Sixfinger
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Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
I am concerned with something I recall about a 2 gig file size limit. One thought is to be sure instead of recording the keys in stereo I should record two mono tracks to help reduce the file size. Any truth to this supposition? What happens when you hit the 2 gig limit. will it write to disc and resume with a presumable audio glitch, or fail altogether? Would love to hear your thoughts on how to ensure I have no failures.
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 14:48:28
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Oh I expect it to be 16 or 18 tracks. I'm using a laptop with 8.5 producer and an external drive, and also the fireface UFX usb connection for redundency (though I've not used it before)
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markyzno
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 14:50:35
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I recorded a 4 hour session into Sonar and hit no snags. I wasnt actually aware of a 2 gig limit? I think my session hit in the 4.5 gb mark or thereabouts (really cant be sure but it was way over 2gb)....that was a drummer with 4 close mics and 2 x overheads. 2 x guitarists amp mic'd plus DI, a bass player and vox all on mono tracks. Just make sure your hard drive is in good shape I guess....Also make sure your sound card is up to it.
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markyzno
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 14:52:17
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Do a test dead room recording to make sure you are prepped is my best advice...If that doesnt work on a dead recording then you know not to waste creative time.
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 14:55:38
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My understanding on the limit was per file, thus per track. And yes I will do the dead test thank you. I have till Friday.
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markyzno
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 14:56:55
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Let the thread know how you get on
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Anderton
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 15:10:47
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☄ Helpfulby Mystic38 2014/04/26 15:38:10
Three words: Uninterruptible Power Supply
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 15:18:14
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Mystic38
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 15:41:39
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+1 This is top of my list of "things that I don't want to spend money on because its boring and no fun, but I really SHOULD spend the money" Like any quality investment, the first time it saves your butt you will be a total zealot.. p.s. Power glitch 2 days ago, lost 4hrs of work.... nuff said. Anderton Three words: Uninterruptible Power Supply 
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markyzno
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 15:49:45
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Sonar Platinum 64 bit > Pro tools 10.3.2 >Intel i7 3770K > 16Gb Ram > Gigabyte Z77-D3H Motherboard> NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660 2 GB > ATi RADEON HD5700 > 240GB OCZ Agility 3 SSD> Win 10 home 64 bit> Delta 1010 > MOTU Audio Express > MA-15D's > NI Ultimate 9 > NI Kontrol S61 1.1 > NI MAschine Studio 2.3 / KORG MS-20 Mini - Arturia MicroBrute > KORG SQ1 - KORG Kaoss Pad KP3 > iPad and IO Dock 2 running various bits > Bunch of guitars >Sound Design on IMDB --
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stxx
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 15:52:41
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☄ Helpfulby Dream Logic Audio 2014/04/26 22:11:31
I never hit a size limitation so do not know but have recorded very long 24 track live sessions (3 to 4 hours) but this is how I do it now: - First, no matter what, Save often and to different file names as the show proceeds.
- Keep autosave on with versioning.
- I also suggest to record it into more than one project to keep the files a little manageable.
- At the gig, once you've got all your tracks laid out and you are ready to go, save that template to 2 or 3 different files (or filenames).
- This way you can quickly switch to a new project quickly and have 2 or 3 projects at say 45 minutes apiece rather than one 2 to 3 hour session. Very long sessions can cause issues if your machine can't handle them. Sonar will but your machine and interface may have problem keeping up with all the data. I have done this many times so I have learned the hard way how to handle.
- Another way to create a template immediately is say during a set break or tuning break:
- save the current project,
- highlight all the tracks,
- tracks -> wipe tracks and
- IMMEDIATELY save to a new file name giving you a new empty but identical project (settings wise) to continue the show from.
- The original project will load files up to where you stopped and the new will continue from that point in the show.
- This provides you with the full show comprised of a few shorter projects as well as not putting all you eggs in one basket.
- Later you can do whatever you want, combine into one long one again or cut up as needed.
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 17:14:05
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Good ideas there too stxx, I will be performing as well, but I'll find a spot to do it at least once!
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Cactus Music
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/26 20:09:20
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I do a similar method to stxx. I pre meditate the session and make a template with all the correct inputs assignments etc. I saved around 30 of these as CWP files each with a numerical value ( 01-Name, 02- Name etc) . On the night of the performance I opened and minimized all 30 blank projects. They will line up along the bottom of the screen if you manipulate your window size correctly. You will be able to see the numbers and name. Open 01 Name- and start recording. when the song ends try and hit save. Now open 2 and carry on. This only takes about 15 seconds if your good with a mouse. If there isn't time between each song, just do the best you can as the show progresses. As far as I could tell Sonar lets you open dozens of projects at a time. Most important for this stuff is a 7200 RPM hard drive that is in good shape, de fragged and less than 50% full. I would think a USB 3.0 external would be up to it, but they never tell you the drive speed of those little buggers. I use a laptop that is optimized for recording, it's only XP 32 bit but the hard drive is newish and 7200 RPM with lots free space. And one other trick I use is I have a USB footpedal that controls Sonar's transport. http://www.gearslutz.com/...ngineering-x-keys.html
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wruess
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/27 00:18:25
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I've been recording (approx.) 3-hour live shows, 15-16 tracks using a Win 7 laptop and Sonar (now X3) as a single project without problems. I just save whenever it's convenient, usually at break time (also nice time to pause the recording - just don't forget to restart with next set). Project size approx. 11 gb. Typical track file size per set is about 300k plus or minus depending on set length. Good ideas above about templates & multiple projects for the recording, but you may not find it necessary. (I also find it easier to work with the entire recording in a single project afterwards.) +1 about UPS; even a tiny power blip will stop the recording (in addition to any other havoc it rains down on your other equipment).
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mettelus
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/27 04:37:23
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☄ Helpfulby hockeyjx 2014/04/29 11:53:53
To the OP, SONAR X3 will shift gears automatically for you ( to wave-64 format) to accommodate higher file sizes. This is a convenient "behind the scenes" feature (but I am not sure offhand which version this was introduced with). [from the above link] When Wave-64 Files are createdWave-64 files are created behind the scenes automatically under the following usage scenarios: - When the number of samples recorded exceeds the file size limit of a 32-bit RIFF WAV file (approximately 2GB file size).
- When you export, bounce or freeze tracks or clips and the resultant wave size exceeds 2GB.
- When you destructively process audio effects on a SONAR clip whose duration exceeds 2GB.
- When you import audio and choose a wave file that exceeds 2GB in size (this could be a Wave-64 file).
- When you save a CWB file and the size of any chunk in the CWB file exceeds 2GB, the entire CWB is saved in the new Wave-64 format.
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Boydie
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/27 06:47:16
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I think you have got the 2gb file size limit from the FAT32 hard drive system format
I would therefore just make sure that the hard drives you are recording to are the NTFS system format, to alleviate any of these worries
It is easy to convert your hard drives to this format - Google is your friend here
Good luck
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/27 09:34:16
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Thanks very useful information, perhaps more pertinent in the future for me. My laptop is xp so I can't use X3 on it, hense the 8.5. I don't know if xp supports NTFS, but I do see that the Fireface UFX usb recording requires FAT32 (using this for safety/redundency) I agree Google can be a friend, but you guys are better :)
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gswitz
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/27 18:00:48
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I prepare by laying out my gear. Pre-amps... cables... mics etc. Don't forget the usb cable to connect the interface to the laptop. I make sure the latency is up at it's highest. No need to get snaps and crackles using 128 sample buffer if you aren't event listening. Turn off windows update. Don't flip around using screensets. This can cause dropouts under load. Disable the Virus Scanner in Windows if there is one. Otherwise, when you hit stop the first time, the scanner will try to scan all those gigabytes of files and it'll mess up your ability to start the recording again. Disable network card. If you're using a laptop with a battery, I can't imagine why you need a UPS. You've got a battery in the laptop. Keep it simple. Someone suggested using several different projects etc. I don't usually use different projects. Avoiding unnecessary complexity prevents you from failing to arm all the tracks or failing to record the same number of tracks or some other goof. You want to limit the things to double check. Keep double checking during the show! Mistakes I have made include - Low Cut Filter on a pre-amp by accident
- Failing to hit save after the show and the plug was pulled on my rig by someone eager to go home.
- Running down a condenser mic that wasn't getting phantom power so the input didn't show a signal... I wasn't sure at first if the mic was being used all the time... was it a quiet moment?
- Start the recording early and keep an eye on it.
Don't worry about deleting useless or test clips. Just keep everything. BTW, I wouldn't use Sonar if I were you. I'd use RME's DigiCheck software to make the recording. It's awesome!! RME DigiCheck does not require Fat32. I'm guessing the USB recording mechanism built into the UFX requires it.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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wruess
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/27 23:35:26
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gswitz If you're using a laptop with a battery, I can't imagine why you need a UPS. You've got a battery in the laptop.
Actually, this is an interesting point. I use a laptop with a good battery. When the power fails even momentarily, the hiccup is enough to stop a Sonar recording, even though the computer has a battery, (at least on my system.) Don't know why this happens; it may be more related to the USB interface losing power. Anyway, after seeing this happen a couple times, a UPS unit is on my list.
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/28 21:40:28
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DigiCheck, interesting, I had no idea it was useful for recording. Time to go take a look....
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gswitz
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/29 06:30:21
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DigiCheck is very efficient for recording from RME Interfaces. It writes all the tracks to a single file (a big one). This means there is no issue with threading. When you record 20 tracks with Sonar, it creates and writes to 20 Wave files. When you record 20 tracks with DigiCheck it records to a single file (which it gives a wave extension). It saves as it goes so if you get interrupted (power failure) you don't lose it all. After you hit stop, you hit Save to write the file to a new location. You cannot Start recording again until you clear the old recording. Don't clear the old recording before you've saved it under a new name. When saving, after you select a file name, you can choose - a multi-channel File - good for saving it off during the show. Say at set break. You don't care about splitting it yet, you just want it saved off.
- stereo files - good if you want stereo waves exported. I never use this.
- Single Channel Files - splits the multi channel file into separate Wave files (same mono waves you'd record with Sonar). You only choose one file name, but it appends numbers to the file names to keep them distinct.
DigiCheck is definitely the easiest on system resources. I can record substantially more data concurrently with DigiCheck using the same hard drive than I can with Sonar because it is more efficient to write all the data to a single file. ** I don't use DigiCheck's Global Record feature if I'm comping. Obviously, when working in a project where you are listening to synths from within Sonar, you need to be able to hear them. In some cases, I have used DigiCheck and recorded both with DigiCheck and with Sonar. I don't record Midi with DigiCheck (idk why, but I haven't found out how). I do sometimes mix in Sonar with Global Record if I'm doing some sort of performance. I can mix everything to a pair of outs and set them to Loopback and record them using DigiCheck. Then I can record a performance for a video-screen capture. I don't want my headphones on 10, so I don't record the headphones track. I make a separate track which I mix much like the headphones using the TRIM settings inside Total Mix. Remember you have compressors and EQs you can use in your UFX. Make sure you have the latest drivers and versions of Total Mix and DigiCheck. The April version of Total Mix is really cool (see video in my signature).
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/29 08:23:40
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☄ Helpfulby hockeyjx 2014/04/29 11:53:26
Boydie I think you have got the 2gb file size limit from the FAT32 hard drive system format
I would therefore just make sure that the hard drives you are recording to are the NTFS system format, to alleviate any of these worries
It is easy to convert your hard drives to this format - Google is your friend here
Good luck
Not exactly - the 2Gb limit on standard wave files applies irrespective of FAT32 or NTFS. The limitation is because the size field stored in the wave header is a signed 32 bit number that can only represent up to 2GB. As mattelus indicated, SONAR will automatically detect an overflow and convert the file to a Wave64 format wave file that doesn't suffer from this limitation. So wave file size is not something to be worried about - its handled automatically.
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/29 11:30:07
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Noel, is this true in Sonar 8.5 as well? Windows xp 32 bit.
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mettelus
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/29 12:33:27
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I just pulled this from the 8.5 Reference Guide (pg. 240): Sony Wave-64 support SONAR 6 and earlier wrote wave files based on the RIFF wave file format. The RIFF format has an inherent file size limitation of 2GB. SONAR fully supports reading and writing to the Sony Wave-64 format, which has a limit of 8,388,608 terabytes! SONAR only creates Wave-64 file when needed. The Wave-64 format allows an application to dynamically switch from classic RIFF WAVE to Wave-64 format even if the data was originally created as a RIFF wave file. SONAR detects when a file will exceed 2GB and will dynamically switch to the new Wave-64 format. I am "assuming" the Waves-64 format was introduced with SONAR 7, but Noel would know for certain (that version reference is not in the X3 guide).
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mettelus
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/29 12:33:28
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/29 13:35:27
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Sixfinger Noel, is this true in Sonar 8.5 as well? Windows xp 32 bit.
Yes. You can easily verify it for yourself. Create a dummy project with a single track which is long enough to exceed 2GB at 44.1Khz 24 bit. You can put a single clip at the end of the track to do this. Bounce the track and look at the wave data folder. You should see a wave 64 file with a .w64 extension created...
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Sixfinger
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/29 14:16:51
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:) For the first time in my life I feel well informed on this aspect. Thank you all.
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tlw
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Re: Recording a live show over two hours - Anything I should be aware of?
2014/04/30 08:17:20
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The Windows XP (as opposed to Sonar) file size limit depends on whether the drive in question is formatted to FAT32 or NTFS.
FAT32 has a maximum file size of 2Gigabytes, NTFS of 16Terabytes minus 4KB. You need the drive you are recording to to be NTFS.
To check what a drive is formatted to, right click on it in My Computer. The file system type is on the general properties tab if I remember correctly.
It's been a very long time since I used XP, but I seem to recall it is possible to convert a FAT32 drive to NTFS and retain the data on it, but how reliable this is I have no idea. Failing that the only option is to back up, reformat the drive to NTFS and restore data/reinstall XP and software as applicable.
Sonar Platinum 64bit, Windows 8.1 Pro 64bit, I7 3770K Ivybridge, 16GB Ram, Gigabyte Z77-D3H m/board, ATI 7750 graphics+ 1GB RAM, 2xIntel 520 series 220GB SSDs, 1 TB Samsung F3 + 1 TB WD HDDs, Seasonic fanless 460W psu, RME Fireface UFX, Focusrite Octopre. Assorted real synths, guitars, mandolins, diatonic accordions, percussion, fx and other stuff.
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