zblip2@gmail.com
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Recording audio without latency
Hi I have been using Sonar for a while. there is a basic concept that I have not yet understood: When I record vocals, I want to hear my voice without the anoying delay caused by the computer. Further more, I want to hear reverb on my voice as I record. For the moment, the only way that I have found is to record on a track with the monitoring volume set to zero and have a "pre-fader send" feeding the reverb bus. My dry voice is heard through the audio interface foldback and added to the reverb... After I have recorded a track, if I want to hear it back to do a punch-in, I have to drag my recorded performance onto another track which has the fader to nominal level to hear it in context with reverb, and manually cut it at the desired place... If I do multiple vocal takes I have to drag each them out on different tracks manually and mute them ....I am sure that I am not doing this the right way because it is a slow and clumzy way to work... What am I missing? I work with pro Tools at the studio and this is NEVER an issue, there is no delay in the monitoring and everything is simple... Why isn't there a direct monitoring bus in Sonar that lets you hear the sound directly from the interface when a track is armed and switches automatically to playback when the track is playing? I can't believe there isn't something like this in Sonar... I know there is feature in Cubase and Pro-Tools... When I look at Sonar videos making use of "Record Lanes" and comping within an single track I am frustrated because I can not achieve this in real life... I refuse to record audio with a 12ms delay in my headphones, I think that in 2015 we have the right to expect not to have to deal with this.. It so happens that when one records vocals, it is often late into the production process, and therefore the session is already heavy with synths and processing, it is then difficult to work at 2ms delay unless you have a $10 000 16 core Xeon. I expect some of you to suggest to me to print a mix of the backing trak and use it to record the vocals in a lighter session that will enable me to dial down the ASIO buffer, and after that import the vocals back into the main session for mixdown...I think it is a waist of time and besides the point.... I saw a Steinberg demo on Youtube that featured an audio inderface that has dsp and enables the use of reverb during recording and there was no fuss about asio delay and muting tracks and moving tracks around like I have to do in Sonar. Everything was integrated and simple. I love my Sonar but I hate recording audio with it... I wish there was a Cackewalk video that explained how one should record audio the most efficient way...How do you guys deal with recording audio? Thank you for your suggestions
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kevinwal
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 01:12:26
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Man, that sounds like a lot of work you shouldn't have to do. I'm not a pro and I don't do 'sessions' but I do record and monitor vocals all the time, just like in the videos, and often with beaucoup synths and tracks and plugins galore. My interface, a MOTU 8pre, has a utility for setting up monitoring but mostly I monitor the full mix on the Master bus and I'm not aware of any pro tricks for monitoring because I haven't needed them. Like you I like reverb on my vocal when I record. If I'm doing lots of takes I set a loop section on the time line, open up the take lanes on the vocal track and record as many as I find necessary. As you've indicated, you do have to have ASIO configured properly but in my experience you don't need 2ms latency to get a good experience. Sound travels about a foot a millisecond, so 10ms is equivalent to standing 10 feet away from a speaker. If you have lots of virtual instrument tracks, it helps to freeze them to reduce the load, but I rarely have to do that. There's no getting around needing to have the hardware for the job, because if you're demanding 2015 performance from a 2005 machine, you may be disappointed. In that vein it would help to post your hardware, OS and software specs to help us understand the kit you're running.
post edited by kevinwal - 2015/10/30 01:28:56
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Fabio Rubato
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 01:49:00
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I used to get that kind of latency when I had a gammy setup - not that I'm suggesting yours is. Currently though, my mic goes into a ADAT channel mixer/compressor and then into my RME UFX. RME has a mixing software console, which has on-board FX - (basic reverb and echo), but it adds a nice atmosphere when singing...so that's what I listen to in my phones and there's no latency at all. I record this signal directly into Sonar, which can be dry, or I can record the FX from the software if I wanted, but I find I have more control if I just record dry and listen and sing to it wet.
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mgh
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 02:07:20
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Well firstly we all get a little suspicious of a first post which basically says'DAW X can do this why can't Sonar? '... Assuming you're not a troll there are a number of different things in your post. Firstly latency has nothing to do with Sonar but is down to your audio interface. If you're heavy on the vsti then you can freeze them before recording vox Secondly you need to know about input monitoring and sound on sound recording mode. Thirdly if you want to do in the box reverb you have to either have a send or put a reverb on the track via the prochannel or the fx bin. Some interfaces have dsp and let you add verb outside of Sonar but this won't be printed. Everyone on here records vocals within sonar so clearly it can be done without all the issues you describe!
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 03:07:24
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☄ Helpfulby dcumpian 2015/11/02 08:41:29
zblip2@gmail.com I refuse to record audio with a 12ms delay in my headphones, I think that in 2015 we have the right to expect not to have to deal with this.. It so happens that when one records vocals, it is often late into the production process, and therefore the session is already heavy with synths and processing, ...
(A) Easiest and best solution: use an interface with zero latency direct mix capabilities - there are tons around at really affordable prices (I use e.g. Octa-Capture to create several Headphone mixes plus reverb on vox monitoring) (B) Bounce/freeze your synth tracks and then reduce your ASIO buffer settings to lowest possible number. With synth recording (since Ipswich) all synths can be bonced with a single playback of the song ...
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dlesaux
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 05:10:51
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mgh Well firstly we all get a little suspicious of a first post which basically says'DAW X can do this why can't Sonar? '... Assuming you're not a troll there are a number of different things in your post.
Hmmm. A single post count and highly critical of Sonar.. I wonder..?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 05:22:08
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I refuse to record audio with a 12ms delay in my headphones, I think that in 2015 we have the right to expect not to have to deal with this I hope you don't play guitar. A delay of 12ms is exactly the same as standing 4 metres away from your amp
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Hatstand
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 07:19:58
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I used to find it difficult recording without noticeable latency but a change of outboard audio hardware resolved this without anything changing in Sonar, so as others have suggested this is more likely to be an issue with the audio interface settings. Funnily enough on my current set up I get very little latency with Sonar and Ableton but with PT12 I get worse performance resulting in me having to adjust my ASIO settings every time I switch. Luckily the majority of my work is within Sonar so I can live with it without griping...errr I just did. :)
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mudgel
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 09:02:53
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The very things you say Cubase and Pro Tools were capable of in a video you saw was down to the hardware not the software.
For zero latency monitoring you have to listen to (monitor) directly from your audio interface. If you have the hardware that can do this Sonar is equally capable of zero latency monitoring.
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azslow3
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 11:50:39
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☄ Helpfulby kevinwal 2015/10/30 12:36:06
N00b solution, with 2007 computers and huge latency settings (but with "dry voice is heard through the audio interface foldback"). 1. 2 audio tracks with Mic input, "Voc.Rec." and "Voc.Live" and 2 buses, "Master" and "Reverb". 2. For "Voc.Rec." set Output to "Master" and create a Send to "Reverb". Set "Input echo" to "Off" (important!) 3. For "Voc.Live." set Output to "Reverb" and "Input echo" to "On" 4. The "Reverb" should be reverb only (no dry part). You turn record on "Voc.Rec." only, not (!) on "Voc.Live". As the result, everything you sing goes 3 different routes: 1) recorded to "Voc.Rec." but the live signal is NOT goes throw (not to Send, not to Output) 2) goes throw "Voc.Live" to reverb and then to headphones 3) goes internally in hardware dry to headphones What is already recorded on "Voc.Rec" goes to "Master" AND "Reverb" and then to headphones. With some level adjustment and proper take lanes mode, that works fine for me.
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brundlefly
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 12:15:57
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zblip2@gmail.com Why isn't there a direct monitoring bus in Sonar that lets you hear the sound directly from the interface when a track is armed and switches automatically to playback when the track is playing? I can't believe there isn't something like this in Sonar... I know there is feature in Cubase and Pro-Tools...
As soon as the signal goes inside the box it will be subject to bus (i.e. USB/Firewire/PCIe) transmission latencies, A/D/A conversion and software buffering latencies; there's no avoiding this. The only way you get around it is by direct monitoring where the anlog signal takes an analog path through the interface from input to output with no A/D/A conversion or digital processing. Cubase and Protools support ASIO Direct Monitoring, which is just a way for the software to automatically switch the interface to direct-monitoring mode if the interface also supports it. Not all interfaces do, and because ASIO Direct Monitoring is an extremely loosely/poorly defined "standard" (per Cakewalk CTO Noel Borthwick), Cakewalk have chosen not to implement support for it to date. But that won't solve your problem of wanting to monitor with FX. The only way you get that, other then by having a big, expensive pile of all-analog FX hardware, is by taking the signal into the box, and having hardware that can run plug-in heavy projects with small buffer sizes, and minimal hardware/firmware latencies. You'll also want to avoid tracking with plugins that use internal lookahead buffers that induce Plugin Delay Compensation, although SONAR allows bypassing PDC on input-monitored tracks with live input.
post edited by brundlefly - 2015/10/30 12:27:17
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LLyons
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 13:44:54
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What Fabio said, with MOTU 1248 with AVB, matrix routing and internal mixing with effects. I let the hardware which can support me best, do the heavy lifting. I route whats being played back to cue me, from Sonar back into the Mixer portion of the MOTU. Both the cue and my performance are at almost the same identical time (no circuit in this world is real time, takes time for even quirky little electrons to move), and I can effect my performance with whatever sweetening I care for. That sweetening may not be as great as the tools on my PC but its close enough for me. My 8 year old MOTU 828MKII had cuemix too, so there might be a possibility you can work this way too, maybe? Best regards, LL
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brundlefly
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 13:53:12
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Yes, an interface with onboard FX is another option. You'll still have the A/D/A conversion and whatever buffering the firmware FX require, but that'll be on the order of a 1-2ms, and not troublesome.
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konradh
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 15:06:14
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My workaround has been to set ASIO low while tracking and high while mixing. That said, I have a VS-700 interface/console in use (and a MOTU 896 interface in the rack and unused). If they allow you to hear the direct signal while recording and then the recorded signal on playback (like a tape machine), that would be great; but I don't know how to set it up. (And, if I got it set up, could we hear reverb during tracking?)
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kevinwal
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 15:59:43
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Looks like OP has taken a powder. There's good information here nonetheless.
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zblip2@gmail.com
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 16:28:50
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Thank you for all your replies and great advice. No I am not a troll... I just wanted to voice out my frustration.. Sonar, like many other DAWs, have became super sophisticated beasts, it was just a non sense to me that doing something as simple as recording without noticible delay was still an issue these days. I think it basically comes down to having a good computer, and a quality audio interface whith on board DSP effects.. If I was looking for a reasonably priced audio interface that has the adequate onboard DSP, which brand/model would you suggest?
post edited by zblip2@gmail.com - 2015/10/30 16:41:42
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 17:51:39
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Define "reasonable price". Give us a budget and the max. number of simultaneous IO required
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zblip2@gmail.com
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 19:20:44
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Bristol_Jonesey Define "reasonable price". Give us a budget and the max. number of simultaneous IO required
Lets say: 2 mic pres, two audio ins for synths, Stereo out for speakers and another for headphones, an inboard reverb and solid driver?...
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zblip2@gmail.com
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Re: Recording audio without latency
2015/10/30 19:20:44
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Bristol_Jonesey Define "reasonable price". Give us a budget and the max. number of simultaneous IO required
Lets say: 2 mic pres, two audio ins for synths, Stereo out for speakers and another for headphones, an inboard reverb and solid driver?...
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