Helpful ReplyRecording in Surround Sound

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jimkleban
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2011/08/06 08:53:21 (permalink)

Recording in Surround Sound

Is it possible to record a track in Sonar in Surround? I would like all the channels to be in one audio file.  I don't think I ever read anywhere that you can record in surround but I know that PRODUCER supports surround mixing.

The reason I want to do this is to multi-mic an instrument (hammond leslie - 2 stereo top rotors, 1 bottom rotors and 2 stereo room mics) and keep all the audio phase aligned in case I want to create audio CLIPS of some of the phrases.

Just thinking outside the box to save me some time.

Thanks,
Jim


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seriousfun
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 16:02:38 (permalink)
I believe the biggest interleave for a single track in SONAR is 2-channel.

You can record five (or more) tracks at once, and then link them in various ways for editing, or bounce to a 6-channel wav.

Sony Sound Forge and Vegas can record and edit multichannel files. 

Doug Osborne
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jimkleban
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 16:07:25 (permalink)
Serious....

Yeah, I have Soundforge and just might try and record in surround (multi channel).  Probably better to do it there anyway since that is where I am going to do the editing.

I was just wondering if there was a way to do this in Sonar directly.

Jim

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Muziekschuur at home
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 20:55:25 (permalink)
Why not? 6 inputs and press record? Pan them in surround?

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jimkleban
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 21:03:03 (permalink)
Can record 6 tracks but am a sampling an instrument with many mics and wanted to get them into the same file for phase issues (edit them at the same time).  Only wanted to do this in SONAR so I could play along and then pick out the sampled notes in context to the song.

No biggie though, I can do this in Soundforge the old fashion way (boring) one note at a time, one velocity at a time.

Jim


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Muziekschuur at home
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 21:06:37 (permalink)
a groupmap is maybe a workaround?

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jimkleban
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 21:07:43 (permalink)
Muziek...

I was going to export the file to Soundforge anyway (as one file) to edit the samples, so I was just hoping that I could record the samples while in Sonar.

Jim


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John
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 21:08:23 (permalink)
With X1 its the buss that matters for surround sound. Record your tracks as mono and output them to a surround buss.

Best
John
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jimkleban
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 22:57:00 (permalink)
John,

Thanks for the info but I am not 'xplainin' what I am trying to do correctly. I am just going to use Soundforge, SONAR can't record surround files on the fly for exporting, no biggie.

Jim

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John
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/06 23:52:46 (permalink)
jkleban


John,

Thanks for the info but I am not 'xplainin' what I am trying to do correctly. I am just going to use Soundforge, SONAR can't record surround files on the fly for exporting, no biggie.

Jim


There is nothing about SS that precludes X1 from recording it. Its just a matter of multiple tracks set to record and recording with it outputting to a SS buss.

You do need surround sound hardware to play it back.

Best
John
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Bub
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 00:32:23 (permalink)
I don't think Sonar has the ability to export a Dolby Digital 5.1 audio file which is what I think the OP is looking for.

Sound Forge has the AC-3 codec built in, but I can't figure out if that's Dolby Digital 5.1 compatible or not.

UPDATE: Cool ... it seems Batman (1992) was the first movie to use Dolby Digital. HEHE

"What is AC3 audio? Dolby Digital, or AC3 audio, is the common version containing up to six discrete channels of sound. The most elaborate mode in common usage involves five channels for normal-range speakers (20 Hz ?20,000 Hz) (right front, center, left front, right rear and left rear) and one channel (20 Hz ?120 Hz allotted audio) for the subwoofer driven low-frequency effects. Mono and stereo modes are also supported. .AC3 audio supports audio sample-rates up to 48 kHz. Batman Returns was the first film to use Dolby Digital technology when it premiered in theaters in Summer 1992. The Laserdisc version of Clear and Present Danger featured the first Home theater Dolby Digital mix in 1995."
post edited by Bub - 2011/08/07 00:38:12

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jimkleban
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 12:50:03 (permalink)
Yes Bub, that was what I was trying to get at. I only wanted to record all the mics in the same track to insure phase alignment while I was grooving.  I can do this in Soundforge instead.

Thanks,
Jim


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Bub
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 13:30:25 (permalink)
Hi Jim,

I never was able to get the AC-3 file I created in Sound Forge to play on my Dolby Digital 5.1 system. I think there are different versions of it encoded in to different receivers and mine is almost 10 years old now.

The AC-3 codec that comes with Sound Forge is actually a freeware codec you can update. AC3Filter

It's been a long time, but IIRC, I ended up encoding it to DTS to be able to play it back on my 5.1 system. DTS seemed to be more backward compatible. Most receivers support both Dolby Digital and DTS. DTS actually sounds better for music IMO.

Good luck. It's a lot of fun messing with the surround.

"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Paul Russell
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 14:08:11 (permalink)
jkleban


Yes Bub, that was what I was trying to get at. I only wanted to record all the mics in the same track to insure phase alignment while I was grooving.  I can do this in Soundforge instead.

Thanks,
Jim

Why would 5 or more separate Sonar tracks recorded simultaneously be out of phase? 
As plenty of posters above have stated, the only limit to the number of tracks you can simultaneously record in Sonar is your hardware. Once the tracks are in, you can group them together to maintain phase integrity while editing, and buss them out to one surround capable mix buss (or more) if you have the hardware to support it.  

Paul Russell 
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jimkleban
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 14:36:36 (permalink)
Paul,

They wouldn't necessarily be out of phase but they would be in separate files.  When I go and edit a SURROUND file (at least this is my work around) I can edit all five or six channels at the same time and my EDITS would keep the files in phase.

So, it's not SONAR that would be out of phase it would be my edits that could throw it out of phase... if I decide to cut silence out of the samples, I would be cutting the exact samples in phase on all 5 or 6 tracks at the same time.

Remember, I want to do this to create one hit instrument samples, recorded with multiple mics.  Think drum kit... close mic, overhead mics, room mics.  If I don't edit exactly each hit, they samples would be out of phase to each other (it is ok that the room and oh mics are out of phase with the close mic as would happen naturally but I need to maintain this relationship through all the edits).

Again, I only wanted to do this in SONAR so I could perform the instrument samples in real time against a groove.

Jim

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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 22:57:17 (permalink)
Group editing is your friend here. 
You'll only change phase if you start moving things around in time, and that applies to any app. Slip editing in Sonar won't change that any more than any other program would. 

Looking at the problem another way, are you sure you need 5.1 versions of drum samples to play? Why not use Superior Drummer or Addictive Drums for audio source and then pan the ambience out through channels mapped to rear speakers? You'll definitely need to carve out the low frequencies from the kick and toms to send out to the sub. You might also want to take a look at Voxengo's new surround sound Bass Management plugin.
 


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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 23:32:05 (permalink)


This is a surround buss header.  Notice the meter. That meter is showing the relative level of the tracks going to it and placed in the surround configuration.

Also there is a panner just for surround sound.


This is the surround sound panner in Sonar X1.

Again to do surround sound you will still need a full hardware surround sound setup.  This means you will have the encoding and decoding in the hardware.

Below is from the X1 user guide

Exporting surround mixes
You can export your surround mixes as multi-channel PCM wave files, or as Windows Media Pro
files.
To export a surround multi-channel file
1. Use the File > Export > Audio command to open the Export Audio dialog.
2. Type a name for your file.
3. In the Files of Type field, choose one of the following:
• If you want to create a multi-channel wave file, choose RIFF Wave.
• If you want to create a multi-channel Windows Media file, choose Windows Media Advanced
Streaming Format.
4. In the Source Category field, choose Buses, Main Outputs, or Entire Mix.
5. Choose the bus or buses in the Source Buses/Tracks field that you want to export your mix
from.
6. Choose Multichannel in the Channel Format field.
7. Choose any other options you want such as Sample Rate and Bit Depth.
8. If you want to save the settings you created in the Export Audio dialog, type a name for them in
the Preset window and then click the floppy disk icon that’s next to the window.
9. Click Export.
SONAR exports your project in the file format you selected.
 

Best
John
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seriousfun
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 23:32:45 (permalink)
Definitely don't steer anything to the LFE channel in a music 5.1 mix. There's more than enough headroom in five main channels to handle the bass from any musical instrument (as there is with one or two channels), LFE content gets thrown away with many downmix and decoding schemes, and duplicating bass information in the LFE and any main channel is asking for  trouble because of room acoustics.

(As I said in my first post) I believe you will get the results you want by group editing the tracks together in SONAR (they don't drift unless you want them to) but Sound Forge might be a better tool.

Doug Osborne
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John
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 23:38:44 (permalink)
As to mixing surround sound I don't think there a lot of difference between it and a stereo mix except the placement of the tracks. One would go about it much the same way. X1 should be great for this sort of mixing.

Again if you have the right hardware it should be  easy and very straight forward.

How to set up a surround sound studio.
post edited by John - 2011/08/07 23:46:58

Best
John
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BenMMusTech
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/07 23:58:45 (permalink)
If you are going to record surround sound you should look at a multi microphone technique.  For instance for the rotary speaker try a decca tree, put the recordings after the have been decoded across the front speakers, that is L,RC, maybe a small amount into the LFE.  Then for the room microphones try and create a fake quad mix by placing the two room microphones across the front LRC and back LS and RS.

Alternatively if you have 4 room microphones place them in the correct spot all around the room and then pan these to the respective speakers to give a surround feel.

Of course if you have the bucks you can buy surround sound microphones now, that specialize in recording 5.1 here is one http://holophone.com/products/h2-pro.

Just remember recording in surround sound requires a multi microphone technique (most of the time) you have the Decca Tree, stereo a-b the blumenfield and a couple of others I can't remember off the top of my head oh yea stereo x/y.

Try these microphone technique until you get the one you want.

Now correct me if I am wrong but can't you buy an encoder for Sonar???

Benjamin Phillips-Bachelor of Creative Technology (Sound and Audio Production), (Hons) Sonic Arts, MMusTech (Master of Music Technology), M.Phil (Fine Art)
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Bub
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/08 02:39:37 (permalink)
John
 
Exporting surround mixes
You can export your surround mixes as multi-channel PCM wave files, or as Windows Media Pro
files.
To export a surround multi-channel file
1. Use the File > Export > Audio command to open the Export Audio dialog.
2. Type a name for your file.
3. In the Files of Type field, choose one of the following:
• If you want to create a multi-channel wave file, choose RIFF Wave.
• If you want to create a multi-channel Windows Media file, choose Windows Media Advanced Streaming Format.
I created a quick surround project and tried to export it and I saw no option to export to a RIFF Wave, and when I tried to export as a Windows Media Advanced Streaming Format, it said there was no Codec installed.

I did notice two .wav options though. "Wave" and "WAV (Microsoft)".

The only place I could find an option that actually said "RIFF Wave" was when I tried to export the project to an OMF file. Then I had the option to select "RIFF Wave" or "AIFC".

When I export my projects I always select "WAV (Microsoft). What's the difference between "Wave" and "WAV (Microsoft)" ... anyone know? Is "Wave" actually a RIFF Wave and if so, how do you convert it to Dolby Digital or DTS?

BTW ... just tried to open an OMF 1 and OMF 2 file in Sound Forge 9.0 and it does not support it.



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Muziekschuur at home
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Re:Recording in Surround Sound 2011/08/08 03:54:06 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jacksop 2017/10/03 15:33:35
There is inclomplete information in this thread wich may be confusing.

The workflow in 2000.
Record 6 mono channels (or more for creative 5.1. mixing)

Mix over 5 channels. The 6th channel is a LFE channel. (LOW FREQUENCY EFFECT channel). Wich means it's meant for effekt. The 5 channels are full range. But in home 5.1. systems there may be some filtering going on (to get the low content to sub).

After export of the 6 channels the audio was sent to an authoring company. They did the dolby digital export and the DTS export. Where DD was less dynamic and DTS usually more dynamic to give highend hifi owners some extra dynamics. 

Dolby surround is an old standard meant to enhance stereo mixed material.

Around 2000 there was no other format then DVD and SACD. Where SACD was a seperate production method.

Right now we have a multitude of surround production methods. 
The nicest method is surround MP3

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MP3_Surround

I own DISCWELDER. Wich can create a 5.1. disk for playback in DVD-A players. (Any bluray player can playback this content).

Right now authoring to surround would be to create a BLU RAY DISK with severall encoders. It is a speciality and is not cheap. You need severall programs to pull it off professionally.

So, what would you need?
DTS HD MASTER AUDIO suite (for DTS EX)
http://www.minnetonkaaudio.com/ has some nice tools
Apple Final Cut (Pro X) can do blue ray disk authoring. But you need an additional DTS codec.
Adobe products are usually used for creating flash menu's wich are not possible in the authoring suites.
Adobe Premiere CS5.5 can do surround sound and do Bluray disk authoring
Sonic Solutions Scenarist has been THE BLU RAY and DVD authoringsuites. It is not a click some menu's program. The interface is much more open so the user should know a little programming. Some Adobe photoshop doesn't hurt either. The mixing engineer usually supplies a stereo mix, a dolby digital mix and a DTS mix. And since BLU RAY is a rather big medium DTS EX and DD EX might be there too.
But backward compatability is important. So music usually is 48khz16bit or 24bit. But not all old DVD players can handle 24bit. So higher bitrate audio is usually an option within an extended stream.

There has been an authoringsuite for dolby digital and DTS for cd and DVD from minnetonka wich came bundled with Sonar 4 or something like that.

In the end, if you want to create a commercial BLU RAY or DVD it'l take multiple products to create an endresult. And not only Sonar. Sonar can produce 6 mono streams wich can be used to encode the final result. 

There is a lot more to say about this subject. But let's just say the industry doesn't want the little man to create BLURAY content. 

post edited by Muziekschuur at home - 2011/08/08 04:01:17

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