Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's?

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b rock
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2006/03/15 23:43:33 (permalink)

Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's?

The Backstory: OK, it's a long one, so let's skip to the end. Found Rapture (again), sprung for the Next-Day shipping, and now I'm at the front gate of the compound with my correct-address cardboard sign in hand. It's fluorescent paint, and I'm dressed in full gaucho regalia. You can't miss me. There's no excuse. Needless to say, I've got some time to kill during the all-night vigil. So I'm tooling around with some user-defined LFO concepts.

I realize that Rapture will accept any .wav file and interpolate to 4096 samples. Without putting any undue 'strain' on the interpolation algorithm, would it be best to limit my files to 4096 samples (or an even multiple of that)? I'm not doubting the 'scheme', but I am looking to start out with a solid system to all this. I don't want to do double-work later on. Maybe there's no need for concern about any rounding errors, especially considering the file size, and a destination as a control source. You tell me. And mono preferred?

So, I just drop an X Hz. waveform into Y samples (or seconds), and forget about it. or start dropping in 16 [SF] regions of 256 samples (for example), process each with the final (exact) file size in mind, and go for 100% accuracy. What I'm after is to mimic Stepgens with the UD-LFO's, and use them as one-shots, among other things. And I'd like to use simple waveforms and mathematics to get there.

I will have to pull up some formulas, at any rate. I've been fooling around with converting a given sample rate to time, and then figuring out the frequency that a .wav mind need to fit in a single (or multiple) cycle at the zero crossings. I've got the books; it's just opening up ideas (and shaking off the cobwebs) by doing this with a calculator. Plus, it's difficult to read by streetlight.

Forgive me if this is all in the manual. That'll be here tomorrow. One more small thing: the user-defined waveshape. It will complete a full 'cycle' in sync as the equivalent of 1 beat, not a (N/4) measure: correct? Any thoughts, guys, would be appreciated. How would you approach it?

Edited for accuracy.
// Yes, Dale. You can chime in here, too.
post edited by b rock - 2006/03/16 01:16:59
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    Rick McNab
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/15 23:58:14 (permalink)
    I'm as excited as you. I can't wait until YOU get it! Start posting MP3s ASAP please. Should we start a fund to get you high-speed internet? Seems like a whole bunch of providers in S Florida are offering DSL at a low cost. Maybe you're not in the service area.
    #2
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 00:05:58 (permalink)
    Maybe you're not in the service area.
    I'm not in anybody's service area, Rick. I can still get broadcast TV shows from the 70's.

    I've worked out a bit of a sneaker-net scheme, though, with some compassionate local souls. Those USB and CompactFlash cards are dirt cheap.
    I might take a day or so to dive into Rapture, but after that all hell breaks loose.
    #3
    Paradroid
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 05:13:05 (permalink)
    // Yes, Dale. You can chime in here, too.

    U R so talking to yourself here. Just chill out, man! Next thing you know, you'll be counting samples making sure sample_fadeout isn't short changing you any digits on those sexy clickless sample ends.

    Seriously, René shouldn't have mentioned the number 4096. It's just gonna distract you when really you should be slowing your pulse to avoid 'gator attack.

    Put it this way, if you can't trust René to interpolate a waveform with technical expertise, black-tie class & white glove care, who are you gonna trust?

    I guess it's a moot point for me since I'm not gonna do any faux-BPM-envelopes as a kind of passive protest.Instead, I'm grabbing nuggets from my el cheapo collection of CD singles and using micro-snippets of other peoples music to make fresh Ratpure.

    Oh, also, while I'm plugging Peter's software pre-“sfz edition” release, did you know that BeatCreator has a waveform formula builder? Just add in whatever math you want and it'll spit out a band-limitted waveform reader to O at a LF.I'll post a screenie when I get back on my own 'puter.

    Enjoy the fresh air while you wait for that courier… that makes two of us who're losing sleep over a wayward parcel.

    Slap a mozzie for me, would ya?
    #4
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 06:35:46 (permalink)
    Uh, oh. I must've dozed off for a few minutes. Someone stole my yerba mate, but (strangely enough), they left a bouquet of fresh cut flowers in its place.
    Oh well, after all, it *IS* Miami ...
    René shouldn't have mentioned the number 4096. It's just gonna distract you when really you should be slowing your pulse to avoid 'gator attack.
    You're spot on, Dale. I was just getting all fussy, and organized, and everything all aligned for proper production technique & study, and ...
    ... I guess that I was turning into *you*.
    Sound familiar? --> "However, since I'm a stickler for counting the samples and getting sampled loops/beats to perform as best they can, BeatCreator is my preferred option. It let's you zoom down to sample level and position a slice marker at the exact position a transient appears or an oscillation crosses the zero axis. Fiddly and pedantic but the results usually speak for themselves." I rest my case.
    if you can't trust René to interpolate a waveform with technical expertise, black-tie class & white glove care, who are you gonna trust?
    Shhh! I know that, and you know that. I just haven't had any justification to stir things up lately. Now I do.
    I guess it's a moot point for me since I'm not gonna do any faux-BPM-envelopes as a kind of passive protest.
    And I thought that *I* was stubborn ...
    Just add in whatever math you want and it'll spit out a band-limitted waveform reader to O at a LF.
    [Yawn]. Like using a preset? I'd like to do a little 'higher' math. 'B-culus', if you will.
    Enjoy the fresh air while you wait for that courier…
    What's taking these guys, anyway? It's been in the air almost 12 hours.
    post edited by b rock - 2006/03/16 07:14:11
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    René
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 07:28:42 (permalink)
    1- We can use any kind of wave file. However, to create those it's better to do mono, 44.1k in either 16/32-bit.
    2- We can use any size, but we'll reduce the loading time of the first instance if we stay with not-extremely-long sizes. If we use a 100MB, stereo wave file as LFO source, Rapture will need to read it, add both channels and resample it down to 4096 samples. Do this for all user slots and it might take a while to load. I suggest anything < 64k, i.e. 8192 samples.
    3- First of all, use your favorite wave editor to create a wave file then, in 44.1kHz, 16 or 32-bit and mono. I will use Audition for the example, feel free to translate into anything else.
    4- I will use the 'Generate Tones' algo in Audition, which is very cool. Feel free to use anything else.
    5- Generate Tones wants two params: Frequency and Length. As we want one cycle @ 44100, then we calculate

    Frequency = 44100 / 8192 = 5.38330078125 Hz (just copy/paste from calc into audition)
    Length = 8192 / 44100 (or 1 / Frequency, which comes for free as a one-button-touch in calc.exe) = 0.18575963718820861678004535147392

    6- Then tweak the partials: Audition will allow you to stack several partials on top of that waveform, adjusting each partial characteristics. Here's how it looks my tweak:




    7- Here's how the waveform look.




    8- Then save as Lfowaveform98.wav. Start Rapture, and select LFO waveform 98. Here it is:





    If you set LFO sync to 1, then that waveform will repeat every beat. If you're in 4/4 and set Sync to 4, then it'll repeat once each bar.


    -René
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    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 07:45:09 (permalink)
    Now that's support. Thank you, Rene. You saw exactly what I was after: getting started with a system that maximizes efficiency. FWIW: the pix didn't come up here immediately, but I can *see* what you mean anyway. (Oh. There they are!) I'm following a similar path in Sound Forge and "Simple Tones".

    The efficient parameters and the formulas are much appreciated. Last night, I was toying around with trial & error, and came real close to the numbers. Now, by dividing a waveform template into regions & selecting, I can modify specific "beats" within the cycle with easy processing commands. Even simple fades become powerful editing tools.

    Awesome. I settled on 44.1K as a standard myself, but I was thinking 1-to-1 with the 4096 number. Time to start saving some scripts of procedures. Next up: using the Ion (and z3ta+'s?) waveshaping features to *cheat* a little.

    The best support on the planet. Bar none. How many 'beers' are you up to on credit now ...?
    #7
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 08:30:34 (permalink)
    Sorry, Rene. I knew that I forgot something. I can find this out hands-on later, but it can't hurt to ask (nicely).

    Optimum waveform height (level)? I see that you've chosen +/- 3.3 dB. I was thinking that a level of +6dB would be equivalent to a "1" value in rgc:logic. So a 'bipolar' would be +/- 6dB (12 dB swing). It seems to me (I may be wrong here) that *ideal* would be +/- 3dB (from your pic above), and maybe you were just giving the algorithm enough room to work with. Did I hit or miss?

    Once again, I'm sure that anything you put in would be "normalized" in terms of vertical excursions. This is just me looking for the optimum starting point for a developing procedure. TIA
    #8
    René
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 08:47:25 (permalink)
    The level is whatever you want to see represented. I normalized that waveform before exporting. When normalized, you'll get full-scale in the DEPTH setting you set, which looks intuitive, so I'd suggest that.

    Beware of some programs (like the-one-you-use) not really cool at normalizing to 0dB, you might need to use small negative amounts to avoid overloading/clipping (-0.1dB is the common value when exporting to mp3).

    -René
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    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 09:05:04 (permalink)
    Thanks once again, Rene. And I appreciate the SF anecdote. I don't really trust "normalization" in any sense, so I always tend to fudge on the low side. I guess I was asking for a way to easily predict (as one example) what 25% or 33% of maximum would be as Rapture sees it. But what you're telling me is that it would be 25% or 33% of whatever the maximum level is in my audio editor during editing (export, actually). Makes sense; I should've made that connection.

    Didn't sleep much last night. Pretty close to a full moon.
    TY


    Edit: Wait a minute. I missed that, Chad. Must be these blazing dialup speeds. (They'll make your head spin.)
    Say again?
    post edited by b rock - 2006/03/16 09:29:24
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    René
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 09:24:46 (permalink)
    Full moons are great. One thing which might be worthy to mention: Many, many purposes will find you using the Step Gens as LFO.

    Using the 128 steps in the gen, and then using the smooth parameter to... well... smooth the transitions, you can quickly generate many waveforms, graphically. I'm very sure that you want to reserve the option to use both the stepgen and LFO, but still a cool thing.


    -René
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    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 09:41:36 (permalink)
    One thing which might be worthy to mention: Many, many purposes will find you using the Step Gens as LFO.
    Point well taken. You don't have to take the route I'm describing. StepGens: I've got some serious plans for those babies as well. I'm just thinking along the lines of using each "tool" in the kit for its unique qualites. We've discussed how StepGens are unipolar, but they can be offset in a couple of ways. And the enhanced MIDI Matrix parameters.

    LFO's bring their own 'quirks' to the table: a potentially finer level of control, bipolar and one shot. So, you can mimic one type of modulator with another, and still select exactly what characteristics you're looking for. Hey, for that matter, the 'preset' LFO's cover a lot of ground, especially 'Shift-ing" the phase.

    This is like getting that huge 10,000-piece Craftman mechanic's set of tools. Except that I'll actually use Rapture's tools.
    C'mon, UPS ...
    #12
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 10:07:45 (permalink)
    edit
    Oh, man. That's just cruel, Chad. Now I'll never know.
    You know this is going to bug the crap out of me. Up until Rapture gets here, that is.
    #13
    AT
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 10:09:49 (permalink)
    Chad,

    thanks for that one. Looks promising on all kinds of levels.

    @

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 11:14:16 (permalink)
    Thanks for the 'invite'. Done.

    Edit: A-HA! So it was you! As much as I enjoy the fresh flowers, I still want my yerba mate back.
    post edited by b rock - 2006/03/16 12:44:24
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    Rick McNab
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 12:43:23 (permalink)
    Expecting full step by step tutorial on becoming fluent with all manner of step gens and/or LFO, beginning at the beginning (my knowledge of LFO begins and ends with using a sine wave to create typical analog synth pitch modulation - you know the most basic application). I've always wanted to really dig in and learn all about what LFOs (step gens) can do. Looks like Rapture is the perfect synth for that.

    Where's FedEx?

    Save Ferris.

    Vote for Pedro.
    post edited by Rick McNab - 2006/03/16 12:49:14
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    AT
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 13:11:20 (permalink)
    Chad,

    was that for B-rock only? Should I delete my copy?

    Sorry!

    @

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #17
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 13:18:48 (permalink)
    Should I delete my copy?
    Er, um ... no, Alan. Whatever you might or might not have ... It was just a misunderstanding and a simple mistake. So ... ah ... enjoy the yerba mate. Just don't share the glass with anyone. You know: health always comes first.
    #18
    Paradroid
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 14:29:02 (permalink)
    use at your disposal

    Or should that be “discretion”? (Very tasty, BTW)
    #19
    AT
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 15:59:03 (permalink)
    Good,

    I'm glad I don't have to self-destruct. It is sooo messy and the maid just came.

    @

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #20
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 17:15:21 (permalink)
    I'm glad I don't have to self-destruct.
    I may not be as fortunate, AT. Different carrier, an incentive for prompt delivery, a roadside primer on directions, and still no chair when the music stops.
    On the upside, we still have a good 1 1/2 to two hours of daylight left. On the downside, I'm getting a little tired of seeing this one:

    MIAMI, FL, US 03/16/2006 9:23 A.M. A CORRECT STREET NUMBER IS NEEDED FOR DELIVERY. UPS IS ATTEMPTING TO OBTAIN THIS INFORMATION
    Nova Scotia: here we come. While I enjoy being outside the system in a number of ways, I thought that computerization might help in the delivery process.
    It's funny: I just got a new catalog immediately from AMS, delivered overnight to the same address by the USPS. Free.

    What's the "smiley face" for *groan*?


    Edit: Man, this would actually be very funny if it wasn't unfolding before my eyes. Two dozen phone calls later: "We had the package, but couldn't locate the driver. Now we find the driver in the building, and the package is there, but ... we can't find the package in the building."

    I swear this is really happening. I've got to give them credit; they're really trying to help, and calling every few minutes. But actually all I want to do is drive over there, and pick it up myself. And I can't do that, either. Until they find where Rapture's "hiding".

    Next-Day. Is that like the "Free Beer - Tomorrow" sign?

    Edit Again: This_close. I give up. I can't believe that they lost my Rapture. It's within a few miles of me ... somewhere ... lurking ...
    Someone out there doesn't want me to get Rene's synths. At least not without a struggle.
    post edited by b rock - 2006/03/16 19:55:57
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    MurderDethKill
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 21:09:39 (permalink)
    B, if yours is a valid street address and Rapture was ordered Next day (2nd day, doesn't matter) air, and it was not delivered on time, I do believe you are owed a refund on shipping....or maybe cake is which they can then refund to you (if you ask).
    Of course, I haven't worked @ United Puppy Squashers for a few years now so maybe the rules have changed...

    My site i guess;)
    Monstruousubergeekyhardcorefunkytrancepolkaoptimism Lives!!!
    #22
    AT
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/16 23:21:55 (permalink)
    B,

    I feel your pain. I live right off of Central Espressway in Dallas. They used to use West and East, but dropped that convention. Also, I live right between Dallas proper and the Park Cities, one of the original suburbs when Dallas was a small town (Park Cities is w/in Dallas proper now). So the addresses change about 3 times in 2 blocks. UPS etc. used to have a hard time finding me, although I have trained them better now. But I have had to go to the main office a couple of times. It used to be sooo frustrating.

    That doesn't help you, of course, but I've been there, too. Maybe you should lay out some of those strips with nails to make sure all the traffic stops in front of your place ; )

    @

    https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
    http://www.bnoir-film.com/  
     
    there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
    24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
    #23
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/17 08:05:17 (permalink)
    Thanks for the replies with compassion, guys. Today's another day. The "Next-Day", as a matter of fact. A refund on shipping is possible, but it's more about the principle than the cash here. It's funny, but I read AT's last sentence minutes after muttering "Severe Tire Damage!" to someone on the 'phone.

    Today's the day. It's GOT to be ...
    #24
    b rock
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    RE: Rene, Chad: How Would U-D(o) LFO's? 2006/03/17 11:30:44 (permalink)
    Footnote: The Neverending Story just did. I tracked down Rapture and went to pick it up myself. In case this isn't clear, this is the combination of a delivery service problem, coupled with an off-the-beaten-path address. Cake did their part, their outside vendor held up their part of the bargain, and I tried everything in my power to offset the logistics on my end.

    I did find out something about the current policy of my delivery service in the process, though, and I'm posting again here simply to relay what I was told. When you sign up for a time-limited delivery option, the delivery service is obligated to your vendor to accomodate that. The vendor, in turn, is obligated to you --> the paying customer. So, the service makes good to the vendor, and it's up to you to derive satisfaction from the vendor yourself.

    Disclaimer: This may vary from service to service, and locale to locale; blah blah blah.
    #25
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