Recording Clean & Effected Guitar Simultaneously.....SUGGESTIONS?

Hey everyone, it's been a while since I posted here!

I am looking for a simple solution and I've been wracking my brain and I think I have an idea but I thought I'd ask here too.

I have had a couple bands come to my studio that INSIST on using their pre-effected combo amps, and as you guessed, the results have been less than stellar.

I want to give them that option, but give myself a backup plan by getting a totally clean D/I.  

What would be the best way to go about this?

I have two Focusrite Sapphire Pro 40's as AI's so there are plenty of channels.  I have a patch bay in between the live room and I also have a separate room for guitar amps.

There are connections in between all rooms, both TRS and XLR.

I hope this is enough info!  Your advice will be appreciated.

OK, so as I suspected, a Y-CHORD would be employed.  I was right!  

I did not know if I should use a mixer or a simple Y-CHORD for the split.  
What I'm thinking of doing, is having the guitar player plug into the Y-CHORD.  (1 FEMALE END & 2 MALE ENDS.)  

One of the male ends will go into the amp room (through my wall plug) and then into the amp, which would then be mic'd and recorded.

The other male end will go into my control room (through my patch bay) and plug directly into The Focusrite.  I don't really need much gain on that signal anyway, I just need a clean, naked signal.  If I need more gain, I can always put it through another preamp before going into the Focusrite.

How does this sound?

spindlebox


OK, so as I suspected, a Y-CHORD would be employed.  I was right!  

I did not know if I should use a mixer or a simple Y-CHORD for the split.  
What I'm thinking of doing, is having the guitar player plug into the Y-CHORD.  (1 FEMALE END & 2 MALE ENDS.)  

One of the male ends will go into the amp room (through my wall plug) and then into the amp, which would then be mic'd and recorded.

The other male end will go into my control room (through my patch bay) and plug directly into The Focusrite.  I don't really need much gain on that signal anyway, I just need a clean, naked signal.  If I need more gain, I can always put it through another preamp before going into the Focusrite.

How does this sound?

Using a y chord will cut the signal in half. If you look at Mike_Mccue's diagram, the y chord isn't splitting the guitar output, but the preamp output.  Personally, I never use y chords to split a guitar signal. You can boost the lowered signal but that may also result in more noise.   

You can also use a mixer to record both clean and guitar cab signals. Plug the guitar into the mixer, use an insert/send to pass that signal to a guitar amp. Mic the amp and record that on another channel. You can also use a mixer's aux sends to send a clean signal to the guitar amps.


Of all the ways to do it, I prefer using a direct box.

Using a y chord will cut the signal in half.

Not necessarily. What you're doing is driving two loads in parallel, which lowers the load impedance on the source. How much degradation that causes depends on the output impedance of the source and the input impedances of the two loads. 


Worst-case scenario would be using a Y-cord directly off the guitar and plugging that into two low-impedance devices (e.g. transistor distortion stompboxes). Best-case scenario is using the Y-cord to split the low-impedance output of a quality preamp to drive two high-impedance devices. That's really no different than using a mixer to do the same thing.


So there's nothing inherently evil about Y-cords, it's all about impedance matching.

spindle: what Chappel offered with the direct box is one of the ways I do it too. The problem with the DI is, if there are effects on the amp, they get recorded. There is no way around that part. The other side of the coin which is good is..recording the DI clean like Chappel mentioned, you can run that signal back into their amp, one of your amps (or even into a guitar VST) and record it through like that. It would be the same as them playing in real time, only you are using a clean audio file of their performance into the amp. Therefore, you can kill all the effects and just get the sound of the amp. The other 2 ways I do it are as follows.

1. Talk to them and tell them what the deal is. Most guys you record are set in their ways due to being clueless about the recording process. Explaining things to them the right way without sounding like a Richard Cranium usually fixes the issue. From there, record them using their amp without effects. After that's done you can run their effects into a console via send in real time as the track plays back. But try talking to them and just say:

 "if we record with these effects and we find that it sounds bad later on, we'll need to re-record these tones and it will cost you more money. We need control over how much of these effects we use and if we record with them, it's not going to be possible to back these effects down. If you guys record dry (don't worry, I'll give you some effects on your amp using my plugins which will not be destructively recorded to the tracks for life) I can route your effects back into the system to where we have some control over how much we use. Recording with effects before we have the core of instruments ready is really not a smart move unless these effects you use are specifically there because "this is our sound."

(For the record, I had a guy come to me 2 years ago that had that going on. He HAD to record with all his effects because that was his sound. I hated every moment of it and never heard so much chorus, delay, verb and other panning stuff he had going on...but that was his sound and it was the sound of the band because of it. You know...sort of like an over-processed U2 type sound. But they sounded the same way live and that was their thing. So I HAD to record this guy like that because that was exactly what he wanted.)

2. Same as above only using Sonar's insert options. Set up the inserts in Sonar and run their effects into them.

Alternative: It's always a good idea to experiment on your own using your experience from the people you get in and creating a plugin rack that may work well for them. Some guys just hate hearing themselves dry. If you get a guy that likes a little chorus, verb, delay etc, it's nice to have a few things already set up so you can just add them and let him play with your effects. From there you can try to cop some of his settings and make it sound close. Just explain that you're only doing this as to not destructively damage the tracks with too much effects and anything you do can just be shut down. Most of the time they are cool with that and even cooler with it if you can come close to the sound they get with their effects. Best of luck man! :)

-Danny

spindlebox


Hey Danny,

Thanks for your post.  Yes, the whole point of this post is because I am looking for a way that I can have my cake and eat it too.  I want to be able to re-amp their guitars if need be, by recording their dry performance, AND the performance using their existing mic'd amp simultaneously.  This way, when it came to mixdown time - I would have the option to show them:

1) this is your sound
2) this is the re-effected sound using my effects
3) we can mess around with some of my other amps here

This way, they can still record hearing themselves like they always do, and I will have a completely dry track to utilize for reamping, amp sims or whatnot.   And when it comes to mixdown time, they will (hopefully) hear the difference and make the right decision.  It is ultimately up to them at the very end, and hopefully they choose wisely.  (Of course, if they're not there, I'll make it sound better and they'll most likely be extremely happy, but I'll always have "their sound" if they're sticklers.)

Your statement:  "The problem with the DI is, if there are effects on the amp, they get recorded. There is no way around that part."

It appears that the DI box that Chappel proposed splits the signal for this purpose, hopefully with no degradation as Bitflipper mentioned.  Am I not correct?  This is what I'm looking for so I can accomplish the above.  Hence the talk about Y-Chords, etc.

Thank you!

Hi spindle,
 
Not a problem, you're quite welcome. :) Yeah, you are correct. You shouldn't notice any degradation at all to be honest. I have used the DI in this manner many times as well as on my entire last album. Into the DI, one of the outs of the DI into my rig, the other end out to the console with the clean sound. Picture that clean as the sound you don't hear when you plug into an amp that is physically there any way. Once you have that, when the guys go home, you can experiment plugging into any amp you have and creating a sound for them. They don't even have to be there. :)
 
I'd say look into the Radial stuff. It works well and they give you lots of options. I use these three currently.
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/JDIDuplex/
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProD2/
 
http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/ProAV2/
 
The first one may be over-kill for you, but it's loaded with options and in this business, well, you just never know when you'll be faced with something weird...so options are always a good thing. :) Of course you don't have to go nuts on any of this stuff and just about anything will work as long as it has the ins and outs you need. I got the ones I have due to needing specific routing or functionality. But definitely consider the Radial stuff....they really do a nice job. Good luck! :)
 
-Danny

FWIW, the "Microphone and Instrument" preamp in the picture above is what some of you guys are calling a direct box...

It's an active direct box... when active direct boxes become very high quality they get called "preamps".


best regards,
mike

Here is a basic breakdown of the differences between passive and active direct boxes.

http://www.radialeng.com/di-jdi-faq.htm


Here is Video from Radial Engineering for one of their passive direct boxes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QYVk3TJfKOQ

Here is Video from Radial Engineering for one of their active direct boxes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KN5Zn4NrBz4&feature=related


After watching both videos you will probably have a much better idea of which will fit your needs. Both have advantages in some situations.