garygml
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Recording live drums
Hi guys my son wants to record his band in my garage using my sonar platinum.....(the only difficult thing Being the Drums) but the problem i only have a Focusrite Forte 2 in 4 out usb & Focusrite Scarlett Studio 2 in 2 out would it be possible to use both of these at the same time???...my other option is i have an Allen & Heath ZED 10 USB mixer.any help would be most gratefull Cheers Gary
post edited by garygml - 2015/07/06 14:24:16
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TheMaartian
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 14:54:33
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Unfortunately, Windows does not support multiple simultaneous USB audio interfaces. And I'm not sure about the A&H USB port (no ASIO driver that I could find; not even sure if it's Class Compliant). You may need to feed the A&H's S1 Line Outs to the Focusrite Scarlett Line Ins to get it into SONAR. If you don't think it's possible to get a high quality recording of a group from even a single mic, check out the Benny Goodman "Live at Carnegie Hall" double CD. The band that night (16 Jan 1938) included Count Basie, Teddy Wilson, Lionel Hampton, Bobby Hackett, Johnny Hodges, Harry Carney, Cootie Williams, Freddie Green, Walter Page, Lester Young, Buck Clayton, Harry James, Gene Kruppa, Vernon Brown, and vocals by Martha Tilton. What a lineup! All recorded through a single overhead mic and piped directly to CBS Radio. It can be done! Good luck!
post edited by TheMaartian - 2015/07/06 15:10:10
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 14:57:59
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Even if you had a multi input interface, how many suitable mics do you have?
You could consider hiring an interface just for this recording, but again, it all comes down to what's in your mic locker
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garygml
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:02:34
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Iv got access to 4 decent mics... How would I record to separate tracks(sorry for asking silly questions iv never recorded drums before)
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TheMaartian
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:07:41
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Unless you take Jonesey's advice and rent a device just for this recording session, all you are going to get with your existing kit is one stereo channel. If you put 2 overhead mics on the drums, you've got 2 inputs remaining on the A&H. You may just want to use two mics for the entire group (in that case, just use the Scarlett). In SONAR, you'll get two tracks, Left and Right.
post edited by TheMaartian - 2015/07/06 15:15:42
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:09:05
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4 inputs would be good.
You could stick one mic on the kick, one on the snare and 2 as overheads.
What mics are they?
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garygml
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:16:18
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Iv 2 rode nt 1s a focusrite & an akg ..so would route it into the a&h then into the focusrite forte?
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bandso
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:27:03
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Record the drums as overheads in stereo with your 2 mics. Then go in and supplement these 2 tracks with drum samples as the "close" mics. You could then convert the newly placed drum samples into midi notes and use a drum program to change kit sounds (as long as they are relatively close to the originally recorded drum sounds.) It's easier to do than you would think and you only need 2 inputs on your interface. PM me if you need some instructions on how to do this and I'll point you to a excellent groove3.com video that handles just this exact topic. (Cakewalk partnered with Groove3.com in the past so people please don't cry that I'm spamming). I've just been down this same road and this was the answer for me (until I got a multi-input interface.)
post edited by bandso - 2015/07/06 15:37:24
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garygml
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:32:32
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Cheers bandso I think that Just went straight over my head lol... Can u break it down a bit
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:33:51
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Don't forget you also have access to the new Drum Replacer in Platinum.
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garygml
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:42:30
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<p>Cheers bandso I think that Just went straight over my head lol... Can u break it down a bit</p>
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garygml
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:44:11
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Cheers jonesy I never thought of that will that isolate each drum & allow me to route to separate tracks?
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 15:48:58
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I'm not entirely sure. I personally haven't used it and am unlikely to as I have no access (or space) to record live drums.
Others much more knowledgeable than myself will be able to help.
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TheMaartian
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 16:19:02
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garygml
Cheers jonesy I never thought of that will that isolate each drum & allow me to route to separate tracks?
The number of live tracks you can record in SONAR is equal to or less than the number of physical inputs you have on your audio interface. Your Forte has 2 inputs. The Zed 10 has 4, but the only way to get all four into 4 separate tracks in SONAR is via its USB interface, ASSUMING there is an ASIO driver for it. If not, you'll need to use your Forte, with the Zed 10 S1a L & R Line Outs connected to the Forte TRS Line Ins. So, if you're looking to make a multitrack recording, you'll need a different audio interface. Here's a Sound On Sound article on mic'ing drums: http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jul99/articles/recordingdrums.htm A Shure PDF file on placement: http://cdn.shure.com/publ..._for_drums_english.pdf
post edited by TheMaartian - 2015/07/06 16:34:20
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gbowling
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 17:52:23
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For the two mics on your drums... Be sure to place them equidistant from the snare and about in line with your bass drum. That will prevent phase problems with your snare.
Since you've only got two channels and you're going to have other instruments/vocals, it might be tricky to replace drums with drum replacer. DR won't route anything, it's just something you can try on your recording after you're done. If you can isolate the bass/snare using the filters in DR, you might be able to replace those with DR sounds.
Work on getting levels right between the drum mics and the other mics. You might even find that just two mics for the entire band sounds best. Hopefully you have a few takes to test some options. If you use two mics as stereo, also be sure to get them equidistant from your snare.
Not sure if the A&H can be used as an interface into sonar, but worth looking in to.
Good luck!
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tlw
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 18:02:10
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If the differing interfaces all have WDM drivers wouldn't it be possible to use those and aggregate the interfaces rather than using ASIO (which, with few exceptions, restricts you to one interface)? You wouldn't be able to monitor using Sonar's inout echo, but I guess you might not need to anyway.
If the band can get a reasonable balance of instruments, vocals etc why not just record them the old-fashioned way using a stereo pair of mics or even a single mic? It worked pretty well for the first 50ish years of the recording industry.
Another option might be to use the interfaces as stand-alone mic pres with their mic inputs routed directly to their outputs which then feed the ZED10's stereo channels. It depends on the internal routing in the interfaces, but if they can handle direct monitoring of their inputs straight to output without going through a DAW that might work as a way to grab a few more mic channels.
No possibility of later overdubs due to mic bleed of course, but if overdubs or punch-ins to fix bits are likely to be needed you'd do better to multi-track from the start with each instrument being individually recorded one at a time. Which means a loss of interplay between band members and longer recording sessions as well as more work....
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bapu
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 18:12:26
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I was wrong.
post edited by bapu - 2015/07/06 18:20:11
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NeoSoul
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 20:00:19
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I've had quite a bit of experience trying to capture "multi-track" live recordings with limited inputs. Two mics in the drums is really all you need to get decent results. One Large Diaphram over the snare kind of area, and one on the kick. (you can use the Nomad mono -> stereo plugin to make the mono overhead feel like it is stereo. Short video that talks about this: https://youtu.be/DHQKtK-xTr8
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ShellstaX
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 21:18:29
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☄ Helpfulby ampfixer 2015/07/07 17:51:08
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gswitz
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/06 21:25:27
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Turn on that track grouping feature in preferences. It's handy in case you decide to move some transients.
StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen. I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Zargg
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/07 05:20:55
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Hi. There is also a technique, called Recorderman technique, which allows you to record drums with two mics. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X_kMItRI2s (this was the first that came up, Googling it) This will give you a stereo recording, and you will have two mics to record the rest of the band. Best of luck.
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NeoSoul
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/07 17:37:44
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Zargg71
Hi. There is also a technique, called Recorderman technique, which allows you to record drums with two mics.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X_kMItRI2s (this was the first that came up, Googling it)
This will give you a stereo recording, and you will have two mics to record the rest of the band.
Best of luck.
I've used this technique before and I personally tend to prefer the method I mentioned primarily because it is difficult to get the kick like most people want to have a kick if you use the Recorderman Technique. The Recorderman Technique is basically the Glynn John's technique minus the Kick mic and the snare mic. I don't find the snare mic is necessary in the GJ technique, but the Kick really does help in most rooms. More so than I personally think the side fill mic brings to the table. Especially if you use a Mono to Stereo plugin like the Nomad Factory (or even better...the JST + Boz Labs Sidewinder) on the single overhead.
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ampfixer
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/07 17:53:08
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I've done a couple projects like the OP mentions. It was easiest to rent extra mic's and I/O. Use the mixer for drums and send it as a stereo mix to sonar while putting the rest on their own tracks. The bleed will be unstoppable in the situation described so discreet inputs might not be that important. I typically set up for a live, off the floor, recording and then season the whole mix.
You won't get anything really professional sounding but you can get something that's quite reasonable and representative of the band.
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MBGantt
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/07 19:18:25
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In my humble experience the best thing to do if you do not want to rent extra mics and an interface is to use two rooms mics in stereo. Move them around and see what you get. I have often found that to be a decent sound and set up. That also depends on the room you are recording in and if it is a good room. I have a large space (huge) that I can use which allows me to set the mics at any distance I need to and find the sweet spot. I actually almost prefer it this way instead of trying to mix all those mics. A garage may not be good for this though. Experiment and find something that works. You never know what you will discover. Try a room and a close. I guess the big obstacle to that would be if they are all playing at once and then the farther away you get the drum mics the more bleed you will get.
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Zargg
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/07 19:57:17
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All good advice here  Walk around the room, and see where you think it sounds best, and start placing mics from there. Best of luck.
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garygml
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/08 14:28:27
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Another quick question guys.. If I wanted to record all the audio for this project onto an external hard drive how would I do this? (I mean every take as I record it)
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Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/08 14:35:16
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You can direct where you want your audio stored by going to Preferences > File> Folder Locations > Project Files
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ShellstaX
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/08 20:15:22
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garygml
Another quick question guys.. If I wanted to record all the audio for this project onto an external hard drive how would I do this? (I mean every take as I record it)
I'm not hugely experienced in live recording so others may have better advice ... but ... Use Comping mode and AutoSaves. Comping mode will maintain take lanes. Be sure to do a final and separate save before editing (the real 'comping' phase). Autosave is time or change based. (Else manual saves after each take). There's also versioning as per: Preferences > File > Advanced Mix Recall will provide you some recovery points at the mix stage. Videos for Comping and MixRecall at: https://www.cakewalk.com/...University/Get-Started
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kellerpj
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/08 21:24:21
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I've had to, on occasion, use one mic to produce a recording. It takes a bit longer, but it can yield surprisingly good results. Here's a post that summarizes the technique: http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3055884 Hope this helps, Paul
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Cactus Music
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Re: Recording live drums
2015/07/09 10:37:53
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☄ Helpfulby TheMaartian 2015/07/09 11:44:03
If you only have 2 channels then you are stuck with making a stereo recording. I can't see that these kids will want to go through the pain of layering each instrument track by track with overdubs. It is much harder for a young band to work in the overdubbing and building a song track by track environment. The song will turn out sounding way different than they are used to hearing it. A band plays as a unit and it is a shame to not record them live and multitracked. Pick up a Tascam us1800 for less $200 or for $300 the new us16x8. But your also going to need a lot more mikes. So with what you have best you can do is a LIVE stereo recording of the whole band which will take the right room and mike placement. ( note: A Tascam or Zoom handy recorder will work fine for this). The Zed 10 and your 4 mikes could be utilized to make a live "board mix" that's what I would do. Ch 1 - Left Drum mike pan Left Ch 2 Right Drum mike pan Right Ch 3 Vocals Ch 4 Guitar cab miked Ch 5 Bass DI Ch 6 Keyboards? 2nd Guitar DI? It's USB output is only stereo , it is not multi track. And I beleieve it has sloppy drivers so best to just use your Focusrite and the analog outs to have better quality drivers. This would work best if you coulld remove yourself to a sound isolated location ( The back lawn? ) with some longer cables etc. Because your going to need to MIX the band live. If in the same room use headphones and it will take a few stop starts to get the balance. Play, listen, play, listen etc. Once your get a good balance all they need to do is play all their songs.
post edited by Cactus Music - 2015/07/09 11:03:05
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