Recording Drums for the first time...

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richofthehour
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2012/05/12 14:20:37 (permalink)

Recording Drums for the first time...

Hey Guys

I'll be recording my band in the coming months as im purchasing some new gear, the Tascam us-1800 interface and I'm thinking of getting these wharfedale mics (on a budget here) for the drums. http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Wharfedale-KMD7-7-Piece-Drum-Mic-Set/GRM

I already own an SM57 which I'll use for the snare. I was thinking of getting a Rode M3 for the high hat also.

Anyway, any tips with recording or choice of gear would be greatly appreciated. I've been using sonar for a couple of years now, and a full drum kit is something I've never done before, but want to do it right.

Thanks
Rich

Computer: Compaq Presario, 4GB Ram, 2.7GHZ Processor, 64-bit, Win 7 
Software: Sonar Studio 8.5, Gearbox,  
Gear: Line 6 Toneport, M-Audio Key Rig 25, Millennium 4 Way Headphone Amp, SE Reflection Filter Pro
Mics: se1000A, Shure SM57
Guitars: Epiphone Les Paul Standard, Epiphone Tom DeLonge Signature 

My Band: www.facebook.com/manofthehourband


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    overkiller
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/13 13:45:02 (permalink)
     Search my post in hardware and techniques for ThinkPad T61p and Tascam US-1800. I use these items to record my drums with great success. I have no experience with the mics you are suggesting. I have used the CAD 7-mic package previously. I am currently using a pair of AKG 220 overheads, a Shure Beta 52 on the kick and a SM57 on the (bottom) of the snare. Excellent sounds. However I like the "open" and "ringy" drum sound. You will get that type of sound when using the mics and technique I use. If you want a fatter or "modern clicky" sound then close micing is what you'll need to do. The package of mics you selected should be ok for that. Again, I have never used those mics. The CAD mics I used (which are prolly similar) were ok. Just ok though. I prefer my current setup. The big thing to remember is overhead mic phase - that is you need to ensure that the overhead mics are in phase with eachother and/or prominent instruments - like the snare drum. Otherwise you will have problems with flat or hollow sounding snare/kick or washy cymbals. Close micing can help cover that because you will hear more of whatever you are micing using a close mic, obviously. The Tascam US-1800 works very well for me and my Thinkpad and Sonar X1. Absolutely no issues at all. The small condenser mics in your package require phantom power - enable it using the button on the Tascam. Remember however that the Tascam enables phantom power for ports 1-4 and 5-8. Thus you have at least 4 powered XLR jacks. Keep this in mind if you connect other non-phantom power mics to those jacks. I have no problems attaching an SM57 to an enabled phantom powered jack - BE CAREFUL - you can blow up your Tascam and/or mic. In my case specifically I am not having problems. This is a risk you should understand. The biggest help you can receive is an excellently tuned drumset and quality drummer. No mic or recording software can fix a poorly tuned drumset or bad drumming. I tune my drums by ear and make them sound good in the room. In my opinion, if they sound good to my ears then they will sound good on tape (err, disk?). My drums are unmuffled. That's what I want for a sound. Maybe you want a different sound. The thing is that you can experiment all you like - deleting files is so easy! The key is to get the sound you want from the drumset and drummer. Then worry about mics, placement, recording etc. I record using the Glyn Johns method. I use an overhead over the snare about 4 feet, and a side mic near the low floor tom (on the right) about a foot back and a foot higher than the top of the floor tom rim. These are my AKG 220 LDC mics. I pan them L and R and that is my overhead overall drum sound. The key is to make sure they are equal distant from the snare center. Exactly equidistant. I measure them to be 48cm exactly (in my case - you can use whatever you feel gets you the sound you want). I then use an SM57 on the bottom of the snare for more snare/tone sound. I use a Beta 52 on the kick and a SM57 on the kick. I get great low end "boom" with the 52 and "crack" with the 57. I mix them to my taste. That's it. Very simple setup. It takes 15 minutes to setup the overhead/side fill and measure (with a tape measure - it needs to be that precise) and maybe another 15 to setup the other mics. 30 minutes total and you're ready to play drums and see what it sounds like. You could even use the overhead/side fill and kick mic and be done in 15 minutes flat. Your mic package would take more time to setup - but you'd get a more close drum sound. Again the key is the overhead phasing. The overhead/side fill technique and proper measurement ensures perfect snare drum phasing. It also pretty much keeps the kick in phase too (but you have a close mic for that anyways). With a pair of overheads you will need to make a few test recordings to make sure they are in phase with the snare, toms, kick and cymbals. Then add in your close mics for your snare/toms/kick. Any phase issues will be "covered" with close micing of the toms/snare. Plugging this into the US-1800 should be no problem. As long as you are not having interface/PC problems it should be a snap. Arm whatever number of tracks you need, hit record and go play. I have my overhead mics at moderate gain levels and my others a little lower than the overheads, as far as the level knobs on the US-1800 are concerned. Make absolutely sure you do not clip a single note when recording. Watch the level indicators on Sonar - the US-1800 prolly won't even light up the clip LED. If you record just one clip in Sonar you won't be able to fix it. Just drop a little gain on the US-1800 and try again. I was fighting Sonar vs. US-1800 with clipping for about two weeks when I decided "just lower the input level on the US-1800"! Doh! Now I don't clip and I have excellent drum tracks. I can mix to my taste and normalize the sound when I'm ready to make an MP3/Wav etc out of it. Good luck!
    post edited by overkiller - 2012/05/13 13:49:31

    Sonar X2, Win 764, AMD 965BE, 8GB RAM, Asus mobo, Samsung 840 EVO, Tascam US-1800, AKG and Shure
    #2
    IK Obi
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/13 19:45:52 (permalink)
    You may want to look used for mics. Personally I'd try 1 mic in front of the kit and add from there til you get a sound you are happy with. After the main mic add a kick, snare and then try stereo over heads.
    #3
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/14 11:17:41 (permalink)
    Anyway, any tips with recording or choice of gear would be greatly appreciated. I've been using sonar for a couple of years now, and a full drum kit is something I've never done before, but want to do it right.

     
    Recording acoustic drums (well) is one of the toughest tasks for the small studio.
    If you want to do it right, don't skimp on the mics.  If you do... you'll wind up buying better units later (which is ultimately buying the gear twice - read more expensive).
     
    I'd start with a decent pair of overhead condenser mics.
    Then, I'd add a dedicated kick mic (D112, RE20, etc).
    You already have a decent snare mic (SM57)
     
    With these four mics, you can capture a pretty nice sounding stereo drum-kit recording.
    The toms won't sound huge... but with proper placement you can get a nice overall sound.
    When not using close mics on the toms, I prefer using a pair of large diaphragm condensers as overheads (larger sound from the toms).  If using close mics on the toms, I prefer small diaphragm condensers as overheads (more accurate transient response).
    If you get to the point of shopping for tom mics, note that SM57s will sound good on smaller toms... but just won't capture the fundamental of the larger toms (14", 16", 18").  A good large diaphgram condenser is great in this application (ie: C414).

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #4
    AT
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/14 12:19:20 (permalink)
    The better the drummer, the less mics you need.  The better the room, the better the mics sound.

    I've gotten a good drum sound here at home using stereo overheads (darkish Oktava's 012s) and a clean sounding crown PZM positioned equallaterly by the kick on a wood floor.  Nice -in-phase sound with most of the elements balanced.

    As Jim says, I'd forgo the individual mic set and try to get a better set of overheads to start with.  Tune the drums and work with the drummer and the mic placement.  You should be able to get a pretty decent sound and have a couple of mics you won't be putting out to the live show pasture anytime soon.  You might be able to swing a kick drum mic too, and that will have you covered for the time being.

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    #5
    IK Obi
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/14 14:39:43 (permalink)
    Such great advice. Recording something that already sounds good is the easiest gig you'll have, unfortunately everybody thinks they are good. :/ Experiment, with experience your ear will get better at micing drums.
    #6
    dlogan
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/14 15:19:30 (permalink)
    Since you said you're on a budget, you could consider using your se1000A as a single overhead, then just purchase a kick-drum mic (like a Shure Beta52) then your SM57 on the snare. You won't get the stereo affect that way, though.  "On a budget" vs. "want to do it right" unfortunately creates a balancing act of give and take...
    #7
    Cactus Music
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/14 20:43:52 (permalink)
    Somehow the words Wharfdale and Michrophone do not jive with my small brain. I know they USEd to make stereo speakers. But I get the feeling this is one of these companies that's taken a backslide in the quallity department.
    I'll go with what a few have said and say use less mikes but of better quality.
    The Kick mike is certainly a focus.
    A nice matched pair of overheads is also very important.
    I've gotten by plenty of times with just Kick, Snare,Overheads.
    In the right room it will sound natural.
    If you don't have a good set up adding 15 mikes will still sound bad.
    Start with a good acoustic sound.
    Watch for ringing, squeaking pedals.
    Pay attention to the 3/3/3 rule for the overheads and phasing issues.
    Compressor on the kick? To bad the Tascam does not have inserts. I run my kick through my mixer so I can add compression.

    Johnny V  
    Cakelab  
    Focusrite 6i61st - Tascam us1641. 
    3 Desktops and 3 Laptops W7 and W10
     http://www.cactusmusic.ca/
     
     
    #8
    quantumeffect
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/15 01:28:39 (permalink)
    Skip the crap mic’s … you shouldn’t be able to buy 7 new microphones, including sdc’s for a couple of hundred bucks (not quite sure of the conversion factor from pounds).

    As suggested above I would either go mono with what you have and add the D112 to your mic collection for the bass drum … that should be in you budget and the D112 is a great mic to have in your microphone closet … or possibly try to get your hands on a second se1000A and then add the bass drum mic when you have the cash.

    I have both the D112 and the RE20 in my collection and in my opinion they “present” (for lack of a better term) the bass drum fairly differently from each other (so it’s nice to have both of them) but the RE20 is about twice the price.

    For overheads, I really can’t comment on the Oktava’s but I have heard good things about them.  If it was me, I would hold out until I could afford 2 sm81’s.  I have been using mine for many years and I love them and I am just getting ready to retire them (or at least reassign them).

    I am now the proud owner of 2, yes count ‘em 2 brandy new M160 dual ribbon mic’s and 2 Grace M501 pre’s (sorry for gloating ... and no I have not tried them out yet so, I can't comment).

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

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    #9
    The Maillard Reaction
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/15 07:37:21 (permalink)

    Here's an article about drum tracking that I was re-reading last night:

    http://www.mercenary.com/3micdrumstuf.html




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    soundman32
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/15 16:07:10 (permalink)
    I bought this kit http://www.gear4music.com/PA-DJ-and-Lighting/Samson-7-Kit-7-piece-Drum-Mic-Set/49V about 4 months ago, and both bands I've recorded with them  (one a 60s style, one a metal style) sound great.   I took a couple of hours to get the mic positions right but other than that I've not had any problems.  I used a Mackie 1604 desk to get the mix right into my Tascam 1804.  


    Personally, I don't get the 'spend spend spend' thing.  Why spend 500% more £££ for 5% better sound (whatever that is).  Most of the time, your audience will be listening to an mp3 @ 160kbs or less.  


    As long as your mix is right and you have reasonable monitors and a good ear, you can make a great sound.




    #11
    richofthehour
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/16 06:38:18 (permalink)
    Thanks for all the advice guys I really appreciate it!

    I know what some of you mean by the wharfdale mics, im questioning mmyself about them in all honesty. As I said I'm on a budget, but still want to get the full kit mic'd up as my drummer (even though we're a pop punk band) uses his toms an awful lot and i want to get a nice tom sound going. 

    But as someone said earlier, on a budget vs doing it properly is give or take haha. I'm gonna purchase a D112 I think for the kick, I've had a bit of experience with that mic before in an old band and it seemed to do the job nicely live.

    Another question though, as far as overheads go, and i know this has a lot to do with placement, but my drummer has a lot of cymbals, and yes he uses every single one of them, how could i go about picking them all up with two overheads?

    Computer: Compaq Presario, 4GB Ram, 2.7GHZ Processor, 64-bit, Win 7 
    Software: Sonar Studio 8.5, Gearbox,  
    Gear: Line 6 Toneport, M-Audio Key Rig 25, Millennium 4 Way Headphone Amp, SE Reflection Filter Pro
    Mics: se1000A, Shure SM57
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    My Band: www.facebook.com/manofthehourband


    #12
    quantumeffect
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/16 08:04:50 (permalink)
    I’ve experimented quite extensively over the years and I like the results I get from using an AB spaced pair arrangement over the drums … I just like the spaciousness that you get when you pan the two mic’s hard left and hard right.  Some might say it is exaggerated but, that is my preference and it could be what you are looking for in terms of presenting and separating the cymbals in the final mix.

    You will be reading and hearing about phase issues and you should take them seriously, they can thin out the sound of your drums or make the cymbal decay sound phasey (I guess that is a circular definition, maybe swishy or modulating might be a good way to describe it).  Phase issues are a reality when mic’ing an instrument with multiple mic’s so it something you will need to understand.

    To my ear, the AB spaced pair arrangement is preferred because I like to be able to hear my cymbals placed separately in the stereo field in a dense mix and I deal with the phase issues.

    XY coincident pair placement is another very common technique that does away with phase issues if done correctly but to my ear, I don’t get an exaggerated separation but, you should certainly investigate it and try it (along with a modified variant, the ORTF technique)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORTF_stereo_technique

    Another important drum recording technique is mid/side or MS.  It allows you to control the stereo presentation of your drums and the (drum) mix will collapse perfectly to mono because the “side” channels cancel.  You will use a sdc mic with a cardioid pattern facing the kit (mid) and a ldc with a figure 8 pattern 90 degrees to the kit.  It is actually a great technique.

    Spend time researching the various mic arrangement techniques, try to grasp the pro’s and con’s of each and then spend a fair amount of time prior to the bands arrival experimenting with positioning.  If you have the opportunity, get together and do some rough recordings including the guitar and bass and try to get a grasp of how the drums will work in the context of your mix.  A gorgeous drum sound by itself may spell disaster when you try to get it to sit into the mix, especially when trying to make it loud (you didn’t hear me say that).

    Here is a kid in his basement showing a number of mic placement techniques … I am not promoting the video or saying that his technique is absolutely correct but he does show (I think) 4 different techniques in about 9 minutes.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1MlV_-MLWk

    Also, there is a guy on these forums that goes by “skull session”,  hunt down some of his posts about drum recording … he shares a lot of good information!

    Dave

    8.5 PE 64, i7 Studio Cat, Delta 1010, GMS and Ludwig Drums, Paiste Cymbals

    "Everyone knows rock n' roll attained perfection in 1974. It's a scientific fact." H. Simpson

    "His chops are too righteous."  Plankton during Sponge Bob's guitar solo 
    #13
    Jim Roseberry
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/16 09:59:33 (permalink)
    Another question though, as far as overheads go, and i know this has a lot to do with placement, but my drummer has a lot of cymbals, and yes he uses every single one of them, how could i go about picking them all up with two overheads?

     
    Start with a well-tuned pro-level drum kit (in a good sounding room)... played by a good player ... and you're job will be a whole lot easier.
    In this type of scenario, a small handful of quality mics is FAR better than 8 mediocre mics.
     
    For overheads, a pair of C414-XLS boomed over the top of the entire kit (in an X-Y config) works great
    The angle is not nearly as extreme as this crude diagram depicts... but you get the idea.
    This captures a great stereo image of the entire kit.  No issues with the hi-hat moving in the stereo field when open/close.  The resultant stereo (overhead) recording sounds great all alone.
    Add close kick and snare mics... and you've got a great drum sound with minimal setup.
      
         \_/
          
    (Drum kit)

    Best Regards,

    Jim Roseberry
    jim@studiocat.com
    www.studiocat.com
    #14
    IK Obi
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/16 17:30:19 (permalink)
    Having a good sounding drum kit and cymbals are a MUST to get a pro sounding recording. This will matter far more than the mics used.
    #15
    richofthehour
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    Re:Recording Drums for the first time... 2012/05/17 06:32:24 (permalink)
    Believe me my drummer's kit is in tip top shape as he looks after it properly.

    Thanks for the links and advice again, I'm gonna experiment a few ways, the video that Quantumeffect linked me to was of great help! 

    Computer: Compaq Presario, 4GB Ram, 2.7GHZ Processor, 64-bit, Win 7 
    Software: Sonar Studio 8.5, Gearbox,  
    Gear: Line 6 Toneport, M-Audio Key Rig 25, Millennium 4 Way Headphone Amp, SE Reflection Filter Pro
    Mics: se1000A, Shure SM57
    Guitars: Epiphone Les Paul Standard, Epiphone Tom DeLonge Signature 

    My Band: www.facebook.com/manofthehourband


    #16
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