Recording real drum kit

I may need to learn how to record real drums instead of using Toontrack like I've been using for years.
 
the drums will be set up on a stage in a small rectangular shaped church sanctuary (carpeted floor), with a pony wall immediately beside them and the exterior wall of the church about 6 feet from that. behind them is an interior wall that goes to the ceiling, so they're kind of nestled in a corner.  there is no drum cage, they are otherwise open.  for recording, I could pull them out to the center of the stage if it makes more sense to do that.
 
I don't have a lot of mics to use.  I can probably get a dynamic kick mic.  I have 2 small pencil mics (CAD C-9) and I have 3 large diaphram mics including a Shure KSM44, an MXL-V67M and an AT-2020.
 
I have a MOTU Ultralite MK3, so I have plenty of channels to use, but not a lot of mics.
 
I'm currently thinking I'd hang the KSM44 and the AT-2020 over the drummers' shoulders, getting a kick mic and putting one of the pencil mic's at the snare.  
 
does that sound reasonable?  is there anything else I should be considering?

As always, it depends.  The rest of the band, drummer and spot.  I would think I'd try the corner - that should provide some shielding against the band bleed (tho maybe not).
 
Dynamic on the kick and probably the AT on the snare - both close.  Then I'd probably try to catch the rest of the kit, esp. the toms, with the pencil mic(s).  I would hope you'd catch enough brass with bleed - I usually do.  But of course keeping out band bleed is a bigger priority.  Be prepared to make the band work long (tho not hard) to get your mics up. 

AT
As always, it depends.  The rest of the band, drummer and spot.  I would think I'd try the corner - that should provide some shielding against the band bleed (tho maybe not).
 
Dynamic on the kick and probably the AT on the snare - both close.  Then I'd probably try to catch the rest of the kit, esp. the toms, with the pencil mic(s).  I would hope you'd catch enough brass with bleed - I usually do.  But of course keeping out band bleed is a bigger priority.  Be prepared to make the band work long (tho not hard) to get your mics up. 

Ah!  another thing I left out!  This would be recording the drums only with the drummer using a scratch recording of the band playing of the song in his ears, there will be no band recorded at the same time - at least at this time for these recordings.

gswitz
Sounds like a plan. If you have lots of distant Mics, you might use a tool like Melda auto align to handle phase.

Use a Mic cable to measure distance from center of snare to each pencil SDC. Keep the distance equal for both. This will help with phase.

great tips, Geoff, thanks!

Rob[atSound-Rehab]
i'm curious how the church ambience will work out for you. please take the time and let us know afterwards.
 
as regards micing a drum kit with only a few mics - this may be very helpful (yes it does work nicely even if the mic placement seems odd): http://therecordingrevolution.com/the-glyn-johns-drum-recording-method/
 
make sure you a have really good pair of overheads. if in doubt, borrow some and try alternatives (definitely worth the effort). work with the mic placement - it pays back. and if done properly, it can save you all the phase align work (apart from engaging some phase switch)

Interesting approach, he has, Rob, thanks for sharing!  

fwiw, I rarely use XY or ORTF when mic'ing drumz. I almost always space them out, and yes there can be phase issues related to spacing them out. But, I mic each drum in the kit closely and then use MAutoAlign to handle phase problems for the drumz. Spacing them out is a big help for me. It makes it easier for me to play with the stereo spread later. I see it as near mic'ing a set of cymbals... sure they get all the drumz too but overheads get so much sizzle ... also, I close mic every drum, so I have a lot of control there.
 
I think if you aren't close mic'ing any of the drumz, lowering the mics so that they are kinda equi-distant from the drumz and the cymbals might help get a fuller drum sound.
 
If you can at least mic the snare, that will help, but the idea put out by Rob is really a great one. You've got a mic on the snare... not a low mic coming in from the side will really help you capture the toms!

patm300e
If you have time (and patience!) try each method here in your space.
http://recordinghacks.com/2010/04/03/drum-overhead-microphone-technique-comparison/
 
Then pick the one that sounds the best to you!
Bottom line is there is no one correct way to record drums.  Success has been found with and without "Room" mikes that set back from the drums.

Interesting reading.  I use the spaced pair method.  One should also notice that the closer the mics are to the toms, the more tone you seem to get out of them, and less box.  At least that's what my ear is telling me.  The clip for "recorderman" gives this away.  That technique puts the mics closer to the kit.   Listen to any of the other clips, and compare it to that one and those toms sound punchier and a bit deeper.  It's subtle, really, but still fairly clear to me.  

The other thing to take away from this...in my very humbled opinion, is that if all you have are overheads to mic a drum kit, then why bother?  It sounds like crap.  Boxes and trash can lids far, far away...  Close mic'ing is imperative to good drum sound.  You have to get close to those shell heads unless you have a perfectly dead room.

I'd love to be wrong about that, but I can't imagine any amount of EQ'ing that's going to fix those clips and magically transform them into a good drum sound.  

I remember watching an recording session with the rolling stones at I think at Columbia. ??? but I cound be way off on that.
Anyway they had a wood board cover over the top of the kit. drum kit.
and if you have seen any early Hen house videos they had moving blankets in closing the kit.
That sad I No this... you don't want to pick up the room (Church space) there are too many things tat can go wrong. You need some try of barrier around the drums. list your mics and I or others as well can create a setup template.
 
Next they may have those portable  coat racks on wheel... I would use them filled with coats or hang blankets on them. The main Idea is not to keep the drums in , its to keep the reflections getting to the mics. First behind the drums to start. Then the sides.
You know that in the mix if the delay is bad you wont be able to mix the drums into the mix.
if you have some gobos... I bet
if you want more ideas or help.
Maybe this will be of help to you and its just my two cents... sounds like fun! Good luck!

If you've got a great drummer and a great kit... a snare, kick and 2 OH mics should cut it...carefully placing the OH so the cymbals don't dominate.  Grab a stereo pair of room mics too.  Don't worry about mic brands or types.  Look for your performance and the sound of the drums initially.  Let the drummer get your "mix"
 
If they're so-so drummers... mic as much as you can.

The genre that Reece is trying to record drums for is our band Scandalous Grace.  Sean has a Pro Engineer friend out in CA that said our songs were really good, but suggested that we track with a real drummer, instead of using midi drums.  
 
If you want to hear the style, we have 2 songs up on the songs forum.  

ChuckC
With What you have Beagle, try the kick mic, 1 pencil on the snare (facing away from the hats!) 2 large diaphragms as OH in a spaced pair about a foot above the cymbals, maybe to the inside to get the toms too.  Phase relation to the snare is important.   The other LD as a mono center room mic.   Listen and then augment if needed with the other pencil.  You may need to mic the ride or floor tom with the other pencil  You may not.

If you are depending on the Oheads to capture most of the drum sound, it so depends on the player.  If the drummer is one of these types that smashes the life out of cymbals (and many are) then it is not such a good way to go.  You may need all the close mics and just a trickle of the Oheads in order to end up with a reasonably well balanced kit sound at the end.  If the player is able to keep the cymbal balance right in line with all the other drums (many aren't) then you can do it.
 
(many drummers play the cymbals way too loud. You only have to caress a cymbal to get the sound out of it. They are LOUD! Also many drummers hit the snare WAY too hard as well. It is just so unnecessary. The snare drum is also a very LOUD drum and does not need to be hit anywhere near as hard as many drummers think. The only drums that you need to use power with are the toms and the kick in order to get a great drum sound. But it is very hard to control your power like that as you move over all the surfaces in a drum set)
 
In ChuckC's example I would go dynamic on snare and kick and condensers on OHeads.  Spaced pair Oheads won’t sum to mono all that great so you may want to factor that in.  (nice stereo image though)  A foot above the cymbals may be too close.  (for a cymbal smasher that is!)  Try 2/3 feet for example.  A near co-incident pair above is also nice too as it keeps the centre image a little weaker eg the snare which you may want also but it will sum to mono better.  Also measure the distance from the snare to the Oheads.  The sound will arrive at the OHeads a little later compared to the snare mic. eg 3 feet above would be 3mS.  So you may want to try sliding the Ohead sound 3 mS early for example in playback and the overall sound will change on the snare when you do this.  Not essential but it can have an effect too.
 
If the ceiling is very close to the drums, sound can bounce off the ceiling and come back down and mess with the OHead sound too.  (for the worse usually)  Some sort of sound damping above the kit is also nice if you can arrange it.
 

Something that I have found to be very useful when the resources are available is to close-mic along with room mics in different locations or using different room-mic techniques. If you are working with a genre or style that doesn't really need the close mics, don't include them in your mix. If there are any issues with the natural or room mics, you can always mix in close mics to taste (kind of like cooking). I find that regardless of the genre, it's nice to have a variety of tracks to choose and mix from. I don't always use all of my close-mic tracks, but it's nice to have them when you need them.

and he promoted 'bleed' in one of his vids, he said 'bleed is your friend' and demonstrated how indeed the kit sounded much stronger/better with bleed. So that seems to be something not to worry about anymore.
 

the room probably has more impact on the sound than the recording technique.

Voda La  
That's what I'm working on right now, myself, fixing the room.  

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