Helpful ReplyRunning a Studio Sonar computer isolated

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slumbermachine
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2015/11/10 04:14:36 (permalink)

Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated

Anyone run sonar on a studio computer you leave disconnected from the internet? I'm starting to think about having my studio system completely shut off from the net. I'll only connect it for updates and maintenance. I can just use another system for everything else. That way I just have a pure dedicated sonar workstation. Or is that being paranoid, like not going outside cause you might trip on a crack?
 
 
 
#1
Bristol_Jonesey
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 05:11:10 (permalink)
The only time my DAW is connected to the internet is for updates & downloads

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SiTheMon
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 07:03:03 (permalink)
I keep mine off the t'interweb. Its evil!!!

Its nice to be important but its more important to be NICE :-)
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Kylotan
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 07:11:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Joey Adams [Cakewalk] 2015/11/10 17:51:50
Generally speaking, if you keep your software up to date (Windows and browser especially), don't install Java or Flash in your browser, leave User Account Control on, have your firewall enabled, don't install anything unless you're confident about the source and have double-checked everything in the installer, and don't visit dubious sites, you are almost certainly going to be fine online all of the time. There aren't hackers waiting to connect to your PC to attack it - pretty much every infection that happens comes from the user accessing a website with outdated technology or by them being careless with what they install.

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bitflipper
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 07:26:59 (permalink)
It's not paranoia if they're really out to get you.
 
Actually, fear of a hostile internet isn't the main reason to disconnect. Steps can be taken to protect your computer from evildoers, such as not using your DAW for general web browsing and email. The compelling reason to take your DAW off the net is that network interfaces and drivers think they are the most important components in your computer and have no problem sucking valuable CPU cycles away from audio processes, which for normal computers is way down on the list of priorities.


All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. 

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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 07:52:18 (permalink)
When recording just disable the network adapter if you so wish. Get the real story though by downloading latencymon, process monitor and process explorer. Disable services and startup applications you don't need. Optimize! I strongly urge you to install antivirus, just make sure exclude the sonar file paths and sonar.exe process from real time scanning.

Another thing to consider is dual boot, that way you can run your non DAW related stuff on another OS.
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/11/10 08:06:40

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MandolinPicker
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 07:58:07 (permalink)
I dual boot my machine. Using Windows 10 and disabled all networking, firewall, virus scan, etc.Windows runs considerably faster with all of the networking stuff turned off. I also don't like Microsoft getting reports from my machine on everything I do, so now it can't get them. System is much more stable, too.
 
Use Linux Mint for web surfing and most every thing else.

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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 08:07:10 (permalink)
MandolinPicker
I dual boot my machine. Using Windows 10 and disabled all networking, firewall, virus scan, etc.Windows runs considerably faster with all of the networking stuff turned off. I also don't like Microsoft getting reports from my machine on everything I do, so now it can't get them. System is much more stable, too.
 
Use Linux Mint for web surfing and most every thing else.


Strongly recommend you don't disable your firewall and antivirus unless you never ever connect to the internet and never ever update You will be if updating Sonar and running windows update I assume. Win10 updates are making the OS faster and more stable (an OS that has yet to fully mature). In theory viruses and malicious activity can be detected even after something has been downloaded and installed (several layers of security).
post edited by Doktor Avalanche - 2015/11/10 08:18:03

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#8
AT
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 09:57:45 (permalink)
I have my wireless off and only connect to the internet via a dsl land line.  And then I only update the computer (win 7) and programs and then disconnect.
 
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mettelus
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 11:13:31 (permalink)
I pretty much have mine connected full time without issues. As Bit mentioned the real issue is the networking card (more specifically Wi-Fi if connected to a router), but when I rebuilt this machine in July I found the biggest culprit is a wi-fi router doing an "auto-detect" of new devices. That can be disabled, is totally unnecessary, and sends a query pulse every 4 seconds that is a "high priority" process. My machine is hardwired to the router, but that query is atrocious. I also have anything "auto" disabled on this machine (or set to manual start) - type in "Services" in Windows search and can do this there, but be advised some things (especially Adobe) will reset status to "Automatic" the first time you manually run them. Between "Services" and "msconfig" you can catch 99% of things you don't want running on there own, and an internet connection does give some of these reason to "go active" on you. Easiest fix is to disconnect when using the DAW if desired.
 
As long as you judiciously use the internet, there is no need to get overzealous with things, but disconnecting when tracking can be useful to remove that batch of resources.

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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 11:18:33 (permalink)
I use an Ethernet cable so don't have any issues. If your router is anywhere near it I would recommend (In the end I cabled all the rooms in my house, no regrets).


Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
#11
THambrecht
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 11:28:31 (permalink)
Our Computers are in a local network but disconnected from the Internet.
To make connection for updates - or disconect - we change the gateway (network adapter) adress to the dsl-router, or to a wrong IP adress.
For permanent Internet I have a separate laptop.
 
 
 

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#12
Beepster
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 11:43:06 (permalink)
I only connect my DAW when I want to update things or install new software. I built this machine specifically for audio and have a laptop for my general intertubing (which I can keep in the room with my as I work at the DAW if I want to research something or get the ole intertube itch).
 
When I DO go online though I turn my antivirus back on BEFORE I plug in my network cable (I specifically did not install a wifi adapter on the system) then the first thing I do is update the antivirus. Then I'll update Windows (particularly the security updates). I may also do a quick scan of the system.
 
My internet settings are set to the maximum protection levels and I use NoScript and Adblock+ in my browser which blocks EVERYTHING except the bare bones of a website. I only enable scripts absolutely necessary to accomplish my updates. It's all the third party domains that allow the virus and nasty critter to creep in (at least on trusted/secure/reputable sites).
 
Before I download anything (but sometimes after and before I install) I create a Windows system restore point so if something wonky happens I can get back to where I was (much quicker than system image and doesn't require a huge chunk of storage space... but not as resistant to full on failure).
 
Paranoid? Hellz ya... but it's the internet. Things happen and even the "trusted" software manufacturers put all sorts of dumb crap that auto connects to do "helpful" things. When I'm at the DAW I'm doing music stuff and I expect the DAW to focused on exactly that. Not pissing around in the background having a little chat with god knows what server.
#13
tlw
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 14:49:19 (permalink)
Kylotan
There aren't hackers waiting to connect to your PC to attack it



There are however worms that are waiting and they don't need you to do anything. They are usually controlled by botnets which scan IP addresses looking for open ports they can exploit, often using a buffer overflow attack to insert themselves into the PC. After which they download all sorts of stuff and add your PC to their owner's botnet. That sort of vulnerability is detected in current operating systems surprisingly frequently.
 
Connecting to the internet at all without being behind a firewall is a no-no, especially on a Windows PC - not necessarily because Windows is inherently less secure (though in some ways it is) but because nearly 90% of PCs run Windows so it makes most sense for the bad guys to concentrate on breaking into Windows machines.
 
The risk is particularly high if Windows and other applications aren't updated so don't have the security fixes applied. A major UK government department had a huge infection from the Blaster worm some years ago. Three years after MS had issued the update that fixed the security hole Blaster exploited. Despite that corporate IT still tends to be very wary of updating anything just in case it has unforeseen repercussions on business-critical applications. Instead they usually use industrial strength firewalling at the point their network connects to the internet. 

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MandolinPicker
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 16:33:44 (permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
Strongly recommend you don't disable your firewall and antivirus unless you never ever connect to the internet and never ever update You will be if updating Sonar and running windows update I assume. Win10 updates are making the OS faster and more stable (an OS that has yet to fully mature). In theory viruses and malicious activity can be detected even after something has been downloaded and installed (several layers of security).



No plans on updating Windows 10. It runs just fine and the only things I do on it are Sonar (X3e) and Microsoft Access (2007). When it was on Win 8 and then 8.1 it kept slowing down more and more with each update. I'll skip the updates to keep it running consistent. And as you can see, there is no need to update Sonar (no longer being updated by Cakewalk) and previously there was not a single update that improved the performance of Office 2007. I'll just keep it as is and disconnected.

The Mandolin Picker
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"Got time to breath, got time for music!"- Briscoe Darling, Jr.
 
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#15
Adq
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 16:35:40 (permalink)
Always connected. Antivirus, firewall, I can download something, I can even watch IP-TV on my PC and use Sonar simultaneously if I want, and it doesn't affect sound and performance. So for me isolation sounds like paranoia, yes. But it is my home computer.
#16
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 17:30:03 (permalink)
MandolinPicker
When it was on Win 8 and then 8.1 it kept slowing down more and more with each update.



Probably because you were being selective about updates or some other unrelated factor. Win 8.x kept releasing performance patches which did exactly as they said on the tin, worked for me the OS just got faster and faster. It's been like that since Windows 7 (earlier incarnation of the OS often did suffer from the behavior you described). One of the reasons MS forced updates upon people in Windows 10 was because machines on some random patch level were far harder to fix and improve (unpredictable), rather than a whole load of machines on exactly the same patch level.
 
Anyway good luck with that strategy . You will never know what the future improvements may bring ;).
As you are sticking with X3E I get your strategy however...
 

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Kylotan
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 18:11:44 (permalink)
tlw
There are however worms that are waiting and they don't need you to do anything. They are usually controlled by botnets which scan IP addresses looking for open ports they can exploit, often using a buffer overflow attack to insert themselves into the PC. After which they download all sorts of stuff and add your PC to their owner's botnet. That sort of vulnerability is detected in current operating systems surprisingly frequently.

Zero-day exploits for current operating systems and browsers are quite rare. The majority of the time, the problem is fixed before there's any evidence of anyone being affected by it. You might argue that it's not worth taking even that risk. I'd argue you're better off staying online and getting updates regularly. There was a point a few years back where Windows machines could expect to be attacked within 30 minutes of installation, in that time between getting up and running and getting patched. If you're regularly leaving weeks or months between connecting for patches, you risk experiencing a smaller version of that each time you connect, as the cumulative patches get queued up.
 
Connecting to the internet at all without being behind a firewall is a no-no, especially on a Windows PC - not necessarily because Windows is inherently less secure (though in some ways it is) but because nearly 90% of PCs run Windows so it makes most sense for the bad guys to concentrate on breaking into Windows machines.

I would recommend having the firewall on, but it's worth people understanding that it's only possible to connect to services (maliciously or not) that are actively listening for connections. If you're diligent about shutting off unnecessary services then it's just as secure as having no firewall. Most people don't have the time or interest to learn that diligence which is where firewalls help.
post edited by Kylotan - 2015/11/10 18:22:31

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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 18:27:10 (permalink)
Kylotan
Zero-day exploits for current operating systems and browsers are quite rare. The majority of the time, the problem is fixed before there's any evidence of anyone being affected by it. You might argue that it's not worth taking even that risk. I'd argue you're better off staying online and getting updates regularly.

 
I would argue that if you do this then you don't really need to do that... doesn't apply. i.e. I locked the door so it's fine to keep the windows open. Security is all about having several layers of protection.
 
Kylotan
If you're diligent about shutting off unnecessary services then it's just as secure as having no firewall. Most people don't have the time or interest to learn that diligence which is where firewalls help.



And make sure you don't use a web browser or have anything that polls the internet, or run any updating programs which in turn may have vulnerabilities, or for that matter anything that polls the internet.
 
Firewalls not only block what's coming in, but quite often what is going out.
If you are running internet without a firewall, that's complete madness IMHO, even if you think you have disabled everything that could get to it there are still vulnerabilities.
 
Cheers...

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SMcNamara
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 18:33:10 (permalink)
On a related point, I have a USB wifi adapter that I would plug in, update and then "disconnect" from the System Tray icon.  Then unplug the USB adapter.  I sense I could go into the Device Manager, right-click and disable a USB port that the adapter sits in but how do I know which USB item in Device Manager would be correct?
 
Thanks,
 
Steve

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#20
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 18:51:11 (permalink)
SMcNamara
On a related point, I have a USB wifi adapter that I would plug in, update and then "disconnect" from the System Tray icon.  Then unplug the USB adapter.  I sense I could go into the Device Manager, right-click and disable a USB port that the adapter sits in but how do I know which USB item in Device Manager would be correct?
 
Thanks,
 
Steve




In your case the quickest way to simply unplug the USB cable from your laptop. Then it will no longer appear in device manager anyway.
 
The other way is to right click and disable the adapter from:
Control Panel->Network and Internet->Network Connections
 
Ta,

Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.6,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),2 x 1TB SSD (Samsung EVO 850),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5. Rap Pro,Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1,Addictive Keys,Waves Silver,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist,Acronis True Image 2015.
#21
jpetersen
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/10 21:26:44 (permalink)
Always offline. We have slow unreliable internet.
I download at work and take the files home on a thumb drive.
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SMcNamara
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 00:38:35 (permalink)
Doktor Avalanche
SMcNamara
On a related point, I have a USB wifi adapter that I would plug in, update and then "disconnect" from the System Tray icon.  Then unplug the USB adapter.  I sense I could go into the Device Manager, right-click and disable a USB port that the adapter sits in but how do I know which USB item in Device Manager would be correct? 
Thanks,
Steve


In your case the quickest way to simply unplug the USB cable from your laptop. Then it will no longer appear in device manager anyway.
The other way is to right click and disable the adapter from:
Control Panel->Network and Internet->Network Connections
Ta,


Thanks Doktor.
post edited by SMcNamara - 2015/11/12 00:49:33

Sonar Platinum | Windows 10 64-bit | 8 cores | 16GB Ram | Focusrite Scarlett 2nd generation 18i20 interface | too many guitars, way too much software  | Presonus Eris 8 Monitors (thinking about a Presonus T8 sub!) 
#23
sharke
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 01:13:25 (permalink)
The only reason I would disconnect is if I had a slow system which needed all the clock cycles it could get. I have a reasonably beefy machine and have no trouble running Sonar, without glitches, with the firewall and Windows Defender running. This is with very heavy projects containing lots of CPU-hungry synths and effects. 
 
The only people I've ever heard express paranoia about being connected to the internet are music producers. I have no idea why this is. I get that some people like to stay disconnected to minimize performance issues, but look around, there's a whole world of tech and creative pros out there who rely on their systems to run all sorts of complex and powerful software, yet they stay online without issues. In most cases their jobs and businesses rely on it. Personally I like to think that with almost 20 years of internet experience under my belt, I've instinctively learned the do's and don'ts of online security. You can tell just by looking at my desktop, which has remained relatively free of flying toasters and dancing gorillas for at least 15 years 

James
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#24
Glyn Barnes
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 03:14:50 (permalink)
One point I often make is being offline alone does not protect you from viruses. In a non music environment we had a situation where computers not connected were being infected from removable media. They were vulnerable as they were not receiving security patches and AV updates. This can be managed of course and you have to be very careful with thumb drives etc.

My DAW stays on line (ethernet) but just for updates etc. I have not noticed any performance issues. I use another PC for email, browsing and most downloads. Both have stayed uninfected. A third PC the grand kids use needs cleaning quite often. They click on anything. I suspect links in social media for most of it.

Your router is the front line of defence, as long as you have the security set up it will block most intrusion attempts. If you log in to the router and view the logs you will probably see evidence of attempted intrusions.

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#25
JClosed
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 03:40:03 (permalink)
The problem is not only that you can catch a virus. The real problem these day's is the increase of ransom-ware. Imagine your costumer comes by to see (or better - hear) how things are progressing, but you can't do anything because all your data is encrypted and thus unreadable - Including all your costumer's data. You have to pay (most times in bit coin) to get your stuff unlocked again.
 
It does not hurt to be on the safe side of things. It is not really paranoia to restrict Internet access. There are really people out there that want to get into your computer. They are not interested what is in your data (mostly). They only want to strip you of your money.
#26
Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 12:29:18 (permalink)
JClosed
The problem is not only that you can catch a virus. The real problem these day's is the increase of ransom-ware. Imagine your costumer comes by to see (or better - hear) how things are progressing, but you can't do anything because all your data is encrypted and thus unreadable - Including all your costumer's data. You have to pay (most times in bit coin) to get your stuff unlocked again.
 
It does not hurt to be on the safe side of things. It is not really paranoia to restrict Internet access. There are really people out there that want to get into your computer. They are not interested what is in your data (mostly). They only want to strip you of your money.


That's just spreading paranoia imho. Just buy a decent antivirus and make sure your firewall precautions work, and patch your machine.

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#27
tlw
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 12:49:00 (permalink)
SMcNamara
On a related point, I have a USB wifi adapter that I would plug in, update and then "disconnect" from the System Tray icon.  Then unplug the USB adapter.  I sense I could go into the Device Manager, right-click and disable a USB port that the adapter sits in but how do I know which USB item in Device Manager would be correct?


In Device Manager you don't need to disable the USB port. The network adaptor will have an entry of its own and that's the one to disable. Simply unplugging it won't necessarily result in the driver being unloaded or stop it trying to poll the (missing) interface.

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#28
tlw
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 12:56:40 (permalink)
On the subject of wifi network adaptors, they're notorious for causing problems in Windows DAWs and video editing workstations. Surely there must be at least one company that can turn out an interface and driver that doesn't hog the PCI bus, or MS could fix the problem if it's Windows fault.

Apple use intel hardware but OS X doesn't have the wifi dpc latency problem at all and never has. I'm tempted to use bootcamp to put Windows on one of our Macs just to see if the problem is there when Windows is running on Apple hardware and using Apple-supplied drivers.

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#29
jamesg1213
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Re: Running a Studio Sonar computer isolated 2015/11/12 13:01:23 (permalink)
nearly 90% of PCs run Windows so it makes most sense for the bad guys to concentrate on breaking into Windows machines.

 
Possibly, but the proportion of PC's connecting to the internet is now very small compared to ten years ago. Windows PC's used to account for 95% of all machines connecting to the internet. I read that's down to around 15% these days, with everyone using their phones and tablets to surf etc. Would it then follow that Windows DAW's are less likely to encounter problems?

 
Jyemz
 
 
 



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#30
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