Recording Levels

Newbie Question.  Recording my band.  Not sure what levels to record at.  Should I set peaks at 0db?  -3db?  -6db?  What is a good level to target?

Wow Thanks.  Last Time was recording at 0db average with peaks higher.  Had some clipping too.  I had no idea about peaks -4 -> -6db or average -12db - Thanks!!!  I check if I am at 24 bits too.  Thank you!

Here we go again!
You will find the mother of all threads on the subject here.
In general -16 or -18 dbfs (what you see in Sonar) is 0vu (your analog signal); BUT it depends on your equipment.
YOU have to test and calibrate it for your system.
"Record as close to 0dbfs as possible" was the mantra in the 16 bit days.
It was BAD advice then, and is worse now when working at 24 bits.
0vu is/was still -16dbfs at 16 bits (and 24 bit).
Most, if not all, prosumer gear gets "brittle" at high gain levels (the gain necessary to get a 0vu signal to 0dbfs).
Even LOTS of pro gear is running out of usable headroom at that point.
Read the linked thread, there's a wealth of knowledge there...

Tom

My key is, get a "good" signal that shows up on the meters. You want all your meters to be fairly busy, but no reds. The only time you should ever accept a red LED light is occasionally on a drum hit, and ONLY when using a completely analog mic-pre. On your A/D converter and in Sonar, you should never see any reds, but your loudest signal should be approximately 75-80% of the meter.

Nevermind how it's mixed going into the DAW or recorder. It's how you mix it later that's important. 

Really both. No overs on either of these. The OctaPre is likely also your A/D converter, so you don't want any Reds on that, either.

Are you guys saying to keep your master bus in Sonar at-16 or -18?  That can't be right. I shoot for -12 with just bass and kick.

Bristol_Jonesey


One important thing to remember is that you cannot affect the levels coming into Sonar from within Sonar - it's all done at your interface/pre

Correct adjustment of your pre/interface gain should show a healthy level on both sets of meters: as long as you're leaving sufficient headroom you're ok to hit the red button!

+1 ...I missed this when I first started out...this makes for some messed up mixes!

DeeringAmps


Here we go again!
You will find the mother of all threads on the subject here.
In general -16 or -18 dbfs (what you see in Sonar) is 0vu (your analog signal); BUT it depends on your equipment.
YOU have to test and calibrate it for your system.
"Record as close to 0dbfs as possible" was the mantra in the 16 bit days.
It was BAD advice then, and is worse now when working at 24 bits.
0vu is/was still -16dbfs at 16 bits (and 24 bit).
Most, if not all, prosumer gear gets "brittle" at high gain levels (the gain necessary to get a 0vu signal to 0dbfs).
Even LOTS of pro gear is running out of usable headroom at that point.
Read the linked thread, there's a wealth of knowledge there...

Tom

Holy crap!  You weren't kidding.  That is the Mother of All Threads -  185 pages!!!   And started in September of 2009.

It's going to turn into this:    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_years_war


I'll just pull up a seat and grab a beer!

Bristol_Jonesey

RMS is a different animal of course, and I try to adhere to K-14 standards 

K-14 standards??

brconflict


K standards were invented by Bob Katz. Google Katz K-System. It's just a guideline from a Mastering Engineer, but useful.

Will do.  Thanks!

Keep in mind it's not a system directly geared for recording, but rather Mastering. My advice is keep the meters busy, but no reds in the DAW or A/D converter. Only reds are occasionally OK on fully analog mic-pre's and that's only for kick or snare.  Nothing else should give you a red LED. Best of luck!

Keep in mind it's not a system directly geared for recording, but rather Mastering. My advice is keep the meters busy, but no reds in the DAW or A/D converter. Only reds are occasionally OK on fully analog mic-pre's and that's only for kick or snare. Nothing else should give you a red LED. Best of luck!

This is very incorrect. It relates definitely to recording as well as mastering. It applies to tracks and busses and your final mix buss as well. I use the K system during all stages of a production. It does require the use of VU meters though either real or virtual.  When you apply the K system during all production stages you end up with your rms levels being constant on tracks and busses. No clipping anywhere.

There is nothing random about recording levels on tracks for example. eg just keep the meters moving and watch out for red clipping lights. You can apply the K system to tracks and when it is time to mix you will find you have got extremely consistent levels on your tracks and you never have to add or subtract gain anywhere in order to make a sound be heard within a mix.

In fact it does not apply to mastering so much because your final master will end up being louder than even the highest K -12 level. The principles apply but in a mastering situation you are dealing with a higher K system level such as K-7 for example. In mastering you are aiming for that higher level but it is more so about consistency of average rms levels in your mastered album tracks.

The VU meters are required because Sonar and many other DAW's do not display rms levels very well. (Studio One can however show rms levels at full scale) On most DAW's the rms levels are way too far down on the scale for them to be useful. Sonar also shows the rms level to be 3 dB lower than it should be also. Something to keep in mind. 

The VU meter shows full scale (O dB VU) while the system is actually operating at the K level underneath. eg K-14 or K-20 etc.. The basic concept is that your whole system is operating well below 0dB FS and hence will sound fantastic as a result. There is also lots of headroom above (12, 14 or 20 dB to be exact) the normal operating level such as it was in the analog days. There is no need to be that close to 0 dB FS anywhere. It is only in mastering that we get things louder and up closer to this level. And wouldn't it be nice if we did not have to do that at all and stay at the ref level.


K system is also about calibrating the SPL level of your monitoring at all K system levels. Important.