Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a?

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bitSync
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2013/07/24 10:39:08 (permalink)

Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a?

I'm looking for opinions here.  I've been running my DAW with no antivirus on it, concerned about whether it would interfere with Sonar X2a.  I have a BitDefender license but I've been hesitant to install it.  My DAW is connected to the Internet but I browse from the DAW only to check vendor forums, YouTube tutorials, etc.  Even so, you never know where you're gonna catch something.  I feel fortunate that I haven't picked anything up (I think) but I'm worried that might not last much longer.  And I've never done a full system scan with an antivirus program.
 
If I install my BitDefender antivirus license on the DAW and I keep it turned off when X2a is running, what do you think are the chances that my X2a experience will not degrade?  Grateful for any advice on this.
 
 

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    ston
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 11:44:39 (permalink)
    IMO, the most important aspect of internet security is to sit behind a firewall, which is typically a NAT firewall living in your modem/router.  In addition, Windows has its own built-in firewall.  These protect against malicious inbound connections, port scanning attacks etc.
     
    Due to this inbound protection, the only way malicious software can get a foothold on your computer is via an outbound connection you make (unless you do something really crazy like run a nasty executable).
     
    So as long as you're careful enough to not visit dodgy websites, open obviously su****ious emails etc. (and especially not clicking any links in such), all should be well.  In addition, I would suggest not to open any ports though your firewall (i.e. don't provide external services) unless you know what you're doing.
     
    I personally just use the built-in AV software that comes with Windows 7, ' Windows Defender' I think it's called, and it's never caused any performance issues for me.  A reasonable policy would be to always make sure your AV software is active if you're accessing the internet, but otherwise you could disable it if you find that it affects performance of the DAW software.  A regular scan of the file system's not a bad idea either, schedule it for when you're not using the computer.
     
    [edit, why the hell is 's u s p i c i o u s' dumped upon by the forum's word filter? :-(
    edit 2: I think I know why now, that really is quite far beyond stupid]
    post edited by ston - 2013/07/24 11:55:49
    #2
    sharke
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 12:05:20 (permalink)
    I have Windows Defender active on my machine all the time and I don't think it's caused any degradation in performance. There really is no need to install any 3rd party virus software these days. People rave about Avast and the like, but I don't believe they offer any advantages to Microsoft's stock antivirus. 
     
    The only other advice I could give you would be to make sure you add your plugin folders to the exception list in your antivirus. If you don't, you're in for some long waits whenever Sonar scans your plugs (which is upon every startup I believe)? I learned this from my Pro Tools days, when the program would take upwards of a minute to launch until I figured this out. 

    James
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    #3
    jm24
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 12:06:33 (permalink)
    I have MS security essentials on the music computer for w7.  And use the windows defender (default) for w8.
     
    I do use the music computer to surf for music stuff.  Especially this forum when needed. But most web action takes place on other computers.  I do not use the music computer for email.
     
    I use a NAT router, and the windows firewall is enabled.
     
    Never had an infection on the music computer, in 13 years+.
     
    In all, in 29 years of computing I prolly have had about 8 ****ty infections.   Mainly this has happened when accidentally clicking the wrong spot just as the requester for installation was displayed. And when mistyping a website address.
     
    The first infection was about 12 years ago that came in with a friend's infected email message. Norton issued an update about 20 minutes later.
     
    Only have had 2 infections that required extreme actions: using restore points.  Most all others were eradicated using Spybot, super anti spyware, mal ware bytes, and Kaspersky scanners.
     
     
    #4
    Beepster
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 12:21:27 (permalink)
    Microsoft Security Essentials is light, free and effective (it was recommended to me by Cakewalk). It does not seem to interfere with my DAW at all and I do not disable it nor have I changed any settings. Another REALLY good idea is to use a browser that you can add Adblock+ and NoScript to as add ons. They will stop a ton of unnecessary crap from loading while surfing the net and they really clean up the pages. You do need to set these up a bit though so learn how to use them. For example there is a setting in Adblock that allows some ads to get through. Disable that. In NoScript go to the Whitelist section and remove any websites/domain names that you know you aren't going to use, then if you want you can add the site you do want to use but I usually just allow stuff as I surf. Some things are necessary like here I have to allow the main Cakewalk domain to make the login bubble work. On Youtube I have to allow the youtube main domain AND a domain called ytimg.com (which I believe stands for You Tube Image). It does take a little experimenting but is WELL worth it and blocks tons of nefarious crap.
     
    On my heavy internet usage I use Avast though because I think it's a little more powerful but I cannot confirm that. On the DAW I hardly do anything online unless I have to and the sites I got to are trusted/verified so MSE is fine.
     
    Another thing that a lot of people overlook is creating a system image of the hard drives of their working system. If something catastrophic happens like a virus or a hard drive failure you can go back to that point in time. It will wipe out everything else like any viruses, new programs or bad registry changes. It does however get rid of any new files as well so back those up. Another option is recovery points. This will leave your files intact when you restore it to that point. It will only remove new programs and registry changes which is generally where viruses are going to be. System images take quite some time to save and eat up a lot of hard drive space so they aren't something you want to do all the time but restore points are quicker and less capacity eating.
     
    A few other tools to look at for scanning your system are Malwarebytes, Spybot Search, Destroy, CCleaner (this is just a registry cleaner but a good one) and HiJackThis (which is confusing and hard to use but the most effective of the bunch so worth learning). Always be very careful with those types of programs though because they can remove things you NEED and screw up your system.
     
    If you think you have a virus it's good to run these scans in Windows Safe Mode instead of when the system has booted up fully. That way any viruses/malware doesn't get a chance to interfere with your AV software.
     
    As far as Bitdefender... I've never used it but I do know that MSE is probably the lightest AV out there so it really is likely the best choice for a DAW.
     
    I hope that is helpful. Many people have many different opinions of this stuff but I learned all I know from some serious computer freaks and one guy in specific who teaches advanced computer stuff to people getting into the IT field.
    #5
    Mesh
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 12:22:22 (permalink)
    +1 for Microsoft Security Essentials or for Win8, Windows Defender. It doesn't interfere with anything while I'm on the DAW (on my older machine, it does its updates around 4am when I'm in bed) and does everything in the background.
     
    Malware Bytes is also an excellent free program to have. 

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    #6
    brconflict
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 12:24:45 (permalink)
    The only time I experienced any issues with Bit-Defender with X2a is while recording 16+ tracks simultaneously. It would merely stop X2 (drop-outs) occasionally, but slightly more frequently than with it disabled, but it was much worse when recording multiple takes in a single session of 16+ tracks simultaneously. I ended up disabling BitDefender, and making each take an entirely different project in Sonar. I also disabled Auto-Save, which, for some reason, seemed to be the last thing that I disabled and got no further drop-outs. Could just be a coincidence.
     
    Although I could not determine for 100% certainty whether BitDefender or something else was to blame for the drop-outs, changing the buffer settings in Preferences for Recording didn't help, and I was able to finish the session out by keeping each take separate Sonar Project files.
     
    Next time I record Live, I'll perform some other tests here to see more of what was causing the issues.
     
    My advice is to learn how to quickly disable BitDefender when tracking. Then re-enable it afterward.
    I stopped using BitDefender altogether, and simply just use Microsoft's own protection software.

    Brian
     
    Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
    #7
    Beepster
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 12:29:44 (permalink)
    Another thing I'll say is if I cannot download a program directly from the manufacturers website I will use CNET.com for the download. They also have a ton of useful info and reviews on these programs. Another couple good sites for computer related info and security are tomshardware, bleeping computer and the HiJackThis forums. The HijackThisForums will actually allow you to submit the report HJT creates and the guys there will analyze it and tell you what to keep and what to remove because it lists EVERYTHING running on your system. That makes it very difficult to interpret for the average computer user. I have never submitted a report though but have identified unnecessary process by googling the process with the term HiJackThis added. This is not limited to viruses either. You can have little tidbits from old programs or if your system came preloaded with bloatware you can get rid of that stuff. Even a fresh install of Windows will have unneeded gack like Internet Explorer redirects and other nonsense. It's kind of interesting in a really dull geeky way.
     
    ;-)
     
    Edit: I should probably mention that if you have MSE, a browser with Adblock and NoScript installed and set up and make sure you have a good system image and some restore points and only do minimal surfing on trusted sites then 99.9999999999999% of the time you won't need to worry about any of that other stuff. It's more for really heavy internet users or repairing machines where the user wasn't taking proper security precautions.
    post edited by Beepster - 2013/07/24 12:38:47
    #8
    SuperG
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 12:59:42 (permalink)
    Hmmm...
     
    Here's my setup:
     
    I use Norton Internet Security. It's a fairly comprehensive product - it's works with your browser to detect bogosity and trojans, works with your email (I use MS Exchange Outlook), and of course works as an antivirus, both automatic and manual scans. Contrary to popular belief, it's not a resource hog, and it doesn't impact the Daw as far as I can tell. Norton keeps their product up-to-date, and there is usually a discount on the annual renew. It's a subscription, one of the few I'd recommend. I'm quite satisfied with it.
     
     

    laudem Deo
    #9
    jb101
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 13:08:55 (permalink)
    +1 to norton. I think it gained a reputation as a resource hog, but that is not deserved now

    It works well here. If I have clients in, then I turn it off. It's not caused any problems before, but I do it just in case.

     Sonar Platinum
    #10
    Stipes Vigilo
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 13:18:03 (permalink)
    I have a separate computer for most internet stuff (like this).
    I run a script before running the DAW that disables all the internet connection and securities that go along with it - and have since gone to a wireless USB wifi which I pull completely from the machine when not in use.  And I've uninstalled all mail clients. The only time I allow internet to run is during an install for challenge/response/software updates. Windows updates, I've become judicious about which ones I allow and keep it off most of the time. This all seems to work well enough, but now it's really getting time for me to venture into Core 'Lasso-ing' (Directing which cores are used by which programs & OS). I've been a bit lazy in getting on that.
     
    Oh, and the basic MS Security Essentials/Firewall work fine for all that.
    #11
    SuperG
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 13:30:28 (permalink)
    Can't knock MS Security Essentials. I use it for the casual PC's here at home.
     
    As for back-up I, use Retrospect - besides the workstation it's running on, it comes with 5 additional remote client licenses too. It's backing up four desktops and a laptop. It's also cross-platform, so if you have Linux or Mac boxes, you can back those up too.
     

    laudem Deo
    #12
    mmorgan
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 13:34:57 (permalink)
    A + for MS Security Essentials (since the OP is on Win 7)
     
    Regards


    Mike

    Win8(64), Sonar X3e(64) w/ RME Fireface UFX.
    #13
    Beepster
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 13:46:50 (permalink)
    Here's the thing, and I'm not saying Norton or the other AVs have not improved as far as efficiency because I'm sure they have, but what are these conclusions being based on? I'm genuinely curious so don't take it the wrong way. Are you monitoring the performance in comparison to MSE? Tech articles and shootouts on the subject? Or is it because you don't notice as many problems? I say this because the difference may lie in the fact that computers and internet connections are much faster than they used to be. For example on my old underpowered laptops I tried a few different AVs like AVG, Norton (free version) and Spyware doctor before learning about Avast. AVG and the others made the systems almost useless (this was however about 5 years ago). They didn't just freeze up during the definition updates they were just horribly slow in general. Once I installed Avast everything was much snappier and the only time I really had any lags was if I was trying to do something like load a bulky webpage or play a video and the definition updates started loading as well so I'd just wait for a few minutes and things would go back to normal. Once I bought my new laptop those lags completely disappeared and I don't even notice Avast doing anything unless it happens to snag a bad page or something is trying to screw around with my system (which rarely happens because of ABP and NoScript and the fact I don't scrape the underbelly of the internet). I haven't tested the other AVs on this system aside from the "free" MaCafee (sp?) that came with it (which BTW DID make the system slower) so I do not know what, if any, kind of drains they'd cause so seriously I am just asking out of curiosity.
     
    MSE has for the most part consistently beat out the rest of the pack as far as resource issues and ranked very high for virus prevention (although they've slipped a bit in those rankings but last I checked it was only some of the more expensive paid AVs  topping them like Kapersky).
     
    Basically if it works for you guys that's great but you may have more powerful systems than others and/or not be doing stuff that is as resource intensive as other folks. The true measure of these types of things are benchmark tests. I'll admit I have not viewed what the various reviewers/testers have come up with in the past year or so and some of those can be skewed due to the testers not wanting to PO their advertisers. All I know is last time I checked MSE was right at the top of the lists, is free, was recommended by Cake tech support, does not need to be turned off or have any settings changed and seems to work on my system. I did have an odd thing happening a little while ago that I thought might be a virus but after a ton of scans with the programs I mentioned earlier I found nothing except some false positives. I think it may have been some kind of BIOS warning but it has disappeared now so IDK.
     
    Again not saying I'm right or you guys are wrong. I just think it's important stuff to consider because virus protection, especially on a DAW, is a pretty serious topic and deserves appropriate attention to not only avoid viruses and malware but to make sure any problems with Sonar or other programs aren't because the AV is doing something funky. And that funkiness doesn't even necessarily need to be resource related. It might look at legit programs and cause weirdness especially considering many of the things we use are pretty darned obscure. That's exactly how I got my false positives when running my scans a few weeks ago.
     
    Food for thought. Hope you've all been well. Cheers.
    #14
    WDI
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 14:38:06 (permalink)
    So far MSE has been transparent after using it a couple years. I just recorded a 2 hours straight through 20 track at once session last night including having AC7 connected. No problems including mix down. And my computer is pretty old now. MSE has been much better then when I used to use ZoneAlarm and Norton. But it's been many years since I used Zone Alarm and Norton. The computer is always online and I have done zero optimizations for a DAW.

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    bitSync
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 15:09:01 (permalink)
    Thank you all for your helpful feedback; this forum is fantastic. 
     
    Lots to think about here, but I'm encouraged by the reports of Microsoft's Windows Defender and Security Essentials in Win7.  I suppose I've been using Windows Defender without really being aware; I'll check the next time I boot up, but if it runs by default I'm probably running it.  I'm also NATed behind a firewall, and I don't have any oddball ports open on the router.  I don't run MS Office or anything like that, it's essentially all audio/video applications on this machine.  I'll occasionally read/send email via a webmail interface, but I don't open any link I don't trust.  Hopefully, if I browse responsibly I should continue to be OK...
     
    @sharke, thanks for the tip about the AV folder exception list for the plugin folders; I can always use another 60 seconds, seriously.
     
    @SuperG, backup, which I'm not currently doing (I know, I know...), is my next adminstrative chore for the DAW.  I'll be sure to check out Retrospect, thanks.

    Win7 Pro x64 SP1 / SONAR Platinum x64 (latest) / Mackie d8b + D8Bridge x32 v1.1 = MCU DAW Controller / Frontier TranzPort DAW Controller / Studiocat 3.20 GHz Intel i7 950, 24 GB DDR3 1600 RAM, Gigabyte GA-X58A-UD3R 2.0 Mainboard, 2TB SATA3 SSD / NVIDIA GeForce 9500 GT v341.95 / RME HDSP9652 PCI (ASIO) / RME ADI-8 QS / 24 bit at 44.1 / New Belgium 1554 / My Stuff

    #16
    ugp
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/24 15:44:05 (permalink)
    I've been using sandboxie for a couple year, with no problems, though I do run something like adware search and destroy
    #17
    ston
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/25 04:05:37 (permalink)
    Quite a good Q&A page explaining Windows Defender and MS Security Essentials on Win 7 and 8:
     
    http://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/protect/forum/mse-protect_start/windows-defender-and-microsoft-security-essentials/5309cb8d-02e1-40e8-974f-0dcedb9ab9fd
     
    In light of this I think I'll check that I have SE on my DAW machine :-)
    #18
    CJaysMusic
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/25 12:21:24 (permalink)
    These days it doesn't matter. Its not even thought upon with todays Pc's. Install what ever antivirus program you want and nothing will happen to sonar and its performance.  Its an exaggerated point that got taken to far. I even bought into it for awhile until I actually tried some of the so called heavy hitter, CPU intensive antiviral software.
     
    If an antivirus program is hindering you from using Sonar, you have got bigger problems
    Cj

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    #19
    brconflict
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/25 12:28:39 (permalink)
    Caveat: AntiVirus software can affect the performance of Sonar. If the A/V software is running any kind of scan on your actively working hard-drive, Sonar will certainly, and profoundly be affected, performance-wise. I highly recommend setting scans to run at a time when Sonar isn't in use. The reason is that two software applications are competing for I/O, and your system must thread these by interleaving the I/O throughput. A/V will run as fast as your system will let it, although Sonar, may only need a fairly consistent I/O throughput. Sonar may not affect the A/V scan times, but the A/V scans can certainly affect the I/O available for Sonar.

    Brian
     
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    #20
    Glyn Barnes
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    Re: Requesting Advice - Antivirus with X2a? 2013/07/27 11:59:48 (permalink)
    Don't forget the risk from USB sticks and other removable media and mobile devices. At work we have recently seen a virus spread on Garmin GPS devices. Fortunatly the enterprise version of MS anti virus prevented it from causing damage on the the computers.
     
    MS Defender seems to be pretty good when coupled with a bit of common sense from the user.

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