling physical plugs out and re-patching them, that's really handy. You only have to change the driver mode. My Roland GP-100 doesn't have that capability so I have to do it manually. You can adjust the sound in real time if you're using a virtual guitar like Electricity or Shreddage. You can send the output of the virtual instrument straight into the round trip, you don't need to bounce it down first. Now you can change velocity settings in the MIDI data on the fly and hear the result immediately. 1) Set the output of the virtual instrument to the input of the Guitar Processor (i.e. OUT 1 to Front Panel IN) 2) Set the output of the Guitar Processor to another input on your interface (i.e. OUT Left Mono > IN 1) 3) Set IN 1 as the source for a new track (i.e. Track 2) 4) Select the section and set it to Loop. Press Play. Now you can hear the result of the round trip playing on Track 2. Select the MIDI clip and enter new velocity values as required in the Event Inspector toolbar. You can immediately hear the response to more or less muting (for example). rev
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