Recomnd mic pre 4 use w/MOTU 896HD A/D?

Hi all,
Thanks in advance for your help with this decision.
I searched the forum for info on this but can't find much, if repeat topic, my apologies.
I want to improve the s/n performance of decent mics by getting a mic pre with and/or plus compressor for tracking low noise vocals with input compression.
(Have Rode NTK, AT 3031, SM57, 58 etc.)
I also have a very limited budget. Avalon is out of my reach.
Is the DBX 286A (affordable at $200) worth the money?
The Grace Design Model 101 seems intuitively among the lowest cost (at $545) premium quality mic pres I've seen, but has no compressor, and audio won't maintain that level of quality after going thru a cheap compressor but the Grace 101 alone is already at the top end (above it, really) of my budget.
Is the DBX 286A an improvement that's better than none?
Suggestions?
--thndrsn

CJ,
Thanks, I had seen Focusrite in my catalogs, and wondered. Good info! I always prefer to get what has been recommended by someone who is using it. Much appreciation. Highly apropos response. Right within my budget!
--thndrsn

MaestroGeek,
Thanks, that may be helpful in the long run, but as mentioned above, without the compressor, it goes over my budget. And does it output audio or digital only? A mic pre with a built-in A/D converter is only useful to me if (a) its converter is at least as good as the MOTU 896HD's converter, (b) it has a built-in compressor, and (c) its digital out is acceptable as an input to the MOTU (which rules out SPDIF), or is firewire and can go directly into my computer.

So far, CJ has made the most useful suggestion for my situation.

--thndrsn

What are you trying to record and what kind of sound are you looking for? The answers to these questions will tell us a lot...

IMHO something like the Grace 101 can be perfect for choir room mics where pristine gain is imperative, but I find them too "sterile" sounding on a lot of other sources and prefer pres with good "color" (either transformer or tube-based.) Of course, it seems to be easier in that price range to make a good, clean pre than a "colored" one that colors nicely (as opposed to mangling sound.)

Peace,

ORIGINAL: thndrsn

CJ,
Thanks, I had seen Focusrite in my catalogs, and wondered. Good info! I always prefer to get what has been recommended by someone who is using it. Much appreciation. Highly apropos response. Right within my budget!
--thndrsn

Above your budget(but I also had a small budget a month ago when i started my quest to upgrade my mic pre's! )...I ordered a Focusrite ISA428 from ADK last week. When it gets here I'll be able to let you know if an ISA series pre is something you might want to consider(there are basically 4 of them in the 428, but you can buy them in "singles" as well...the "ISA Solo"). The main reason I got it was for the same reasons you are stating...something that would be higher end and work with many sound sources...that means a non-colored pre IMO and from all accounts I have read the ISA series is an outstanding clean pre.

I have 2 896HDs.

After I bought them I waited and saved up a budget.

Then I bought

2 RND 5012s
1 API 3124+
1 Great River MP-2NV
1 Chandler TG2
1 John Hardy M-1 4channel

for 16 channels of big headroom mic pres.

In about 10 years I'll have an opinion about when and where each one works best.

I didn't see any need for EQ or Compression while tracking.

best regards,
mike

I've just ordered an ART Digital MPA. While its not in the Rolls Royce league , the reviews I've read haven't bagged it too badly and with 2 channels, impedance matching, tubes, digtial output etc it was the pick I made. I'll be able to let you know how it goes when I get it in a week or so.

Mike I agree. ART has a great marketing department.

UA Solos are nice, but save up and buy a LA 610. I rave about mine. I have said in other posts I would kill to have a 24 channel mixer of LA 610s. It is one of my favorite pieces of gear.

People complain about the price. However, there are few things that can make as much difference in recording as a good mic and a good mic pre. I would venture to say that spending 2x as much money on your convertors has less effect than spending 2x as much money on a mic or a mic pre. And, 15 years from now when all the convertors are part of a neural network, you still have an excellent mic or mic pre. It is amongst the longest lasting pieces of gear in a studio if treated properly.

Fair enough. Enjoy your new gear.

best regards,
mike


edit to add:

I think it may have been 9 years... my version did not have the digital converters.

Hi all,
Thanks in advance for your help with this decision.
I searched the forum for info on this but can't find much, if repeat topic, my apologies.
I want to improve the s/n performance of decent mics by getting a mic pre with and/or plus compressor for tracking low noise vocals with input compression.
(Have Rode NTK, AT 3031, SM57, 58 etc.)
I also have a very limited budget. Avalon is out of my reach.
Is the DBX 286A (affordable at $200) worth the money?
The Grace Design Model 101 seems intuitively among the lowest cost (at $545) premium quality mic pres I've seen, but has no compressor, and audio won't maintain that level of quality after going thru a cheap compressor but the Grace 101 alone is already at the top end (above it, really) of my budget.
Is the DBX 286A an improvement that's better than none?
Suggestions?
--thndrsn

IMO, Unless you can make a pretty significant upgrade pre-amp wise, it'll largely be a lateral move. (IOW, It won't make a significant difference)
I wouldn't bother with the DBX...
Save up for a really nice unit.

ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry
IMO, Unless you can make a pretty significant upgrade pre-amp wise, it'll largely be a lateral move. (IOW, It won't make a significant difference)
I wouldn't bother with the DBX...
Save up for a really nice unit.

+1.

Also, I'd evaluate whether you really want to compress going in. Adding anything to the signal chain before the A/D conversion will not help the noise level. A compressor will effectively boost room noise and electronic noise between notes. I would only recommend it if you have a very good hardware compressor and enough experience to make good decisions on the compressor settings in advance.

Hi Rich
I'm going analog into it...just bypassing the pre by setting the switch in back to the center position (I think it's the center that's bypass....not in front of it right now...).

Dean

Dean,
Thanks for the reply. That's what I'm doing with my P-Solo. I was just wondering if changing the switch setting (+4dbu) on the unit effectively by-passes the internal pre. But, if you say you're hearing a significant difference (obviously the GR is an awesome peice) then that dispels my doubts. The signal chain is only as good as the weakest piece of equipment.

Sorry for hi-jacking this thread. Back to our regularly scheduled program.

Rich

Hi Scott,
As usual, you get right to the essential point.

So now it's the Presonus Eureka that's at the top of my short list.

Everyone,
Thanks very much for all of your input (and keep it coming, since I haven't purchased yet)! It's all useful.

To reiterate (initiate, as the case may be) some points I think are worth repeating:

1. I want to be able to compress on the way in. It may not always be necessary, but I want to have that option when it is. That means I'm going to need a preamp to feed the compressor to feed the MOTU and the gear in front of the MOTU has to be as good as the MOTU, not necessarily better, but at least as good. Better is better, of course, but that's an expense I can not now afford.

I'd also like to be able to put more gain between the mic and SONAR than I presently can. Again, the mic pre doesn't have to be "better" than the MOTU in a sense, it just has to deliver more gain into SONAR (going thru the MOTU +4 in or through the MOTU digital in) without increasing the overall noise level.

2. The LA610 would be in my studio already if I could afford it. Thanks for the suggestion. I'll keep it in mind until I have the budget for it.

3. If the preamp/compressor combo has digital out, it has to have a converter that is at least as good as the MOTU to make sense to me.

4. The Black Lion Audio MOTU modification has long been a serious consideration of mine. I am thinking in terms of improving the s/n ratio as much as in terms of increasing the signal level going into SONAR. This option does not give me hardware compression going in, though.

5. I formerly used a 360 Systems compressor on the way in, but it crapped out, and besides, it had made far too much noise to still be of interest given my current higher standards. (I have used a DI box in reverse to take a mic into a guitar processor, but...)

6. When I plug in a pair of AT 3130's mounted in a 90-degree stereo configuration to capture a room, the amplitude out of these mics foot-for-foot source-to-mic is much lower than the other mics I use, and any further pushing the input gain on the MOTU brings up the thermal noise (from the mic? from MOTU?) as well. I do need more gain on the way in to be able to record, yes, a choir, with better results than I am currently capable of. (I got the 3130's because of their low noise rating. Granted, they don't have the sensitivity of some other choices I passed on. Thus, is a pair of better mics one possible answer?)

7. Thinking "Nothing to lose," at that price ($29 ea.), I bought a pair of ART's low(est)-end "tube" preamps online last year. Out of stock, I was sent a slightly different model. Wrong expectation. Anybody wanna buy a "signal-degrading thermal-noise and hum generator," ... cheap? "Purrs contentedly with richly colored real, authentic, 60's-style, 60-cycle warmth! A hissy-fit in a can that you can hardly tell from a real sandstorm! Complete with inoperative VU meter. [make offer] [$29 shipping and handling] [U pick up]

I'm glad to hear that they've since then learned something about real-life plate voltages. If the plate voltage is (much) below 200, it isn't a tube circuit.

I've got a vintage Altec 1567A all-tube four channel mic mixer/preamp, but it's really noisy. I replaced all the caps and improved it, but the plate supply circuit voltages are still low compared with the original specs. Next step is to replace all the resistors with metal-film types and see if I can dig up a new power transformer for it. Or build a separate power supply and feed it with nice, clean DC for plates and filiaments. It has tons of gain! But that's why it so loudly makes audible the excitement of each individual electron within its wires. The ground-loop hum on this thing is beyond huge; how the front panel is closed and where the ground returns are fastened to the chassis makes a big difference. I got tired of fiddling with it. Plan to return sometime when I recover my original enthusiasm for the idea.

Thanks all for your suggestions. Keep them coming.

Saving for the PreSonus Eureka now, unless I get a better suggestion and can find the money for it. (Asuming that the Eureka has significantly better audio quality than the Focusrite TrakMaster Pro, otherwise ...)

--thndrsn

I agree with Jim Roseberry, as usual.

Save your $$ for a pre - <$400 isn't going to get you any significant improvement over the already very good pre's in the MOTU.

If you really want a good box for not much money - go with the RNP: http://www.fmraudio.com/RNP8380.htm All of their gear is really good, especially for the money.

The 737 is a nice single channel pre with EQ/Comp. You should also look at the LA610, which IMHO is better and for about the same cost, probably a bit less. I've been using the Neve Portico 5012 for about a year - love it!! I saw one go on eBay a few weeks ago for ~$1200 - that's a steal for that box.

There are others, of course, but a lot of depends on what you are going to run through it, what genre of music you are using it for, and what sound or 'color' you desire.