Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses

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scottcmusic
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2018/01/25 20:38:07 (permalink)

Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses

I have recently become fascinated by running my tube guitar amps into a load box, and then into a DAW running an impulse response to simulate various speaker cabinets.
 
Why? Because from my research, it seems to be very good sounding, but also, I have these three great tube amps, two of which I hand built, that I would love to record with more. The reason I haven't done so is, I live in an apartment and the neighbors tend to frown on cranked up 6L6s for some reason. Another reason is, you can crank up your big boy tube amps late into the night since it is basically running direct into your DAW. So, you know, a fifty watt Marshall cranked up to the sweet spot at 2:30 am. What's not to like?
 
Anyway, I am new to this, and only have a basic understanding of the process from watching Pete Thorn videos on YouTube. I gather I need a load box like this https://www.suhr.com/electronics/tone-tools/suhr-reactive-load/
 
But I believe you also need one of your DAW plugins to have the ability to run these Impulse Response programs that give you that final touch of believability. I don't understand where the IRs fit in.
 
What would be an effective way to do this in Sonar X3? Do any of our native plugins run IRs?

it appears i've fallen off the tune-wagon yet again ...

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#1

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    scook
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/25 20:55:08 (permalink)
    PerfectSpace is bundled with X3 Studio and Producer. TH2 Producer had an IR based cab. Both of these plug-ins can load 3rd party IRs.
     
    I have no experience TH2 SONAR included with basic version of X3 and Studio. It may also have the IR cab too.
     
    There are quite a few 3rd party IR plug-ins. Some are free.
    #2
    Maarkr
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/26 02:32:43 (permalink)
    I've run guitar cab IRs that I found on the internet for free in convolution reverbs and they add a nice touch.

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    #3
    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/26 18:04:50 (permalink)
    Thanks. Never thought about a third party plugin. That may be the ticket.
     
    I'm also checking out the Line 6 Helix ... which is something I wanted anyway ... but I still find it a bit pricey for now.

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    stratman70
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/26 19:58:57 (permalink)
    Well, I sure would check out the Fractal AX8 while looking at the Helix. 
     
    But anyway, there are plenty of FREE ir loaders. I have used Perfectspace for irs and NADir. 

     
     
    #5
    MakerDP
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/27 20:01:40 (permalink)
    Also check out the Torpedeo Wall of Sound plugin. What I really like about using it is the fact that you can actually audition the IRs before you buy them on your own tracks! Selecting mics and positioning is also MUCH simpler than just using Ownhammer, RedWirez or Celestion IRs. You just select the mic you want and drag it around to the right position in the GUI for tweaking instead of having to sort through hundreds of IR files, auditioning dozens in order to find the right one.
     
    I use the Suhr Reactive Load primarily into Torpedo WOS, although sometimes I do use Nadir with Ownhammer IRs.
     
    However, these days I find myself mostly using S-Gear or micing my cabs again, but I don't live in an apartment. 
    #6
    tlw
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/27 21:24:43 (permalink)
    Palmer's reactive load boxes and speaker simulating DIs are worth considering.

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    #7
    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/29 16:36:54 (permalink)
    The Palmers seem really cool ... and expensive. The ones I checked out were almost $900 chops ...
     
    Do any of these load boxes have switchable ohm setting to accommodate amps and cabs of different flavors? The one I was looking at (suhr) seems to be set up only for amps with 8 ohm speakers.
     
    I have a hand wired mojo tone versions of a Super Reverb and a Tweed Deluxe (both 8 ohm), and then I have a blackfaced Champ Amp which is 4 ohm. What would be sweet is if I could use any of those amps with the load box.
     
    Anybody using Positive Grid Bias Amp to run IRs? I don't think it's free ... but looks pretty nifty ... I think it has a build your own amp in a modular way kind of mode. You pick preamp configuration, tube types, biasing types (fixed, cathode), etc ... and build out a virtual amp.
     
    I'll check into perfect space ... I should already have that. I think that was a convo reverb ...

    it appears i've fallen off the tune-wagon yet again ...

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    #8
    Brian Cadoret
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/29 16:46:23 (permalink)
    Hi,
    I've recently been using my Mesa Boogie 22 Caliber with speaker IR's for the same reason, the amp is really loud for a small wattage amp!
    Luckily the Mesa Boogie has an effects loop so I take the output from that, which is effectively the pre-amp stage with all the EQ, then into my DAW turn down the Master output on the Mesa Boogie to zero and voila!! 
    I've been using the Cabinets in TH3 and the supplied TH3 Cabinet IR with third party IR's with good results.
    #9
    rsinger
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/29 16:54:34 (permalink)
    Webers do. I use their load dumps with low wattage amps (5 watt) - volume on the load dump is around 7 or 8 out of 10, enough to take the edge off, but it doesn't effect the dynamics or tone. 

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    #10
    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/29 17:28:09 (permalink)
    The Two Notes box has three different versions that you can get to match your amp's ohm rating ... so you need three of them (or two in my case) ... but they are less expensive than others options I have seen like the Suhr.
     
    https://www.sweetwater.co...gpEEAQYASABEgI0V_D_BwE

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    tlw
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/30 16:05:27 (permalink)
    Palmer’s PLB2x8 handles two 8 ohm amps or one 4 ohm or one 16 ohm. I’ve been using one plus a PDI09 speaker emulator/DI for several years without any problems, even with cranked amps.

    http://www.palmer-germany...-2-x-8-Ohms-PLB2X8.htm

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    #12
    MakerDP
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/30 19:40:41 (permalink)
    you don't need to worry about a 4 to 8 ohm mismatch or an 8 to 16. It's when you go crazy like 2 to 16 that you can start running into trouble.
    #13
    tlw
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/30 19:51:29 (permalink)
    I would not mismatch the speaker/load impedance where valve amplifiers are concerned. Not unless you don’t mind buying a new amplifier anyway.

    Some valve amps might tolerate a mismatch so long as it is in the “right direction”. Others will simply fry their output valves and/or output transformer. A valve amp will usually stand a mismatch where the load is less than the rated one, even a short across the speaker terminals (which would kill most transistor amps pretty much instantly). But those conditions will only be tolerated for so long and will put additional strain on the power amp side of the circuit.

    Unless you really, really know what you are doing and that the particular amp you have is OK for a mismatched load, stick to the output impedances it is built for. Unlike solid state amps which can handle a wide range of imedances you won’t get any more volume out of valves by reducing the load in any case. The output transformer will be tapped for specific loads and will deliver full power to any load it’s tapped for.

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    #14
    MakerDP
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/01/30 20:14:08 (permalink)
    That's a myth tlw.
     
    Mismatching speaker loads by one direction is totally safe and is in fact a tone-shaping tool that we all have in our arsenal.
     
    (I design and build tube amps by the way.)
     
    #15
    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/02/05 22:08:53 (permalink)
    I found a great article that not only goes in depth on Impulse Responses, it also tells you how to record your own. And, pretty much anyone can do this ... looks pretty straightforward.
     
    Say you have an ambient space that sounds great to you ... you can model that space by sending a sine sweep signal into the room and then recording it as a WAV file. Programs that load and utilize IRs do the rest. This totally must be what a modeling amp does ... like for instance the Kemper ... wouldn't be surprised if the process described in this article is, sort of, the poor man's version of what an amp like a Kemper or Line 6 does ...
     
    http://designingsound.org/2012/12/recording-impulse-responses/
     
    Good read.
     
    On another note ... just ordered the Two Notes Captor box ... I am hoping to record some sound tests and post results here once the unit arrives.

    it appears i've fallen off the tune-wagon yet again ...

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    orangesporanges
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/02/06 05:43:28 (permalink)
    I have had great success running into a Rivera Rockcrusher and using Native instruments Guitar Rig with nothing loaded into the plugin but whatever cabinets I want to use. It has a "Control Room" feature that lets you blend cabinets. and mics. The rock crusher is an attenuator that lets you dial up the  power amp section until it blends well with the preamp section.Then just run it through its line out. I've found that diming everything on the amp kinda turns the sound to mush.When you find that spot in the power amp where it just starts to really work, wow! I use a Rivera 5512 50w combo, or a little Crate 2110 class A for EL84 sound. That little sucker can't get clean, but roars when it's dirty. Best $125 I ever spent. Oh, the Rock Crusher is 8 or 16 ohms via front panel switch. Runs super cool too. The amps get warm though.

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    jude77
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/02/06 17:02:37 (permalink)
    The Impulse Response thing is a whole new rabbit hole to crawl down, but it's a fun one!
    Here are a few to try:
    http://kazrog.com/
    http://redwirez.com/products.jsp
     
    Have fun!

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    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/02/06 22:07:53 (permalink)
    Never thought of seeing what Guitar Rig has to offer since that came bundled with Sonar. I will look into that.
     
    This Ownhammer place looks very promising. I already see a package for my Super Reverb and my Tweed Deluxe. Awesome. I think I will try these in Perfect Space and see what happens.
     
    https://www.ownhammer.com/

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    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/02/08 16:04:11 (permalink)
    I got my Two Notes Torpedo Captor box and hooked it up ... it was then that I realized something that should have been obvious ... in order to run live, real time plugins (in this case, PerfectSpace) you need to do live input monitoring. I have no experience with live input monitoring. The Impulse Responses are running in the plugin, and if you want to hear to the sound of your cabinet via the IR as you play and lay down a track, you will be dealing with some sound card latency.
     
    I have no idea how to make this manageable. I've always just used a POD XT Live as my main guitar modeler and effects. Latency is not an issue when everything is running off separate hardware. So, how do I get this delay time manageable enough to get me to believe I am playing through an actual amp?
     
    I have a Focusright Scarlett 18i20 ... a Dell Inspiron 500 with a i7 processor. Plenty of RAM ... how are people managing that half second or so of latency? I should know this, but again, never normally need to record this way. What are ideal buffer settings for the ASIO driver? I took it down to 2.0 ms and I still heard a bit of delay ...
     
    But other than this snafu ... I am already getting pretty addicted to using my real amps. It's so great because you can also use your live pedalboard in your recordings. It just has a great feel to it as well. My SuperReverb sounded awesome cranked to about 6 with none of my apartment neighbors any the wiser. But, if I have to use the onboard cabinet sim that came with the Torpedo Captor I will most likely send it back to Sweetwater and get a more expensive box that lets me pack my own IRs onto it. I really like these OwnHammer Fender IRs ...
     
    Help ... who does input monitoring as they record? MakerDP? How were you using the Wall of Sound plugin without latency?
     
    I also see you can monitor your soundcard before it gets to the DAW and eliminate this latency ... but then, you don't hear the cab effect live as you play. Hmmmmm. I'm gonna need another box ... the Two Notes CAB pedal maybe ... getting pricey though!!!
    post edited by scottcmusic - 2018/02/08 21:40:48

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    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/02/12 16:34:59 (permalink)
    Check this out ... stratman70 mentioned it above. It's called NADir and is totally free and it runs on low CPU power and is 64-bit. Using the bundled PerfectSpace covo reverb I was never able to input monitor a plugin live, but using this to load IRs seemed to work much better. You can even load two IRs at once ... like say you want a mic on the speaker and then one around back of the amp ... you can even pan those two mics. I was pretty tickled with this.
     
    https://www.kvraudio.com/...t/nadir-by-ignite-amps

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    scottcmusic
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    Re: Running Speaker Cabinet Impulse Responses 2018/02/12 17:36:29 (permalink)
    Here's my first sound test using the Two Notes Captor box with my Super Reverb amp. I am also playing through my live pedalboard. You can hear me stepping on different pedals. I am using a '66 Duo Sonic II as the guitar. You can hear my wah and my delay pedal at various points. I love the aspect of this where I can record through my live pedalboard ... that really makes it fun.
     
    One thing to note ... I have a mismatch going on with regards to impedances on the amp and speaker load box ... I should be using a 2 ohm box (they don't actually make these) but I am using an 8 ohm box here. I am looking to rectify this going forward.
     
    The final aspect of this tone is the OwnHammer 10 inch Jensen speaker Impulse Response.
     
    While this is, by no means a perfect guitar tone, I am happy in that it does seem to sound quite a bit like my live rig. So that's something. Also, I feel like I am achieving at least comparable tones as I did using my old Line 6 POD XT. Plus, real amps are just more fun ... the reverb tank on my Super Reverb seems to record really well.
     
    http://scottcmusic.com/wp...o-Notes-Capor-Test.mp3

    it appears i've fallen off the tune-wagon yet again ...

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