Recommended sub settings

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kjs00333
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2011/05/08 15:33:21 (permalink)

Recommended sub settings

Hi all,
I just recently purchased a BX10 sub woofer for my home studio. It has a crossover knob in the back which goes from 50hz to 200. What do you all recommend for the crossover settings?
I am mixing with an M-audio profire 2626 audio interface, BX5a speakers and a BX10 sub. When I am mixing, everything sounds great, but when I bring it to a real world stereo (car, home theater, etc) it's really muddy sounding. I basicially want to set the sub's crossover to a setting that can spit out the "muddyness" in the sound so I am getting a more accurate mixing environment. I currently have the setting at 30hz and everything below should be going out the sub instead of the 2 monitors.

Any ideas?

My room is sound treated as well.
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    bitflipper
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/08 16:33:13 (permalink)
    The muddiness is probably not the result of an improper crossover setting. It's more likely caused by room resonances that just weren't being energized before you added the subwoofer.

    Make sure you're not cranking the sub too high - at first it feels very gratifying to hear all that bass, but if it's too hot your mixes will end up being bass-light. Measurement is the only way to take subjectivity out of the equation.

    As for what the crossover should be set to, that depends on your main monitors. 30Hz is almost certainly too low.

    You want to have the sub kick in just above the lowest reliable frequency your main speakers can deliver. Look up the specs in your owner's manual. Hopefully, the manufacturer has provided an actual graph so you can see where the -3db point is. If not, you can determine it by measurement. What you want to do is set the crossover frequency just a little above that frequency. Since the knob isn't calibrated (I have the same sub), it's a bit of a guess so err on the side of too high so as not to leave a hole in your frequency response.

    Far more important is where the sub is situated in the room. Moving it by a foot or two can make all the difference. Keep in mind that it's not necessary to position it exactly midway between your main speakers - it's OK to be off to one side. If it's anywhere near a corner, get it out of there. Try to position it as far from any wall as possible (difficult in a small room, I know).

    Once you've narrowed down the candidates for where to put the sub (usually dictated by the room layout and all the other stuff you have in there) start experimenting with different locations.

    The sub is big and heavy and a hassle to move around, so rather than move it, move your ears instead. Plop the sub onto your mixing chair and start crawling around on the floor with music playing. When your ears find a good spot, where the bass sounds less boomy and more defined, that's where you'll want to put the speaker.


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    #2
    StarTekh
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/08 22:35:30 (permalink)

    try 125hz and blend in the sub volume...jon
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    Counting Coup
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/08 23:11:24 (permalink)
    Like Bitflipper said, positioning is everything. You could try this ...

    Set a tall stall in your listening position. Place the sub on it at about ear hight.  Play a sweep oscillator through  the system (say 30-180 Hz) and crawl around the room on you hands and knees till you feel you are hearing the subs as best you can. Put the sub there. It's very rough but it worked for me.
    CC
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    Rbh
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/09 23:09:32 (permalink)
    Your BX-5's are pretty flat to about 50  - 55 hz.  As bit Flipper said, make sure you're not adding too much of the Sub. If you are not able to do proper measurements, at least start at a modest listening level ( normal speech level ) then incrementally bring up the sub until you barely discern that it's on. Then try listening to different volume levels over the course of a few days. This will help you acclimate to it without going too over board too fast.

        If you start at roughly 60 + hz then your 3bd down points will be a more narrow region for both the sub and the BX5's. The main idea for adding a sub for such small main monitors is to reveal that muddiness to you can tune it out of your mix. Cranking it will not help you out,  it really does need to be balanced via proper measurement.
    post edited by Rbh - 2011/05/09 23:17:16

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    #5
    kjs00333
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/10 14:25:14 (permalink)
    Sorry bitflipper.. I am a bit of a novice when it comes to to this stuff, so I am not exactly sure when you say "see where the -3db point is".  How is something like this found?

    I am a bit of a newbie when it comes to the more complicated stuff that I have not dived into fully yet.
    #6
    Beagle
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/10 16:51:57 (permalink)
    kjs00333


    Sorry bitflipper.. I am a bit of a novice when it comes to to this stuff, so I am not exactly sure when you say "see where the -3db point is".  How is something like this found?

    I am a bit of a newbie when it comes to the more complicated stuff that I have not dived into fully yet.


    you have to look at your meters in your sonar project.  it's best to have the peak numbers selected on the meter options.

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    #7
    kjs00333
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/10 18:34:46 (permalink)
    I understand, but how does that measure the sub to be a -3db? 
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    Beagle
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/10 19:27:19 (permalink)
    so sorry!  I misunderstood the question because I didn't read bit's post correctly.  I'll let him answer that because I'm not sure exactly what he means.

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    Guitarhacker
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/10 21:08:44 (permalink)
    I have a sub... Polk Audio 100w 10" ... it really adds to the quality... I have it set to "take over" at about 100hz and it's actually down pretty low.

    The muddiness I think is likely coming from the lower midrange frequencies as opposed to the lows, especially if you currently have the sub set to 30hz.... that is mighty close to the lower end of human hearing.

    Having a number of midrange instruments, piano, guitars, in the same range playing can easily muddy up a mix. also, going flat across the mids can let too many mids into the mix. I almost always pull my mids and lower mids down...(scoop the mix) and this one technique really helps keep the mix clean as opposed to muddy.

    NOTE: I mix more by ear than looking at db levels...although, looking at the db levels does tell you alot about what is going on.

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    #10
    Rbh
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/10 23:28:08 (permalink)
    I think what you have going on is:

    A. your sub is set to 30 HZ -----you will have a roll off slope from that frequency upwards that will not probably represent frequencies adequately above 35 - 40 hz.

    B. Your mains ( BX5a ) will have a slope that rolls off pretty sharply below 55 hz.

    You have a region in the bass spectrum from 35 hz  - 55 hz that is not likely being represented. You add to this the far bigger issues of room resonances - standing waves  etc and you could be all over the map. You compensate for these deficiencies by adding bass to fill out this gap by ear, and you may get it sounding good in your room. You take it somewhere else and you're listening to muddiness. Kind of make sense ?

    Set your sub roll off frequency higher - keep the volume of the sub low - just enough to give you information about what low frequencies you're not able to monitor  through the BX5's.



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    kjs00333
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/11 10:20:50 (permalink)
    I increased the frequency to 100hz and it seemed to make a difference, now I think I had the sub too high in my room because when I went to my car and listened, the bass was missing..all mid range and highs were coming through.  I guess I need to turn the sub down a little lower in volume then when I mix?
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    bitflipper
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/12 17:02:04 (permalink)
    The "-3db point" is the point on your speaker's frequency-response curve where the output is 3db below its nominal level.


    M-Audio claims a frequency response down to 56Hz for the BX5a. Frankly, that sounds a bit optimistic for 5" drivers, and they don't say


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    bitflipper
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/12 17:04:14 (permalink)
    Damn, I really hate this forum software. My response just vanished, including links and references and a really clever joke about Ghadaffi.


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    bitflipper
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/12 17:05:45 (permalink)
    Short version: get Ethan Winer's stepped-sine test project. Play it back (without subs!) while recording your speakers. Use that to determine if you're running the sub too loud or not.


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    #15
    tarsier
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/13 10:27:55 (permalink)
    M-Audio claims a frequency response down to 56Hz for the BX5a. Frankly, that sounds a bit optimistic for 5" drivers,

    I had a look at the CX5 manual and it says: "50Hz-30kHz (+/-3dB); -10dB at 50Hz"  I'm not sure how 50 Hz can be both "+/-3dB" and "-10dB" at the same time. Perhaps it wasn't meant to be a factual statement.

    So maybe the BX5a speakers are similar. They have a frequency response from "56Hz - 22kHz" (according to the manual) but it might just be at -10 dB at 56 Hz.

    If manufacturers can't be bothered to publish meaningful specs, why should we be bothered to buy them?  And yet... I have 4 pairs of BX5, and a couple of BX5a kicking around here... I think they sound ok, but their caps go bad quick. I've had to replace ones on every set. Doesn't speak well to their manufacturing/QC.
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    kjs00333
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    Re:Recommended sub settings 2011/05/13 16:46:45 (permalink)
    Thanks for the chart bitflipper.  I am taking a look and noticing the kick drum and snare have a very wide range. Where your chart starts per instrument, do you put a high/low pass filter on those frequencies that are not within that scope and roll them off?


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