Routing question - aux sends

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Rbh
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2018/10/31 01:12:17 (permalink)

Routing question - aux sends

I'm looking for an efficient method to assign a different pre-delay ( per track  - or buss ) to single instance of a reverb. Any ideas for the most efficient way to do this with aux / send routing? Multiple -  per track /buss delay lines are fine, but I want to feed to a single reverb process.

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    stickman393
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/10/31 03:03:42 (permalink)
    I don't understand why a normal SEND to a BUSS wouldn't work for this.
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    Rbh
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/10/31 03:09:12 (permalink)
    What I'm looking for is a different pre-delay from individual tracks to a single reverb instance.
     
    I could take a send from each track to separate delays - then each of the delay outputs would send to a buss with the reverb on it. Just wondering if there was a better or more efficient way to route this.
     

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    lapasoa
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/10/31 13:20:02 (permalink)
    Why complicate things when they are so easy?
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    Rbh
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/01 01:22:27 (permalink)
    lapasoa
    Why complicate things when they are so easy?


    Because simulating realistic positioning in a simulated acoustic space is complicated, and why it's interesting to me. It's ok if you don't understand the question, acoustics - or routing. But your response is rather base.

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    stickman393
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/01 04:16:09 (permalink)
    So, the way I would do this is to set up each "pre-delay" on it's own buss, and then direct those busses to the reverb buss. Then I'd SEND from each track to it's appropriate pre-delay buss.
     
    However, if I wanted to keep the pre-delay close to each track and not clutter up the buss area (it's a legit requirement in my book) then I'd SEND TO NEW AUX on each of the tracks, then point each of the AUX tracks to the reverb BUSS. Essentially it moves each of the pre-delay busses up into a track.


     
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    msmcleod
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/01 09:47:02 (permalink)
    I don't get how using AUX tracks will result in a different pre-delay on a single reverb?
     
    As I understand it, the pre-delay is the delay before the reverb kicks in. Surely this is a property of the reverb plugin itself? I can't see how this could be done without having separate reverb instances, each with their own pre-delay setting.
     
    If however, you've got say 12 tracks and only 3 different pre-delay settings, then I can see the point. In this case, I'd use 3 AUX tracks, each with it's own reverb on it.
     

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    JoseC.
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/01 10:37:50 (permalink)
    Are you using mono, or stereo tracks? You could try using two mono, use a short delay in one of them to experiment with the Haas effect, for spatial placement, and send both to a reverb bus with its own pre delay.
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    reginaldStjohn
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/01 19:40:06 (permalink)
    msmcleod
    I don't get how using AUX tracks will result in a different pre-delay on a single reverb?
     
    As I understand it, the pre-delay is the delay before the reverb kicks in. Surely this is a property of the reverb plugin itself? I can't see how this could be done without having separate reverb instances, each with their own pre-delaysetting.
     

    I think what the original poster is trying to do is delay each track's send to the reverb so that the reverb starts at a slightly different time for each source. If they set a single reverb to have a pre-delay of 0 sec then each source will sound as if it has a different pre-delay. This is one queue to the ear and brain of where the sound source is in relation to the environment..

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    msmcleod
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/01 21:13:48 (permalink)
    reginaldStjohn
    msmcleod
    I don't get how using AUX tracks will result in a different pre-delay on a single reverb?
     
    As I understand it, the pre-delay is the delay before the reverb kicks in. Surely this is a property of the reverb plugin itself? I can't see how this could be done without having separate reverb instances, each with their own pre-delaysetting.
     

    I think what the original poster is trying to do is delay each track's send to the reverb so that the reverb starts at a slightly different time for each source. If they set a single reverb to have a pre-delay of 0 sec then each source will sound as if it has a different pre-delay. This is one queue to the ear and brain of where the sound source is in relation to the environment..




    That's what I suspected.
     
    So a reverb pre-delay is the amount of time between the original dry sound, and the audible onset of early reflections and reverb tail. 
     
    This to my mind is not delaying the signal, then sending to reverb; it's a period where the reverb effect is muted, then the wet mix appears.
     
    To satisfy my curiosity, I set up two busses:
     
    BUS D -> Aux 1 [ Sonitus Reverb, Pre-delay of 250ms 100% wet ]  50% send to Aux 1
    BUS E -> Aux 2 [Sonitus Delay with Single delay of 250ms (100% wet) -> Sonitus Reverb no pre-delay, 100% wet] 50% send to Aux 2
     
    I then got a piano sound and compared the sound to outputting to BUS D vs BUS E.
     
    Although the sound was similar, there was one noticeable difference: the piano's attack transients were present in the reverb for BUS E, but not BUS D.
     
    This leads me to conclude that the reverb's pre-delay is actually a delay before the reverb wet signal kicks in (i.e. it mutes the effect for the pre-delay time), rather than delaying the signal and applying the reverb.
     
    If however, I add another bus / aux, this time with no delay and no pre-delay on the reverb, the reverb tail dies 250ms sooner. So at least in the case of the Sonitus reverb, adding a pre-delay of 250ms extends the effective reverb decay time by 250ms.
     
    To prove this, I extended the delay time of the "no pre-delay" reverb by approx 250ms... and all the busses' reverbs then decayed at the same time.
     
    So the conclusion is (at least with Sonitus reverb), that delay + reverb is not the same as reverb with pre-delay.
     

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    Base 57
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/01 21:40:11 (permalink)
    Clone the tracks you want to send to your artificial space. Route the cloned tracks to a bus and put the reverb in that bus. Set the reverb to 100% wet with 0 pre-delay. Use the volume fader on the cloned tracks to set the amount of reverb send and then move the cloned clips backward in time to achieve the desired amount of pre-delay. 
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    Rbh
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/03 12:08:24 (permalink)
    Thanks gents - theses are interesting takes on the routing.
    Initially, my view was to look at this from the perspective of a stereo pair of mics in the rough center of a reverberate field - what I'm curious about is:
     
    1. Whether it remains a one to one relationship on the timing of driving the reverb field.
    2. Can you simulate a difference in distance - not by delaying the dry signal - but delaying the reverberant signal.
    3. Can filtering ( EQ ) offer ques to distance - purely in respect of the reverbs field. This is where the seperate busses might be the better routing option.
     
    I've never really liked the idea of using multiple reverbs. It creates a cluster in my opinion. And the singular pre-delay for entire feed to a reverb does allow cleaning up a mix but interferes with defining depth when applying wet and dry delays to tracks. So, I'm looking to apply delays and panning to set distance and spacial location - but also depth information via pre delay reverb and filtering to help define depth of field.
     
     
     

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/03 16:03:39 (permalink)
    Just a thought,, What about exploring Surround Sound options...There must be reverb plug ins that work in 3D? 
     
    This is also something new I am seeing in Sound articles. Object Based Mixing. 
    https://www.audioadvice.c...und-dolby-atmos-dts-x/

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    Rbh
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/03 18:24:39 (permalink)
    So, the way I would do this is to set up each "pre-delay" on it's own buss, and then direct those busses to the reverb buss. Then I'd SEND from each track to it's appropriate pre-delay buss.
     
    However, if I wanted to keep the pre-delay close to each track and not clutter up the buss area (it's a legit requirement in my book) then I'd SEND TO NEW AUX on each of the tracks, then point each of the AUX tracks to the reverb BUSS. Essentially it moves each of the pre-delay busses up into a track.


     


    This was my thought. I wasn't clear on just where to control it from. You articulated it better than I could ask the question.  :)

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    Rbh
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/03 18:31:59 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    Just a thought,, What about exploring Surround Sound options...There must be reverb plug ins that work in 3D? 
     
    This is also something new I am seeing in Sound articles. Object Based Mixing. 
    https://www.audioadvice.c...und-dolby-atmos-dts-x/


    I never thought of digging into surround processing, I have a ton of good reverb plugs - but I don' think I have one specifically designed for surround -. Though maybe there's other routing options within surround that will get me there. Thanks.

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    Cactus Music
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/03 19:19:11 (permalink)
    Well I thought it was worth mentioning as the whole idea behind it is to create 3D soundscapes for immersive sound. I think this is what you're trying to achieve is it not? 
    Placing instruments left and right is easy,,, now move it forward or back and things get interesting. 

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    Rbh
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/03 22:14:58 (permalink)
    Cactus Music
    Well I thought it was worth mentioning as the whole idea behind it is to create 3D soundscapes for immersive sound. I think this is what you're trying to achieve is it not? 
    Placing instruments left and right is easy,,, now move it forward or back and things get interesting. 


    Yes -   I can set-up a surround - I don't I'd want to mix all my material to surround format. It's more about researching how to localize instruments in a stereo field.

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    John
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    Re: Routing question - aux sends 2018/11/06 13:10:50 (permalink)
    Try the Sonitus Fx Surround. You may need a surround bus for it. 

    Best
    John
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