Rain
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Room Treatment - part deux
Hi guys, We're moving into the house starting tomorrow and I am back w/ a bit more info and maybe a couple of questions. The room I'll work in is pretty small - I don't have the exact dimension but I'd say 11 x 15 maybe - 15 at its max, there's actually a closet taking a few feet off of that. Here is a sketch, nothing too accurate, but it gives you an idea.  Issue no 1 - the door prevents me from installing a bass trap in that corner of the room. (the sketch isn't accurate, the door basically takes the whole space there. Issue no 2 - this is a a house we rent (at least for now) and I can't do anything too drastic (so I can't just get rid of that closet to gain a few feet or whatever). Also worth considering - The floor isn't wood but a rug. Having had to deal w/ such little rooms in the past, I think that in this case, it's preferable. I am considering having heavy curtains covering the entire wall where the window is (in front of the desk/behind the monitors), w/ bass traps in each corner. I may use a similar strategy to hide the closet's sliding mirror doors. One thing I'm thinking about is building the 4 corner bass traps w/ stands, and just push them in each corner - which would also avoid drill holes in the walls. Would that defeat the purpose? If I built them as such, one of my options for the odd corner would be to have the bass trap not in the corner but a couple of feet away from it - same distance as the other corner on that side of the room. But then, would it still be of any use? Any thought would be greatly appreciated.
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Rain
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 00:26:58
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I should mention - the desk will be the only piece of furniture in the room. I'll also have an amp and a couple of guitars, but nothing acoustic will be recorded in that room - it's strictly dedicated to songwriting/midi recording/mixing.
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trimph1
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 02:00:26
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I'm almost thinking that some plywood panels covered with cloth fabric might do the trick?
Otherwise one can just cover the walls with drapery material ... using velcro strips glued to the walls by the ceiling...kind of.
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 08:31:20
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You gotta do what you gotta do....
Carpet/rug on the floor, bare walls and closet door mirrors.... as a starting point.
I would hang curtains the entire length of the window wall. Not only as a sound reflection absorber but also to add privacy from the neighbors. And perhaps some sort of homemade absorption media, even if it's something like a piece of thin plywood wrapped in foam and cloth covered and hang it on the side walls. Decorative in nature allows it to double as art work.
One thing you don't want to do is end up with a space that is too dead. So it might take some experimenting to get the balance in reflective and absorptive surfaces.
Since it's not an acoustic recording/tracking room, and will be used for mixing and writing, I would consider ARC if you don't already have it to do the room correction. But I'm guessing that once you get the room configured a bit you could record there as well.
My website & music: www.herbhartley.com MC4/5/6/X1e.c, on a Custom DAW Focusrite Firewire Saffire Interface BMI/NSAI "Just as the blade chooses the warrior, so too, the song chooses the writer "
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batsbrew
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 10:17:20
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AT
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 10:52:26
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I like those Bat :-) Nice that you can hang and slide them from the looks, tho I imagine it would take some heavy duty wireup.
If you can make standing absorbers, like gobos, you could put that in front of the door. As I understand it, up to a point the farther you put an bass trap etc. from the wall, the more energy gets absorbed as the attenuated way bounces back from the wall back into the trap. So that should work.
Right now I've got a sun room (9x7 or so) that I'm starting to use for tracking. Since it was a kid's bedroom there are blinds and such over the two windowed walls. It sounds pretty dead, but not suffocated. There is a single bed since it is a spare bedroom now, and small wardrobe and a bunch of storage junk. That helps w/ absorption and relfection, tho I need to do something w/ the wall above the bed and the ceiling.
Your room is bigger. Bass traps sound good (pun intenede), maybe even a shallow shelf unit behind the board for dispersale (and w/ books more absorption). And handy for storage to boot. Do the bass traps first and then start fine tuning. Also, there will probably be other people in there at times. Don't overlook how a chair(s) etc. will affect the room tone.
@
https://soundcloud.com/a-pleasure-dome
http://www.bnoir-film.com/ there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. 24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.
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Rain
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 15:25:51
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Thank you guys - Bat, those things look amazing. I'll see if I can squeeze them in the budget for the next phase.
Herb - ARC is on the list, but as a very last step though, after I'll have done everything I can w/ the room itself.
For recording audio, I have access to the room next door (my wife's office), a closet just outside the room and the guests bathroom nearby - or the hall itself. But the only thing I see myself tracking there are guitars or maybe a rough vocal track. We have access to better studios w/ better mics and gear for vocals or anything that requires it.
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Rimshot
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 16:00:57
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Rimshot Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
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SongCraft
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 16:26:14
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If this is a 'rental' home, I certainly would not want to mark the walls? and if you want it done cheap?....
At Amazon you can get Clothes Racks for as little as $12 each by Withmor (although these may not be as sturdy as more expensive ones $20+ each.) The $12 rack is height (66") and width (41") adjustable. Racks generally have wheels so you can move them into position anywhere you like in the room. Moveable racks have their benefits; can also double up for as a vocal and amp booth (such as that encave area in your room) so when you need it just move the racks into place or get more racks.
The Blankets that Bat's suggested are good but they're really small. I would instead get grey ' wool' blankets $16.35 (each) made by Rothco (Amazon) and fold each one (doubled folded over) the clothes rack. Additionally, you might also want to sandwich insul- wool bats in between. The clothes racks don't have to be butted up together, so you can limit the amount of racks you need, use for only the critical areas of the room. You have an ARC.
For bass traps: you may have to make those yourself. Heavy wooden base and flexible corrugated sheets for the columns (6ft height). Covered with insul wool bats and finished (covered) with grey blankets. Not much you can do for the ceiling if the house is a rental. Oh well. However, if you want to do it the crazily insane and radical way and if ceiling height is adequately high enough?, then get a 10x10 Gazebo ($150) LOL dress it up with those gray blankets and columns. You'll be the life of the Toga Party 
Post Edited: To clearly explain the height/width of the rack -
post edited by SongCraft - 2013/03/19 17:00:42
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batsbrew
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 17:24:43
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AT
I like those Bat :-) Nice that you can hang and slide them from the looks, tho I imagine it would take some heavy duty wireup.
@ actually, they mount straight to the wall, using this:  simple knob and wall screw set... you overlap the blankets, they come already with metal grommets, it looks pretty pro when you are done. http://www.youtube.com/wa...dded&v=pCOYjqOGVyc
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batsbrew
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 17:27:27
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SongCraft
The Blankets that Bat's suggested are good but they're really small. no, they are not. they are 8 feet long, by 4 and a half feet wide..... and they are designed SPECIFICALLY for sound absorbtion, not for moving furniture. and they are WAY more efficient than foam. i know, i've tried both.
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wst3
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 17:59:07
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batsbrew
and they are designed SPECIFICALLY for sound absorbtion, not for moving furniture.
and they are WAY more efficient than foam.
i know, i've tried both.
Sorta kinda, and sadly the web page for the product is the source of the confusion! I really wish vendors in this space would try to be more accurate! The blanets that Bat is suggesting will provide isolation, or transmission loss, between adjoining spaces - and that's what they are designed to do. They probably won't provide a lot of absorption, except at very high frequencies, and absorption is not even specified... which makes sense. There is a lot of confusion surrounding room treatment. The short version: Room treatments can be divided into two basic categories - soundproofing (isolation or transmission loss) and room behavior, which includes absorption, diffusion, and reflection. I'm not really clear on what the OP is trying to accomplish, but since Bat brought up those blankets let's tackle isolation first. The goal is to prevent sound from entering, or leaving, the space. The ONLY solutions are mass (preferably a limp mass) and an airtight space. Since the later is rather impractical<G>, most folks go with mass. Adding mass to the walls won't be practical since the space is rented, but some mass can be added by using loaded vinyl sheets or loaded blankets - which the referenced product appears to be. Note that you need a LOT of mass to stop low frequency energy, but not too much for higher frequencies. Some of the questions and comments suggest that the OP is looking to simply treat the room to make it more listenable. This may not be as difficult as it first appears. Since the room is small it is not reverberant, which means that only the 'bad' reflections need to be treated. The size also limits the room modes that can build up, meaning there should be few low frequency bumps. If room treatment is the goal I would suggest getting a lot more info on the blankets, since they will not absorb much (according to the published specifications anyway.) But if isolation is the goal they look like a great starting point!
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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SongCraft
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 18:00:11
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batsbrew
SongCraft
The Blankets that Bat's suggested are good but they're really small.
no, they are not.
they are 8 feet long, by 4 and a half feet wide.....
and they are designed SPECIFICALLY for sound absorbtion, not for moving furniture.
and they are WAY more efficient than foam.
i know, i've tried both.
You stand corrected. I hope you will accept my apologies. Yes, I'm sure they are way more efficient than foam. Besides, I would not suggest foam. My preference is wool. Also, I always take it with a grain of salt when some companies advertise their products, usually they tend to exaggerate a little, not that I'm referring to the above mentioned product. I'm just saying. The past week had been painful and restless for me, not being able to get enough sleep does not help. -
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batsbrew
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 18:05:20
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i own the audimute blankets.
i use them for sound control.
not isolation.
only mass will do that.
i offer my personal experience with the audimute blankets, and that is all.
they work, in an area like Rain's room, the best you can hope for, is to tame the acoustics inside the room.
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batsbrew
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 18:06:46
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SongCraft
You stand corrected. I hope you will accept my apologies.
i think you mean 'I stand corrected' heheh i was correct to begin with.....
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batsbrew
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 18:11:23
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wst3
batsbrew
and they are designed SPECIFICALLY for sound absorbtion, not for moving furniture.
and they are WAY more efficient than foam.
i know, i've tried both.
Sorta kinda, and sadly the web page for the product is the source of the confusion! I really wish vendors in this space would try to be more accurate!
The blanets that Bat is suggesting will provide isolation, or transmission loss, between adjoining spaces - and that's what they are designed to do. They probably won't provide a lot of absorption, except at very high frequencies, and absorption is not even specified... which makes sense.
There is a lot of confusion surrounding room treatment. The short version:
Room treatments can be divided into two basic categories - soundproofing (isolation or transmission loss) and room behavior, which includes absorption, diffusion, and reflection.
I'm not really clear on what the OP is trying to accomplish, but since Bat brought up those blankets let's tackle isolation first.
The goal is to prevent sound from entering, or leaving, the space. The ONLY solutions are mass (preferably a limp mass) and an airtight space. Since the later is rather impractical<G>, most folks go with mass. Adding mass to the walls won't be practical since the space is rented, but some mass can be added by using loaded vinyl sheets or loaded blankets - which the referenced product appears to be. Note that you need a LOT of mass to stop low frequency energy, but not too much for higher frequencies.
Some of the questions and comments suggest that the OP is looking to simply treat the room to make it more listenable.
This may not be as difficult as it first appears. Since the room is small it is not reverberant, which means that only the 'bad' reflections need to be treated. The size also limits the room modes that can build up, meaning there should be few low frequency bumps.
If room treatment is the goal I would suggest getting a lot more info on the blankets, since they will not absorb much (according to the published specifications anyway.) But if isolation is the goal they look like a great starting point!
bill, i think you are confused. the blankets are called "sound absorption blankets" not "isolation blankets". and here is some info, right off the link i provided: Audimute Sound Absorption Sheets are not soundproofing blankets, but may indeed reduce volume levels if the space is properly treated. When hung throughout the room, these sheets absorb echoes, reverberation and noise reflection. [class="audimutegreen"][style="color: rgb(58, 77, 7); line-height: 13.1875px;"]Audimute Sound Absorption Sheets have been tested in an acoustic laboratory and have an impressive NRC rating of .70. this is exactly my experience with this product.
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batsbrew
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 18:12:24
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batsbrew
wst3
Sorta kinda, and sadly the web page for the product is the source of the confusion! I really wish vendors in this space would try to be more accurate!
The blanets that Bat is suggesting will provide isolation, or transmission loss, between adjoining spaces - and that's what they are designed to do. They probably won't provide a lot of absorption, except at very high frequencies, and absorption is not even specified... which makes sense.
There is a lot of confusion surrounding room treatment. The short version:
Room treatments can be divided into two basic categories - soundproofing (isolation or transmission loss) and room behavior, which includes absorption, diffusion, and reflection.
I'm not really clear on what the OP is trying to accomplish, but since Bat brought up those blankets let's tackle isolation first.
The goal is to prevent sound from entering, or leaving, the space. The ONLY solutions are mass (preferably a limp mass) and an airtight space. Since the later is rather impractical<G>, most folks go with mass. Adding mass to the walls won't be practical since the space is rented, but some mass can be added by using loaded vinyl sheets or loaded blankets - which the referenced product appears to be. Note that you need a LOT of mass to stop low frequency energy, but not too much for higher frequencies.
Some of the questions and comments suggest that the OP is looking to simply treat the room to make it more listenable.
This may not be as difficult as it first appears. Since the room is small it is not reverberant, which means that only the 'bad' reflections need to be treated. The size also limits the room modes that can build up, meaning there should be few low frequency bumps.
If room treatment is the goal I would suggest getting a lot more info on the blankets, since they will not absorb much (according to the published specifications anyway.) But if isolation is the goal they look like a great starting point!
wst3, i think you are confused.
the blankets are called "sound absorption blankets"
not "isolation blankets".
and here is some info, right off the link i provided:
Audimute Sound Absorption Sheets are not soundproofing blankets, but may indeed reduce volume levels if the space is properly treated. When hung throughout the room, these sheets absorb echoes, reverberation and noise reflection. [class="audimutegreen"][style="color: rgb(58, 77, 7); line-height: 13.1875px;"]Audimute Sound Absorption Sheets have been tested in an acoustic laboratory and have an impressive NRC rating of .70.
this is exactly my experience with this product.
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Rain
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 18:33:23
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Thanks guys.
Already submitted the blanket idea to my wife and she dug it, so we may actually go for it earlier than I initially thoughts.
And to be clear, my intention is to treat acoustics, not to soundproof the place. I have the whole house to myself 8-10 hours a day and I work at very low volume most of the time, anyway.
As I said, besides an occasional electric guitar track, I won't really record much audio, and nothing that loud. It's mostly a songwriting/midi recording/mixing environment.
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wst3
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 18:52:22
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batsbrew
bill, i think you are confused.
the blankets are called "sound absorption blankets"
not "isolation blankets".
and here is some info, right off the link i provided:
Audimute Sound Absorption Sheets are not soundproofing blankets, but may indeed reduce volume levels if the space is properly treated. When hung throughout the room, these sheets absorb echoes, reverberation and noise reflection. [class="audimutegreen"][style="color: rgb(58, 77, 7); line-height: 13.1875px;"]Audimute Sound Absorption Sheets have been tested in an acoustic laboratory and have an impressive NRC rating of .70.
this is exactly my experience with this product.
That may well be, and I'm not debating that. What I am debating is a thoroughly useless, meaningless specification - an NRC of .70 is as meaningless as a frequency response of "20Hz to 20kHz". It tells me nothing! From their web site the product could just as easily be for isolation, and in fact that was my impression. I've not used that product, so I'll leave now...
-- Bill Audio Enterprise KB3KJF
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rtucker55
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 22:11:02
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Just a thought. If you can get by with the blankets to reduce reflections/flutter echos then ARC could possibly be used to correct the nulls and peaks in the listening position. Not a perfect solution but possibly a Good bang for the Buck. It would really help if you could come up with a portable cloud for the desk. I spent a lot of money on room treatment and worked with an acoustician for a couple of weeks and still had issues in the 125-300hz range that we just could not tame without an extensive room modification. I added ARC and those issues were corrected, in the listing area, for a lot less than it would have cost to modify the room. I did need to hang a cloud using hooks screwed into the ceiling joists but the holes can easily be repaired with a little spackle and paint. Really happy to hear you have a new room to work with. I'm sure you'll make the best of it. Kind regards, Rick
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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rtucker55
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 22:12:59
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oops, Sorry for the single paragraph, just posted using Firefox...
Purrrfect Audio DAW here. Wow!...
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Rain
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 22:28:39
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No worries Rick, I've seen much tougher to read. And thanks for the suggestion. In regards to the cloud, yep, that's a possible option.
The idea is that I don't want to drill holes for every little thing - whatever can be put in place using another method w/o compromising too much, that'll be the preferred approach. But if something requires it, no problem.
Greg - in regards to bass traps, I'll be building them myself, so I should be able to customize the just the way I need them. I've budgeted 6 for starters and that was the very first step.
I've been working in untreated room ever since I've started recording and in hotel rooms and such for the last 2 years, so I can be patient and do that stuff gradually, improve things a bit at a time.
I don't have to deliver content for now either, so there's no hurry. I'm mostly writing and learning.
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SongCraft
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/19 23:15:12
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Hi Rain,
I'm sure you're more than capable of getting what needs to be done to suit 'your' needs and like you said; no hurry. Which is good. Plan for the room to look really nice and for what you'll be doing as you said; you don't want to do any drastic.
Considering your needs, several panels placed in the right areas using blankets and curtains (as you said) would do nicely and the bass traps is probably all you need to do.
That alcove area might be nice for a shelving unit and/or display case. For me, I probably use it as an ISO booth.
Post some photos when you get done.
All the best!
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trimph1
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/20 04:00:50
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We have a ready supply of quilts here....some 10' x 10'....
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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losguy
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/27 23:21:41
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Hey Rain, your mixing / producing space has dimensions very similar to mine, even down to the placement of the door! It's the latter point that got my attention - regarding your question about bass traps, or the lack thereof. I figured out that in my smallish space, whatever corners could be covered by traps should be. So I got thick mondo traps (I got 4" thick but you can get them 6") and mounted them in the three corners that I had minus the door. Even with three-out-of-four, it made all the difference that you would expect from adding traps - tightened bass and focused imaging.
I mounted them with a single hook screwed right into the corner of the walls where they meet. The traps had a cord on the back so you could hang them right on the hook, just like a picture frame, except kitty-corner style.
Since you're in a rental space, I'm thinking that the fix-up would be pretty easy. Just fill the hole with joint compound (or filler and then joint compound), sand, prime, and paint. If you don't have a can of your existing paint for touch-ups, your landlord will love you for asking for one!
Happy listening - and by the way, congratulations! (I must have missed the wedding - I haven't been lurking on these forums for a while.)
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Rain
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/29 03:26:08
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Thanks, Carlos. :)
I should be starting to work on the room pretty soon. I wanted to wait until everything was in its place and, w/ the display finally here, there shouldn't be any major change in terms of set up, meaning I'll be ready to start working on room treatment.
I've spent the last week mainly listening to the room, seeing how it reacts. Not that hard but it certainly beats all the other rooms I've had to work in in the last 2 years.
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bitflipper
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/29 12:20:34
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Hi, Rain. Sorry, I'd missed this thread because it started while I was overseas on holiday. Just wanted to add that it isn't necessary to trap every corner, so don't sweat the door. If the other corners are trapped well you'll be OK. Bass traps don't even have to necessarily be in the corners - if space just isn't there for corner traps you can also trap the juncture of walls-to-ceiling, which will do the same thing (albeit somewhat less efficiently) without taking up any floor space.
Regarding acoustical blankets that tout an NRC rating of 0.7 -- look up NRC (noise reduction coefficient) and you'll understand why that measurement is pretty useless for evaluating studio treatments.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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Rain
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/30 14:59:52
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Thanks Bit. That's good to know. :)
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Rbh
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/30 16:01:05
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One thing you'll want to stay aware of is that facing the speakers towards the door end of the room - can create a ( 1/4 wave or so ) reflection that can seriously place the sound out of phase. This is because some first order reflections will reflect off the door area later than off the back wall area. I've seen (heard) results of this that will cause the bass to basically drop out near the center of the room. It ain't pretty and large geometric offsets like this are not treatable with simple bass traps though they most certainly will help. It can affect the entire spectrum though with out them. Just a thought - but you might think about setting up along the long wall opposite the door side of the room - dimensionally there isn't that much of a difference in the long axis as opposed to the short axis.
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Re:Room Treatment - part deux
2013/03/31 16:14:55
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Thanks. I hadn't thought of that but it makes sense I guess.
OTOH, I intend to remove the closet's sliding doors on that side of the room, which should solve that potential issue.
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