Helpful ReplyRise of the Machines

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bitflipper
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2016/08/06 09:43:27 (permalink)

Rise of the Machines

Back in the 80's, I was enroute to some Elsewhere or another and engaged in casual conversation with a fellow air traveler. He made the comment that he had complete confidence in modern airplanes because "they're flown by computers nowadays".
 
At the time, I was a computer fix-it guy who spent his days facing down broken computers and who witnessed them routinely taking down entire companies when they misbehaved. Hardware was pretty reliable, but software was always the wild card. It did not comfort me in the slightest that the machine I'd entrusted with my life was "flown by computers".
 
At the time, the Internet was in its infancy and was primarily a toy for us techno-geeks to share knowledge. SPAM was still a Monty Python sketch, and it was rare to get an email from somebody you didn't know. Computer security meant a lock on the computer room door. Computers and networks remained the domain of nerds, who might cause problems due to excessive curiosity and self-confidence but never ruined anyone's life.
 
Porn ruined everything. It brought big money, and big money brought shady characters. Identity theft, scams and cons soon followed. We nerds, in our hubris believed we could fight back with technology. SMTP became ESMTP. Encryption went to 128 bits. Network connections went virtual. Anti-virus software became as standard as email. Public pressure forced Microsoft to institute draconian security measures so restrictive that some software failed to even run.
 
But all along, it never even occurred to us that computerizing every aspect of the human experience, even when it wasn't needed, was the root problem. We just didn't know when to stop. Not because we wanted to see where technology could take us, but because there was money to be made. Not because a computer wouldn't lose your bag at the airport, but because it could get your bag to the carousel faster - even if that carousel was in the wrong city.
 
The computer in your car can make sure you shift gears at the right time, assure the right air/fuel ratio, and warn you when your air filter's clogged. But it also makes it possible for an evildoer to remotely kill your car as you barrel down the freeway. And, as it turns out, allows something as basic as the key you use to open the door and start the car to fail.
 
Check out this article, which tells how thieves stole 100 new cars using only a laptop. Note that these guys were just a couple of street thugs, not software engineers. They got the software and instructions via the internet. The same miracle connection that let me meet other coders in 1988 now instructs know-nothing kids on bomb-making, hacking (once a noble art), scams and thievery.
 
Sure, it still serves its original purpose, too. It lets us share knowledge here on this forum, and I wouldn't want to give that up. But do we really need to relinquish every decision, to trust every aspect of our lives to software? Do we really need microprocessors in our toasters, to have a network connection to our refrigerators? Do we want to trust voting machines that we already know can be manipulated? To leave it to software to decide when a nuclear power plant is about to blow?
 
There is currently a call for modernizing the nuclear launch mechanism. Personally, I'm glad it still relies on 1980's technology.
 


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

My Stuff
#1
craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 09:52:06 (permalink)
Excellent topic!
 
This is an auto generated response.  Do not reply to this post.

 
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sharke
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 10:05:09 (permalink)
Turn your key sir!
TURN YOUR KEY!

James
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smallstonefan
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 10:25:39 (permalink)
I'm with you Bit - as long as they can maintain the current missile systems then the risks for creating an entirely new system far outweigh any benefits.
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jamesg1213
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 10:31:10 (permalink)
All I know is, up until the late '80's I managed a sign manufacturing company doing a £1,000,000 annual turnover armed with some A4 notebooks, a tape measure and occasionally a polaroid camera.
 
We had a couple of Apple IIe's for running CNC routers and the like, but business was conducted by telephone and fax machine. If I went out, I wasn't contactable until I got back to the office. This was rarely a problem.
 
I used to drive all over the country, regularly around London, and to this day I have never used GPS or SatNav. If I'm going somewhere I haven't been before, I look at a map first, and road signs when I get there.
 
I do use a computer for my gardening business, spreadsheets for the accountant, and printing invoices. I could just as easily do those by hand if necessary.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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BobF
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 10:57:48 (permalink)
I'm a rebel too.  My cell phone is dumb and stays in my vehicle most of the time.  With a dead battery.
 
As for the missiles?  We don't need the missiles at all, much less modernized versions.  I used to ride around underwater with 160 nuke warheads and a nuke power plant.  Meh.  Strategic scale weaponry is sooooo 80s.  We have much greater need for tactical tools to fight our battles.  Everybody worries about this politician or that having access to "the button".  Never mind the fact that that is a gross oversimplification of how it works, the real solution is to not have "the button".
 
I agree about toasters and refers and such.  A lot of my buying decisions are based on having fewer things to go wrong.
 
What were we talking about again?
 

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sharke
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 12:33:56 (permalink)
I get the point being made here but there is no denying that my business is made 1000x easier with automation. My life would be so much harder without email, smartphones, calendars I can share with employees, automated invoices I can email, online payment, notes and spreadsheets I can keep in the cloud and sync across devices etc. God knows how much paper I'd be using otherwise, and as someone who has a little OCD and whose brain doesn't work if surrounded by mess and clutter, being able to replace reams of paper and notebooks and the like with one neat little device that sits on my impeccably tidy desktop is a huge psychological boost even without the practical benefits. 

James
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#7
Siluroo
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 13:43:43 (permalink)
I do not have a mobile phone, I was using it so infrequently that I kept losing it, or the battery would go flat.
 
I guess it depends what you are doing, when I was a PC tech, on 24hr callout, I used to live by a phone, as did the people I was dealing with, everybody was running around in circles chasing their tails, trying to be super efficient, real rat race city stuff.
 
Now with what I do, its all face to face stuff, with any changes to times getting sorted out days to weeks in advance.
 
I have a tablet I have an android tablet I have not used in 3 months or more, possibly 6 months, and even when I was using it, it was for reading technical books.
 
My current rule is that internet is desktop computer only, and all phone calls go to a wall phone, and if I am not near either of them when somebody tries to contact me, they will just have to wait.
 
However, life without a microwave would be challenging, it has to be best invention in my life time I think.

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drewfx1
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 13:57:44 (permalink)
I want to get some Wi-Fi ligtbulbs so I can call my lights from my phone:
 

 
 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
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craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 16:48:46 (permalink)

 
Be sure to get the companion app for the best interaction.

 
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jamesg1213
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 16:53:36 (permalink)
Craig, I think you may be somewhat obsessed with sheep.

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 17:20:28 (permalink)
jamesg1213
Craig, I think you may be somewhat obsessed with sheep.




You say that like it's a bad thing! 

 
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BobF
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 17:50:57 (permalink)
craigb
jamesg1213
Craig, I think you may be somewhat obsessed with sheep.




You say that like it's a bad thing! 




It's a ba-a-a-a-d thing

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craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 19:17:57 (permalink)
See?  Can't pull the wool over Bob's eyes.  

 
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BobF
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 19:31:27 (permalink)
When they see you do they bleat out, "Da-a-a-a-a-a-d-ee!"?

Bob  --
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drewfx1
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 19:37:32 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bapu 2016/08/08 13:46:17
And to think that without the advanced modern technology that innumerable smart and often idealistic people spent untold hours working to create, a discussion like this could never take place... 

 In order, then, to discover the limit of deepest tones, it is necessary not only to produce very violent agitations in the air but to give these the form of simple pendular vibrations. - Hermann von Helmholtz, predicting the role of the electric bassist in 1877.
#16
craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/06 19:48:08 (permalink)
Mental note to self:  Avoid the chewing end.

 
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DrLumen
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 02:04:38 (permalink)
I'm surprised by the number of techies in here. I guess I really shouldn't be.
 
I'm not concerned too much about the machines themselves but I do agree that this IoT is getting way out of hand. I believe there are things, like this forum and the internet in general, that are great. However, people are connecting things to the internet that just shouldn't be connected. There would not be the issue of hacking or virus infections of banks or utilities or govt agencies or nuclear facilities and missile installations if they were on a dedicated and separate network. I guess the whole idea of air gaps or deadnets are a thing of the past.
 
I know there are certain things I wont ever use. I do have a smartphone (great for playing solitaire or reading a book in the Dr's waiting room) but things like ZWave door locks and smartphone access to security systems seem to be just asking for trouble. We can slum and use keys for the door locks and enter a security code.
 
While I haven't gone to the phone controlled lights, I am a firm believer in home automation. Not so much out of convenience but for power saving and monitoring and control of some things. It is on a separate network and is not connected to the internet. I don't need to control the home system remotely as that kind of defeats the whole idea of automation. :)

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craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 02:25:44 (permalink)
I've seen two people sitting next to each other at a bar...  texting each other.  I've had a roommate downstairs text me while I'm upstairs with my door open (I mean, really???!).  No wonder I like small, furry animals better than other human-like entities. 

 
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soens
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 04:00:14 (permalink)


#20
Siluroo
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 04:32:33 (permalink)
Maschines in construction, specifically 3D printing houses
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SObzNdyRTBs
 
http://www.wasproject.it/...-continuiamo-a-salire/

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#21
ston
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 05:17:34 (permalink)
Computer systems aren't 'other', they're expressions of humans.  That includes the mistakes and cock ups humans make.  I've always said that before computers, people could only royally screw up say 10-20 times a day, hour, whatever.  Now, with modern computing, we can make millions of mistakes per second.  The scary bit is the rate of change and development; legislation is not struggling to keep up with this rate of change, it is completely and utterly failing to do so.
 
Porn ruined everything?  I disagree.  Us, the consumer, all of us, ruined everything.  For some reason, nearly everybody had the attitude that everything on the internet should be free.  We refused to pay for any content or service, so how then was the enormous cost of running the WWW to be funded?  Welcome to the rise of ... not the machine, but bloody Google who transformed the entire internet into their marketing b1tch.  Welcome to the new world of malvertising.  I suggest not to click on any adverts ;-)
 
On the subject of aeroplanes, such systems are programmed in ADA typically which, incredibly, I do trust.
 
Disclaimer: the above was written on Monday morning whilst my caffeine/blood ratio was dangerously low.
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Siluroo
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 06:21:48 (permalink)
ston
Porn ruined everything?  I disagree.  Us, the consumer, all of us, ruined everything.
 

I remember reading in an Australian IT journal how porn sites were pushing the online purchasing development, due to the volume of transactions and demand.  Back then companies such as Microsoft/Novell/Netscape were using porn companies as there test beds for next generation online marketing sales software and security simply because of the volume of sales and traffic.
 
I doubt this has changed much.
 
Its the consumers demand for porn that forced a lot of changes, that a cultural and social issue, not a technological one!
 
http://sexual-sanity.com/...-internet-pornography/
 
 
 
 

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BobF
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 07:30:12 (permalink)
craigb
I've seen two people sitting next to each other at a bar...  texting each other.  I've had a roommate downstairs text me while I'm upstairs with my door open (I mean, really???!).  No wonder I like small, furry animals better than other human-like entities. 




The bar thing is a stretch ... BUT, if you think about, text messaging is the ultimate way to communicate.  Being asynchronous, it facilitates max efficiency with very little queuing and "I/O blocking".
 
ADA ... I did some time with the Countess.  I was impressed on paper, but in practice it's way over engineered.  IMO, of course.
 
 

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#24
craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 08:14:39 (permalink)
The Government used to love ADA.  I could tell you about some systems coded with ADA that were used by, er, the transportation device Bob used to be in!
 
(But I won't!)

 
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ston
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 08:21:49 (permalink)
I think pr0n is going to be driving current VR tech forwards too... ;-)
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craigb
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 08:28:38 (permalink)
ston
I think pr0n is going to be driving current VR tech forwards too... ;-)





 
Your comment reminded me of this cartoon.  Then I saw the date in it, I guess everyone back in the 80's thought we would be farther along now than we are.  Personally, I blame idiocracy for the lack of progress.

 
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sharke
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 09:19:31 (permalink)
ston
On the subject of aeroplanes, such systems are programmed in ADA typically which, incredibly, I do trust.


ADA may stop planes crashing into each other but you have to wonder what would happen if the power went out and backup supplies failed. The entire Delta computer system crashed today because of a "power cut." Granted that has nothing to do with ADA but it makes you realize that it's not even so much our dependence on computers but also our dependence on electricity!

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BobF
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 09:46:07 (permalink)
craigb
The Government used to love ADA.  I could tell you about some systems coded with ADA that were used by, er, the transportation device Bob used to be in!
 
(But I won't!)




I was actually most familiar with java's ancestor; p-code machines.  And old UNIVAC machine & assembly languages.  C was taking over the world while ADA was still sucking up taxpayer dollars, so that's the direction I went.  Once Stroustrup's genius was widely implemented, I never looked back.  Once my management lobotomy was done, I didn't look forward much either
 
Thanks for keeping our secrets safe craig!!
 

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#29
BobF
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Re: Rise of the Machines 2016/08/08 09:46:46 (permalink)
craigb
ston
I think pr0n is going to be driving current VR tech forwards too... ;-)





 
Your comment reminded me of this cartoon.  Then I saw the date in it, I guess everyone back in the 80's thought we would be farther along now than we are.  Personally, I blame idiocracy for the lack of progress.




I wish they would get on with it already!

Bob  --
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